This is not really true. I can size deprime on my progressive with a lube die way more 223 cases an hour then I can with my single stage. I then process the brass all I want and head back to prime powder and bullet these cases on the progressive which takes way less time then doing the same on a single stage. For pistol calibers and plinking ammo there is no good reason to prep the brass to much. For my pistol I have no need to clean primer pockets or mess with the flash holes, the same holds true for my AR fodder. Know if I want high end pistol or rifle hunting loads then I will do all sorts of things to the brass to make it the best it can be and most of this I do load with the single stage. Any way you look at what you do with your brass a progressive will load more rounds an hour then a single stage just by the nature of doing multipule steps at a time.
How fast is your progressive really?
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This is not really true. I can size deprime on my progressive with a lube die way more 223 cases an hour then I can with my single stage. I then process the brass all I want and head back to prime powder and bullet these cases on the progressive which takes way less time then doing the same on a single stage. For pistol calibers and plinking ammo there is no good reason to prep the brass to much. For my pistol I have no need to clean primer pockets or mess with the flash holes, the same holds true for my AR fodder. Know if I want high end pistol or rifle hunting loads then I will do all sorts of things to the brass to make it the best it can be and most of this I do load with the single stage. Any way you look at what you do with your brass a progressive will load more rounds an hour then a single stage just by the nature of doing multipule steps at a time.
Blue68f100
Member
I learned on a RCBS SS press 35+ yrs ago. Knowledge learned here made it pretty easy for me to move to a progressive. But the main reason I moved to a progressive was due to due to a bad back limiting how long I can sit and tennis elbow. With a SS requiring 4-5x the stroke of the ram you can see how that can hurt a bad elbow. Add to the fact I'm limited as to time I can be up the progressive made sense. Now I'm mechanical incline, perfectionist so looking after the finer details was easy for me. So working out problem and re-engineering weak areas on press operation is a natural. What is easy for me may be very hard for you.
Yes and NO. You can learn on a progressive using only 1 station at a time. Straight wall ammo is the easiest to learn on. I also recommend med to slow burn powders to fill the case and give a lot of elbow room to compensate for errors. The largest mistakes noob's make is improper die setup. Mess up here no need in doing the next step.
Another problem is buying equipment that is not reliable and you are working on it all the time. Buy Quality once and don't look back. With this said you will see more threads on Hornady LNL-AP and Dillon 550b and 650. Both have a NBS warranty. These are the front runner when it comes to Progressive. Yes there are others but they don't fall into the same class as these two do.
Now if you have a mentor to guide you through the process will make the learning curve a lot shorter. When I started loading the internet was just a dream, so finding solutions where limited. Most of my learning school of hard knox, and books. I have helped several to learn the reloading skill/knowledge. Even skilled knowledgeable SS uses have problems with progressive.
So yes you can start on a progressive. But only use it as a SS press for the first 1000 rounds. If your able to run 1000 in SS mode and not have to adj any dies you have every thing adjusted right, and moving to progressive should be painless.
There is no perfect AP press, they all have issues/problems. Even $30k machines have problems, but the time between failure is a lot longer since these are main production machines. Most all home use presses have priming issues, but can be made reliable. It all into the finer details on how smooth a press will run.
With my mechanical skill I picked the LNL-AP for it fit my budget and I like the simplency of the press. At that time they were offering 1000 free bullets which make the press cost like a SS press. I do not care for companies that set the price across the board on their equipment. Parts and accessories are normally a lot higher over the competition. Are they worth it, you have do decide that. 25 years ago you only had 1 to choose from, Dillon. Now that they have competition the tables are turned a little. Do they make good equipment, yes. But so do others cheaper.
The bottom line is your decision. Only you know your aptitude when it comes to mechanical equipment and your capability to solve problems. In any case stick with straight wall ammo for the start. Bottle neck ammo require a lot of case prep, die setup is more critical. But all means stay away from high density powder that is ultra fast. These type powders have damaged more guns than any other. I do not use them in 35+ years.
off my soap box.....
Yes and NO. You can learn on a progressive using only 1 station at a time. Straight wall ammo is the easiest to learn on. I also recommend med to slow burn powders to fill the case and give a lot of elbow room to compensate for errors. The largest mistakes noob's make is improper die setup. Mess up here no need in doing the next step.
Another problem is buying equipment that is not reliable and you are working on it all the time. Buy Quality once and don't look back. With this said you will see more threads on Hornady LNL-AP and Dillon 550b and 650. Both have a NBS warranty. These are the front runner when it comes to Progressive. Yes there are others but they don't fall into the same class as these two do.
Now if you have a mentor to guide you through the process will make the learning curve a lot shorter. When I started loading the internet was just a dream, so finding solutions where limited. Most of my learning school of hard knox, and books. I have helped several to learn the reloading skill/knowledge. Even skilled knowledgeable SS uses have problems with progressive.
So yes you can start on a progressive. But only use it as a SS press for the first 1000 rounds. If your able to run 1000 in SS mode and not have to adj any dies you have every thing adjusted right, and moving to progressive should be painless.
There is no perfect AP press, they all have issues/problems. Even $30k machines have problems, but the time between failure is a lot longer since these are main production machines. Most all home use presses have priming issues, but can be made reliable. It all into the finer details on how smooth a press will run.
With my mechanical skill I picked the LNL-AP for it fit my budget and I like the simplency of the press. At that time they were offering 1000 free bullets which make the press cost like a SS press. I do not care for companies that set the price across the board on their equipment. Parts and accessories are normally a lot higher over the competition. Are they worth it, you have do decide that. 25 years ago you only had 1 to choose from, Dillon. Now that they have competition the tables are turned a little. Do they make good equipment, yes. But so do others cheaper.
The bottom line is your decision. Only you know your aptitude when it comes to mechanical equipment and your capability to solve problems. In any case stick with straight wall ammo for the start. Bottle neck ammo require a lot of case prep, die setup is more critical. But all means stay away from high density powder that is ultra fast. These type powders have damaged more guns than any other. I do not use them in 35+ years.
off my soap box.....
beatledog7
Member
Muddydogs (re: #51):
I agree you can used revised processes to allow for processing of brass, and, though I didn't even know such a thing existed, I can see how a lube die would speed up resizing.
No doubt a progressive is ultimately faster; my point was that how much faster is process driven.
I agree you can used revised processes to allow for processing of brass, and, though I didn't even know such a thing existed, I can see how a lube die would speed up resizing.
No doubt a progressive is ultimately faster; my point was that how much faster is process driven.
What I do with my Dillons is cheat. I'm a big believer in Hornady Oneshot. I'll stop every so often and spray the cases and start pulling the handle again.
Without doing this I'd be drained from the 1050 in an hour. That press is faster then I can go and I've seen 1200 in an hour. But after an hour I have to slow down, to old anymore.
Without doing this I'd be drained from the 1050 in an hour. That press is faster then I can go and I've seen 1200 in an hour. But after an hour I have to slow down, to old anymore.
I use a Hornady L-N-L AP with the optional case feeder and can easily load one round every five seconds but ten rounds per minute is more reasonable. I start with 100 primers in the primer tube so I need to stop after ten minutes to refill the tube. If I allow five minutes for that step I can comfortably produce 400 rounds per hour without too much effort. 400 rounds is plenty for a USPSA/IDPA match or practice sesson at the range. I don't have any flipped primers, squibs or any other issues with my reloads so I'm more than happy with 400 rounds per hour. I've seen more than a few issues in matches due to bad reloads and have even given ammunition (my reloads) to other competitors so that they could finish a match.
Peter M. Eick
Member
With my Pro2000, I can crank out around 650 rounds an hour but I rarely do it. I like to do around 400 to 450 per hour.
This is my hobby. I am not doing it to finish a task, I do it because I enjoy the results and the science aspect of what I have done.
This is my hobby. I am not doing it to finish a task, I do it because I enjoy the results and the science aspect of what I have done.
wanderinwalker
Member
I usually estimate my rate of production on the LEE Pro-1000 at 300 an hour. I don't run it with a case or bullet feeder, which slows down production but I don't mind too much. I'd still rather load 500 rounds of .38 Special on the Pro than try to do 200 rounds of match .223 ammo with a single-stage.
Definitely!
I just spent an enjoyable evening converting a Redding 10-X powder measure to operate on my Hornady L-N-L. I did not even load a single round--zero rounds per hour.
Many thanks to 1858 and rsmith0399 for the tips to make the modifications.
I will give it a whirl tomorrow.
dmazur
Member
I have a 550b and I get around 300 rds/hr for pistol and 200 rds/hr for rifle.
This time includes the time I spend setting up case cleaning and trimming bottleneck cases, and labeling and loading plastic cartridge boxes.
Actual time sitting at the press is more like 400 rds/hr pistol and 300 rds/hr rifle, but I haven't timed myself with a stopwatch.
I know can do a couple thousand rounds over a weekend, basically two long evenings.
As to the comment that progressive presses limit case prep, I don't believe that is true. Some models may discourage that, but you can usually work around the problem.
The 550b for example, has no auto-index to disable, so you can leave the toolhead full of the normal complement of dies and just use Station 1 by itself. After you have a bin of prepped brass, all you have to do is insert the case at Station 1, push forward to prime, then index before pulling the handle (if you like to do all kinds of primer pocket prep) or just index before pulling the handle (if you believe primer pocket prep is a waste of time.)
As far as complexity = "too many things going on at the same time", I suppose you have to have a certain amount of faith in your setup, and then check to make sure it is still in adjustment.
For example, I check powder charge and COL every box (every 50 rds for pistol and every 20 for rifle). For bottleneck cartridges, I check every case after resizing in a cartridge headspace gauge (for length to shoulder datum and trim length), then toss the long ones into a bin for trimming. When I label and fill a cartridge box, I check every primer for "below flush". When I trim, I check with calipers periodically to make sure the trimmer is still in adjustment.
So far, I've found the 550b to be remarkably consistent. But I'll admit to running the press "one round at a time" for quite a while until I believed it was consistent. And, while you are doing this, there is only one thing happening at one time.
This time includes the time I spend setting up case cleaning and trimming bottleneck cases, and labeling and loading plastic cartridge boxes.
Actual time sitting at the press is more like 400 rds/hr pistol and 300 rds/hr rifle, but I haven't timed myself with a stopwatch.
I know can do a couple thousand rounds over a weekend, basically two long evenings.
As to the comment that progressive presses limit case prep, I don't believe that is true. Some models may discourage that, but you can usually work around the problem.
The 550b for example, has no auto-index to disable, so you can leave the toolhead full of the normal complement of dies and just use Station 1 by itself. After you have a bin of prepped brass, all you have to do is insert the case at Station 1, push forward to prime, then index before pulling the handle (if you like to do all kinds of primer pocket prep) or just index before pulling the handle (if you believe primer pocket prep is a waste of time.)
As far as complexity = "too many things going on at the same time", I suppose you have to have a certain amount of faith in your setup, and then check to make sure it is still in adjustment.
For example, I check powder charge and COL every box (every 50 rds for pistol and every 20 for rifle). For bottleneck cartridges, I check every case after resizing in a cartridge headspace gauge (for length to shoulder datum and trim length), then toss the long ones into a bin for trimming. When I label and fill a cartridge box, I check every primer for "below flush". When I trim, I check with calipers periodically to make sure the trimmer is still in adjustment.
So far, I've found the 550b to be remarkably consistent. But I'll admit to running the press "one round at a time" for quite a while until I believed it was consistent. And, while you are doing this, there is only one thing happening at one time.
Lost Sheep
Member
Right on, Dmarzur. That's my problem. I want to watch each step individually.
On another thread I extolled the virtues of being able to overcome that "hairs of the back of my neck" feeling with the power of intellect. I can do it with some things but not with my powder measure or primer feed. Wierd.
You're right, of course. (As I am, too, I believe.) I do what I am comfortable with and confident of, and nothing more until I mature some more as a handloader.
Lost Sheep
dmazur
Member
Lost Sheep -
Sorry. It wasn't intended as an attack on any method of reloading or any type of equipment.
I suppose what I was trying to say (and failed) was that a certain faith in the machinery seems to be necessary. As is some level of "quality control".
And this applies regardless of the type of press in use.
In other words, I'm not sure I would watch everything with any more scrutiny than I do now, once I had set it up, even if I was using a single stage press.
For me, and my comfort level, setup is everything. I feel pretty good once I've done that and cranked out a few test rounds, which get measured six ways from Sunday.
However, because of Mr. Murphy, I stop and check periodically just to make sure something unexpected didn't jump in.
I caught one once. Powder measure linkage disassembled itself, and I did a box of .44 Magnums with errors. I caught it with the powder throw test, which I do for every box. So I stopped, checked, found the loose linkage and had to pull down 50 rds.
(Side note: I cannot understand how someone can load 500 rds with loading mistakes, unless they were trying something new and had not tested it for feed in a semi-auto pistol or something similar. For that, of course, you load one box and try it out. Then if you like that flavor, you order a gallon.)
I believe understanding process is what is important.
I would not say that there is any "reloading maturity" required to use a progressive press. At least, no more than is required to use any press.
I have read too many posts of folks who have managed to get into trouble with a single stage press, so obviously simpler equipment is no guarantee of safety.
I congratulate you on your patience in trying to teach reloading to others. I have read your exhaustive equipment recommendations with admiration for your attention to detail. I sometimes envy your ability to explain complex concepts in simple language.
So no, it was not an attack. My apologies.
Sorry. It wasn't intended as an attack on any method of reloading or any type of equipment.
I suppose what I was trying to say (and failed) was that a certain faith in the machinery seems to be necessary. As is some level of "quality control".
And this applies regardless of the type of press in use.
In other words, I'm not sure I would watch everything with any more scrutiny than I do now, once I had set it up, even if I was using a single stage press.
For me, and my comfort level, setup is everything. I feel pretty good once I've done that and cranked out a few test rounds, which get measured six ways from Sunday.
However, because of Mr. Murphy, I stop and check periodically just to make sure something unexpected didn't jump in.
I caught one once. Powder measure linkage disassembled itself, and I did a box of .44 Magnums with errors. I caught it with the powder throw test, which I do for every box. So I stopped, checked, found the loose linkage and had to pull down 50 rds.
(Side note: I cannot understand how someone can load 500 rds with loading mistakes, unless they were trying something new and had not tested it for feed in a semi-auto pistol or something similar. For that, of course, you load one box and try it out. Then if you like that flavor, you order a gallon.)
I believe understanding process is what is important.
I would not say that there is any "reloading maturity" required to use a progressive press. At least, no more than is required to use any press.
I have read too many posts of folks who have managed to get into trouble with a single stage press, so obviously simpler equipment is no guarantee of safety.
I congratulate you on your patience in trying to teach reloading to others. I have read your exhaustive equipment recommendations with admiration for your attention to detail. I sometimes envy your ability to explain complex concepts in simple language.
So no, it was not an attack. My apologies.
Lost Sheep
Member
Not at all, dmazur
Dmazur,
No attack was felt and no apology needed. I do appreciate the sentiment and especially your compliment on my other posts. Thank you.
I didn't have that much faith in my progressive, and watched every stroke like a hawk. Especially after I once had to pull 35 rounds (like you, I loaded progressive in continuous mode and stopped every 50 and checked everything) to ensure I found every defective round. My fault. I ran my powder measure dry and did not notice. My bad. My embarrassment. I hope it does not diminish me in anyone's eyes.
Re-reading the last paragraph, I see now that it is I who does not deserve the level of trust required of a progressive press user, not progressives in general. I guess it is good that I know my own limitations. I will try not to project them onto others. Mr. Murphy is not just an acquaintance. I suspect he may be a relative of mine.
On the "maturity" term. Perhaps I should have used the term "expertise". It was late and my vocabulary app was stalled out (to mix metaphors).
Anyhow, matching user skill and capability to the level of sophistication and complexity of the equipment is important. But, as you observe, no guarantee of safety. I believe it just makes it easier to maintain.
I enjoy your insights, knowledge and observations as well, dmazur. Thank you for you kind words and for you contributions to the forum.
Lost Sheep
Dmazur,
No attack was felt and no apology needed. I do appreciate the sentiment and especially your compliment on my other posts. Thank you.
I didn't have that much faith in my progressive, and watched every stroke like a hawk. Especially after I once had to pull 35 rounds (like you, I loaded progressive in continuous mode and stopped every 50 and checked everything) to ensure I found every defective round. My fault. I ran my powder measure dry and did not notice. My bad. My embarrassment. I hope it does not diminish me in anyone's eyes.
Re-reading the last paragraph, I see now that it is I who does not deserve the level of trust required of a progressive press user, not progressives in general. I guess it is good that I know my own limitations. I will try not to project them onto others. Mr. Murphy is not just an acquaintance. I suspect he may be a relative of mine.
On the "maturity" term. Perhaps I should have used the term "expertise". It was late and my vocabulary app was stalled out (to mix metaphors).
Anyhow, matching user skill and capability to the level of sophistication and complexity of the equipment is important. But, as you observe, no guarantee of safety. I believe it just makes it easier to maintain.
I enjoy your insights, knowledge and observations as well, dmazur. Thank you for you kind words and for you contributions to the forum.
Lost Sheep
oldfortyfiveauto
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I've got 3 Dillon Square Deals....I run about 300-400/hour depending on caliber. 32H&R/327 mag and 45acp run the fastest. 380's the slowest. Have to baby the machine to keep from slinging the powder out when it indexes.
With my 550b I run about 400/hour with bottleneck cases.
Shotgun is another story. 4 MEC 600's and 2 9000's. The 9000's run about 350/hour in either 12 or 28ga. The 600's are only used for load development or small batches.
The thing that really controls the speed is all the supporting stuff like having primer tubes preloaded and all your components handy. Poor bench layout can make the jobs miserable.
With my 550b I run about 400/hour with bottleneck cases.
Shotgun is another story. 4 MEC 600's and 2 9000's. The 9000's run about 350/hour in either 12 or 28ga. The 600's are only used for load development or small batches.
The thing that really controls the speed is all the supporting stuff like having primer tubes preloaded and all your components handy. Poor bench layout can make the jobs miserable.
Pete D.
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per hour and preparation
I use progressives as a means to an end. Less time loading means more time shooting.
That being said....I load 50 rounds in ten minutes comfortably.
(two Lee Pro 1000s, a Dillon SDB, a Dillon 550, a MEC 9000, a Mec Grabber, a MEC 650.)
What I find misleading about rate per hour info - in advertising and in this thread - is that preparation time is not considered as part of time spent.
Cyclic rate is one thing; actual time is another.
Pete
I use progressives as a means to an end. Less time loading means more time shooting.
That being said....I load 50 rounds in ten minutes comfortably.
(two Lee Pro 1000s, a Dillon SDB, a Dillon 550, a MEC 9000, a Mec Grabber, a MEC 650.)
What I find misleading about rate per hour info - in advertising and in this thread - is that preparation time is not considered as part of time spent.
Yeah, how about that? Isn't loading up primer tubes or trays part of the process, part of the time spent? You have a Dillon press and you want nine primer tubes filled......how long does that take to do (unless you have a machine for it)? Add that time to your production and what is your rate then? (Load one primer a second into a tube and 900 of them will take at least 15 minutes, realistically even longer.....add that in to your time spent actually pulling the handle). In just about any press that I know of, you have to add primers every 100 rounds; that slows you down.
Cyclic rate is one thing; actual time is another.
Pete
dmazur
Member
Absolutely. In giving my estimates I tried to include everything, including case trimming, labeling boxes, etc.
While the question about trimming wasn't raised, I found I was spending so much time trimming that it seriously decreased production rates. And, while a Giraud is quite an investment, it gets the rate back up to where I wanted it.
So, yes, a progressive press isn't a universal answer to increasing reloading production rates.
650 w/case feed:
Cyclic rate is 1080 RPH (18 RPM). Never timed myself from start to finish, but estimating 20 minutes to fill the measure and top off once, fill eight primer tubes and empty the measure, production rate would be 720 RPH...and I believe 20 minutes to be on the high side.
Production rate - 720 per hour (from opening to closing the powder locker).
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