How hot without a chrony?

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Axis II

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Just wondering how hot you guys push a round without shooting it over a chronograph?

Woodchuck season is here and I'm just not getting the groups I would like from my .224 55gr Noslers or 50gr V max. I see a lot of posts about benchmark and h335 about being very close to or at max for the best groups. Right now stopped at 24gr benchmark and cci450 and see no issues whatsoever with primers.
 
The chronograph means very little to me except for checking standard deviations. The brass and primers tell me what I need to know about what is safe and what isn't. I didn't own a chrono for 80% of my reloading life.
I get just a hair worried with the heat we get around here. I worked all the way up with h322 or h335 and it was like 95 degrees outside and I was like 6 tenths from max but man it was a sweet load but locked that gun up tighter than fort knox. I pulled the rest and stuck with the lower velocity more accurate charge. right now 23-23.6gr of benchmark shoots awesome but I'm thinking its a hair slow for 300yards and expansion.

All the benchmark accuracy nodes I'm seeing online are max or 3-6 tenths away.
 
I’m another in the camp which has seen the chronograph is essentially meaningless as a gauge for pressure. The chrony tells me something valuable about my external ballistics, but what it means for internal ballistics is GROSSLY overstated, typically by a “middle aged” generation (now more of an “older generation”) of reloaders who were convinced by reloading manuals 40+ years ago.

Muzzle velocity may be a reasonable indicator of relative pressure between two loads with the same powder within the same rifle (higher velocity with same rifle and same powder means higher pressure), but it tells you next to nothing about your actual pressure relative to SAAMI standard or book values. If you suddenly jumped a big gap in velocity, it would be indicative of a pressure spike, but even then, it only tells you something REALLY bad just happened - but what if you only grew a little in pressure and velocity, but crossed over the max SAAMI limit?

Chrony’s are for trajectories, not for pressures...
 
The chronograph means very little to me except for checking standard deviations. The brass and primers tell me what I need to know about what is safe and what isn't. I didn't own a chrono for 80% of my reloading life.
You lost me on that standard deviation thing. I even googled it and still lost :)

I just wanna shoot woodchuck from now-August and don't want to have pressure issues.
 
Short answer of SD is the average difference in velocity of your Chronographed shots for your load. ES or extreme spread is the maximum difference in velocity between shoots.

I do use my chronograph as one piece of information while working up loads, brass, and primers are my primary indicators. Stiff bolt lift is a "stop now" sign, usually....primers that fall out of your brass....that's an oh...sh...I'm going home sign....

If you want to borrow a Chrono I can send you my eyeball unit. I never use it anymore, unless I'm tuning in a bow.
 
You lost me on that standard deviation thing. I even googled it and still lost :)

I just wanna shoot woodchuck from now-August and don't want to have pressure issues.

Standard deviation is basically just the consistency of velocity from shot to shot. Say if you have a load that shoots between 2800 and 2900 fps it will generally have more vertical spread at longer ranges than a load that ranges between 2840 and 2860 FPS.

In any case, a chronograph is not a pressure gauge. You need to learn to observe other tangible signs such as flattening of the primer, cratering around the firing pin indent, and case head expansion to learn what is safe and what is not.

Also keep in mind pressure signs are dependent on the pressure of the specific cartridge your working with. Pressure signs are very easy to see on the primer with high pressure cartridges such as a 223 or 270. However you would blow your hands off before you started getting cratered primers with a 45-70.
 
Short answer of SD is the average difference in velocity of your Chronographed shots for your load. ES or extreme spread is the maximum difference in velocity between shoots.

I do use my chronograph as one piece of information while working up loads, brass, and primers are my primary indicators. Stiff bolt lift is a "stop now" sign, usually....primers that fall out of your brass....that's an oh...sh...I'm going home sign....

If you want to borrow a Chrono I can send you my eyeball unit. I never use it anymore, unless I'm tuning in a bow.
There is a guy at the club that mentioned he had one and I thought about getting ahold of him or asking someone else to and see if we could meet up there and me use it but I kind of don't want to go though all that. I also thought about asking the club to purchase one for member use but kind of need a good reason. I just cant see buying one to use the thing 2-3 times. I've got so much benchmark and cci 450 I could load 1k rounds so once I find something I like ill just stick with it.

I appreciate the offer Wolf but I would be afraid something would happen to it. My terrible luck id shoot the thing. lol. Another reason I haven't asked this guy to bring his.

I cant bring myself to go above 24grs its freaking me out with this stupid seating bullets deeper due to the short throat, bolt locking up last summer, etc.
 
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I use the chrony as part of load development. It has helped with some cartridges where I was nowhere near the velocity I should be getting. I traced that back to having thinner brass and a batch of powder that just didn't perform as the last. It has also shown me loads that I felt were to hot as well as SD and ES.
 
cratering around the firing pin indent,
Just wanted to mention that cratering, and even blown primers can be a mechanical issue with excessive gap between the firing pin and channel.
I have that issue with one of my 700s, it will crater with starting loads, and blow primers before hitting any other pressure signs. Switching to magnum primers fixes the issue to a degree, but it still craters pretty bad.
 
Lol, if you shoot the Chrono, just don't send it back.....:p
I've kinda wondered how that happens, at least at short range, but I know alot of people have done it.
 
Standard deviation is a textbook statistical massage. It is an indicator of uniformity. I have gotten the most use out of it determining how SLOW I can load a pistol powder before burning gets erratic.

Extreme spread is more use to the rifle shooter at appreciable ranges. Your fastest and slowest rounds are likely to strike fartherest apart.

Rocky Gibbs said that a maximum load was the most that would allow loading the cases 10 times before primer pockets loosened. He saw a wide spread with source and recommended specific lots of military match brass for the very top loads.
One more recent gunziner is happy with 5 cycles.
 
I may be an odd ball here.
I'll set the chrono ~10' from the muzzle for pistolas.
Backup a few feet for rifle.
Chrono and target in both cases are in alignment btw.
 
I had a chrono for a little over a year. Then, a friend of mine shot it.... He paid cash for it on the spot, so it was ok.
I thought it was an okay tool, and I did learn a little from it.

But I think to use it as a guidepost, I.E.- "this load should be at X FPS", is a mistake.
If a book says it'll be at X FPS, then that data could lure you into unsafe territory, if the load doesn't actually reach the claim.

I haven't replaced it, and I probably won't. I like to find my loads using the classic signs. Cycling characteristics, brass condition, and even the voodoo of reading primers... And of course, where is it accurate?

It's like a tachometer in my car. Kinda neat, but I'm not using it to tell me when to shift.
 
ohihunter asked:
Just wondering how hot you guys push a round without shooting it over a chronograph?

I had been reloading for 13 years before I got my chronograph. A chronograph tells you nothing about chamber pressure, so it has no bearing on how close to maximum I go with a load.

The load development process I follow is to begin with a starting load that is a consensus of published data and then work up incrementally until I get:
  • Signs of excessive pressure (in which case, I back down to a prior load that did not show excess pressure).
  • Maximum load.
  • A load that functions the gun reliably and is accurate.
Since getting a chronograph, I chronograph five shots from each "rung" on the "ladder". This is so I know (within the limits of the chronograph) the velocity of the load and where it stands vis-a-vis the published maximum.

For example: Say the consensus of the books is that the Starting load should deliver 2,000 fps and the Maximum load should be 2,800 fps. If I hit an accurate "rung" on the "ladder" at a velocity the chronograph says is, say, 2,700 fps, I'll probably stop right there and standardize the load. Even if I assume that the chronograph is right and the velocity is really 2,700 fps and not 2,643 or 2,769, trying to wring out an additional 100 or so fps AND find an equally good accuracy node right on the edge of 2,800 fps is probably not going to be worth the effort.
 
I've been reloading since 1975 and I've never owned a chronograph... because I'm a cheap grump.

Standard deviation is a textbook statistical massage. It is an indicator of uniformity.

Yup. Oversimplified, if you shoot a group and get an average velocity and an SD for your load, the SD is the average difference of each of the shots' velocities from the group's overall average. (Hey you mathematicians-- stop cringing.)
 
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A chronograph tells you nothing about chamber pressure, so it has no bearing on how close to maximum I go with a load.

I strongly disagree. Pressure and velocity go hand in hand. A chronograph won't tell you the exact chamber pressure, but it is the best way to get a close approximation without expensive equipment.

The brass and primers tell me what I need to know about what is safe and what isn't.

Visible brass and primer issues don't even show up in rifles until you reach 70,000 PSI, which is WAY over pressure. This is the LEAST reliable way to predict pressure. Primers can also crater with loads well below max. That will depend on the exact primer used and the bolt face and firing pin on your individual rifle.

Loading near max loads without a chronograph is like driving a car without a speedometer on a road with a 70 mph speed limit; just an alarm that sounds when you reach 100 mph.

If your load manual says that 40 gr of powder under a 100 gr bullet @ 3000 fps is a max load and will generate 55,000 PSI then you can be pretty sure that if you're getting 3100 fps with 40 gr powder that you are OVER 55,000 PSI. No you won't know the exact pressure, but if you are waiting on flattened primers to show up that won't happen until you reach 70,000 PSI.

You also have to account for different rifles and different barrel lengths. If the data in the load manual is from a 24" barrel, and I have a 20" barrel then I'd have to consider this. Depending on the cartridge I'd probably consider 2900 fps, maybe less, as the max load instead of 3000 fps. In some rifles you might reach 3000 fps at 38.5 or 39 gr powder instead of 40. If that were the case then I'd consider that powder charge as the max safe load in that rifle. In another rifle you may not reach 3000 fps until you get 40.5 or 41 gr of powder. I don't advise doing that however. While it may be safe in one individual rifle, it may not be in another.

My goal is to produce sub MOA groups at the fastest safe speed. I use my chrono to measure speeds to let me know when I'm approaching being over pressure. Most of the time I find the speeds I get are very close to the predicted speeds in the manuals. Taking into account barrel length, and differences in individual rifles. Most of the time I end up getting the accuracy I want anywhere from 1 gr under to 1/2 gr over what the book says is max, but none of my speeds exceed what the manual says is a max load.

Only once, with one rifle, using one powder did I run into a problem. I was well under a max load so I went up 1/2 gr. This load was still supposed to be well under a max load, but my velocity jumped considerably and I was nearly 100 fps faster than I should have been even with a max load. And I was still 1.5 gr under that. There were no primer or brass issues yet, but I was clearly overloaded with that combo. I switched powders and found what I was looking for at safe pressures.

That one incident paid for my chronograph and convinced me of their value. I could have easily stopped at 1.5 gr under what the manuals said was a max load and still been over pressure without knowing it. With every other rifle and load I've ever used I could have taken the load data from the manual, worked up to a max load and been perfectly safe. But I would have had no way to know for sure that it was safe without the chronograph. Priced at, or under $100 having one offers peace of mind that is well worth the expense in my opinion.

Being able to calculate trajectories is nice, but secondary in my view.
 
I’m slightly over book max with some of my rifles just to get to the next accuracy node. If I reference some older books then I’m sitting at the top of the charts. Like another poster said, chrony isn’t good for much other than SD of a load which also tells you when you are at your most consistent. I haven’t shot any of my rifles over a chrony, probably never will because I have no need for it. No hard bolt lift, no brass extrusion, no primer issues...keep on rollin.
 
. If I reference some older books then I’m sitting at the top of the charts.
Some of those old loads are now known to be over pressure.

Primers can indicate high pressure, and primers can lie. So many times when you see primer issues, you are way over where you should have stopped.
Chronos are useful, and are as good as the operator, but they don't read pressure.

Y'all be careful out there. :)
 
I loaded for decades without a crony. Just learned to look for pressure signs. I have no problem working up to max and beyond. Some printed load data is very conservative, some not. Every gun is unique on how it it responds to a particular load. I have seen loads where 1 barrel was 100+ fps faster than a identical gun with the same load, even at staring loads. So velocity is not a indication of over pressure. I do have a crony and its a useful tool but in no way it knows what the actual pressure is in the chamber. If you use one enough you will develop the expertise/knowledge to know when your reaching the upper end of the pressure. But you also need to be able recognize when there is a problem with the gun or primer. I've run into bad lots of primers, it happens if you handload long enough. Even switching primer mfg can give you problems, as well as lots.

To answer is: You can work up to max and beyond safely without a crony. Just go up slowly looking for pressure signs. Once you see them you need to back down a notch or two.

Load data is just that. A recommendation of what the publisher (mfg) did in his equipment and set of conditions. Does not mean you will get anywhere close to what he got with a different setup. Some use test chambers while others use real guns.

I've always worked up loads for the best accuracy. You do not need a crony for that. But it is a tool that can help guide you through the process.
 
I've been wondering about this topic as well. I am only loading pistol cartridges right now, and have been stopping below max loads, and everything has been fine. But I haven't bought a chronograph yet. It's mostly because I want a Labradar. Been wondering if I've been playing with fire not having one.

Good to read opinions on the matter.
 
I loaded for a long time before I ever owned a chronograph. When I was a kid I loaded 357 magnum well above published load data, working up in small increments and watching for signs.

I had already “changed my tune” by the time I bought my first chronograph. Instead of taking a 357 mag and loading it to 41 mag power levels, I just download a 44 mag to 41 mag levels.

It’s young people that want a 500 hp 4 cylinder that is stressed to its limits, an old guy will have a 500 hp bigblock V8 that's not stressed at all.
 
A chronograph, a copy of Quickloads, some careful measurements and a willingness to study up on some internal ballistics (not trivial math) can get you pretty close on the pressure if that is what you are after and will to lay the ground work.

Without those tools I stay within published data, with those tools I will work loads up from scratch.

That said for the most part I use my Chrono to make sure my pistol ammunition is making Power Factor.
 
Velocity is a function of at least: peak pressure, pressure curve, barrel (pitch, diameter, surface finish), leade, bullet construction, and brass (volume, tension, etc).

It's incorrect to use the absolute value of velocity to estimate pressure until you've correlated them by direct pressure measurement, and hold the other factors constant (or correlate them too). In short, a crony will not tell you pressure, unless you've already measured pressure.

Read the data, look at the brass, and increase charge in conservative increments.
 
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