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25 Yard Accuracy

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by kngflp, Aug 9, 2005.

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  1. kngflp

    kngflp Member

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    I never really shoot pistols past 7 yards. I was reading another thread about group size, and people were showing all of there nice groups at 25 yards. My best groups are usually a couple of inches or so at a distance of 7 yards. I usually do ok at IDPA night, but is that good enough. I have standard sights on all of my guns, the few times I have pushed a target out far I have trouble even seeing the bullseye. Is there somthing wrong with me? Do I need professional help? Am I unsafe to carry a gun? I shoot mostly DA guns maybe this has somthing to do with it.
     
  2. blacksuit

    blacksuit Member

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    I think its kinda of like the ole fishin stories, they get better and better the more times they are told. 25 yards makes it pretty hard for for anyone to have some of the groups I have seen posted on the net. I for one am a pretty good shot but having the bull's eye blown out isn't going to happen for me or most others. Just my 2 cents :cool:
     
  3. Mongo the Mutterer

    Mongo the Mutterer Member

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    Blacksuit -- if you put your pistol in a Ransom rest you could do it, so could I, and so could kngflp.

    A DA revolver for me is a problem past 7 yrds (except for my Glock 19).
     
  4. charby

    charby Member

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    I also don't like to shoot must past 15 yrds with a handgun. At 25 yrds I can hit a milk jug most of the time, so I think I am doing ok. I figure this is good enough to kill a deer with my .357 magnum.

    I have seen in person some pretty impressive groups at 25 yards with a handgun, but they are from a rest and fired single action through a revolver. I personally think that a person should fire without a rest and get good at it. This being because when you need to use that gun outside the range more than likely you are not going to be using a rest.

    Charby
     
  5. gringolet

    gringolet Member

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    actually...

    I sight most of my 4 inch and better adjustable sight handguns for 25 yards...and have a model 57 that is remarkably accurate at that range with a hot loaded light bullet handload.
     
  6. mattw

    mattw Member

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    Handguns are just difficult to shoot well by design. You have nothing to steady your aim with. Its all about practice. Not everyone can be on the USMC Pistol team. I am happy when i keep them in the 9 ring at 25 meters.

    Somewhere a guy with a handlebar mustache and a sig P210 is laughing at all of us while he pops off 100 meter bullseyes from his yard-chair while smoking a pipe.
     
  7. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Some of you folks should attend an NRA outdoor Bullseye Tournment. They shoot one-handed, usually with iron sights - althought optical sights are making inroads, at 25 and 50 yards. They also shoot timed fire (5 shots in 20 seconds at 25 yards, and rapid fire (5 shots in 10 seconds at the same distance.)

    A tournament is set up into three stages, using .22 pistols, centerfire (.32 through .45) and .45 caliber handguns.

    It is not unsusal to see 10-shot, timed fire groups in one ragged hole, with perhaps two or three holes outside the main group. Sometimes you see a group with no holes outside the main group. :what:

    As for double action shooting with revolvers - the trouble is that too few are left in this day of autoloaders who know the right way too do it. Law enforcement officers used to shoot the PPC (Practical Pistol Course) at ranges of 7 to 50 yards with revolvers that had been converted to double-action only, and it required an "X" ring inside the 10-ring to break the ties.

    This idea that you can't hit anything beyond 7 yards with a handgun is ... well ... pure bull. :evil: :neener: :D
     
  8. pwrtool45

    pwrtool45 Member

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    It's important to note that many of the targets you see posted are fired from a rest of one sort or another, just as Mongo says.

    At 25 yards, offhand at a pace roughly approximating NRA Timed Fire I can do 3.5 - 4.0 inch groups with my service-class (Sig P220 or S&W 681/686) pistols. There's a whole world of difference once you get up off the bench. This is why a 3/4 MOA marksman off the bench can flat out miss a deer at 200 yards. This is why Jack O'Connor is deserving of so much respect-- not because he was such an outstanding rifleman, but because he was such an outstanding field rifleman.

    The following was cut and pasted from this URL and describes the procedure for 25-meter Olympic rapid fire pistol.

    That's a 4.0" 10-ring. At 25 meters. With a highly accurate .22 target pistol. Should be easy judging by all those groups you see in the net, eh? :D

    edited to add: As Fuff points out, there's also the Bullseye shooters. Of course, IME Bullseye shooters are in congress with the Beast, so I can't offer much insight there. This may or may not be exacerbated by my lack of owning a properly attenuated pistol. :p
     
  9. capbuster

    capbuster Member

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    Most quality handguns will deliver decent groups at 25yds. If you shoot over a rest,you can find out what is possible with that pistol with that load. Your consistency at 7 yds, shooting double action, will probably take care of most of your defensive needs. You might want to practice a bit at 25 yds from a rest position(prone,barracade,ect.)so that skill is ready should you ever need it.
     
  10. Shear_stress

    Shear_stress Member

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    Most of the people at my range shoot handguns from a bench. At the risk of seeming like a jerk, I find this weird. Once you're done sighting-in the pistol, bench shooting doesn't develop either competition or defense marksmanship. It's easy to line up sights and squeeze a trigger, but it's awfully hard to do so while trying to steady a multi-pound chunk of steel at arm's length.

    Shooting at 25 or 50 yards isn't required to be a good handgunner, but it will help a lot. From a defensive standpoint, training at distances exceeding those you would ever expect in a real "situation" makes you all the more prepared. Plus, isn't part of the fun of pistol shooting the challenge? Once the novelty of shooting a gun is diminished, it is practical to focus on shooting one accurately. I seek competence, not just confidence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2005
  11. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    I practice at distances roughly up to that range, using those police "picture" targets (man with a knife, man with a hostage, Osama, Saddam etc..) and at those ranges I am stoked if I can get all my shots onto target. Now, I can make a relativly tight group with my MkII, but with any of my other guns, Pie Plate accuracy is about the best that I can expect. Now, at 7 yards, my groups tighten up considerably. My theory is that trying to focus on hitting a target at 25 yards is hard enough work that at 7 yards, its just "easier". WIth my MkII, on my best day (I don't profess to be anything other than a average marksman with a pistol) I have shot ragged groups of under a 1/2 inch, with maybe one "flyer". With anything else, provided I take my time and don't rush it, I can shoot 2 inch groups all day at 7 yards, which for all intents and purposes, is enough to get the job done. Of course, those are my on my average/above average shooting days. I have had days that I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, and I had one day where I was hitting a plastic golf ball, with a S&W .357/4inch barrel, out to as far as I could see it. Which was a funny day because I was shooting with a guy that shoots IPSC matches and I told him that I was looking forward to getting some tips (which was true, I really was hoping to pick some things up), and that day I shot so well that I think the guy thought I was a little bit of a showoff!
     
  12. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Technique is everything. Some days I can't get 3" groups off the bench at 25 yards with 357's. I do better with a 41 magnum consistantly from the bench and off hand in single action mode. There is more to it than just lining up the sights and punching a hole in the bull's eye even from a rest.

    I get 2-3" groups with my 3" GP100 at 7-10 yards off hand in single action. No rear sight.

    For hunting revolvers, I pretty much insist that I get at least a 2" group at 25 yards and hit a 6" pie plate at 50 yards from a rest. Don't ask what I do at 100 yards... I'm still working on that. But, I like to know what I am capable of. Keep on shooting!
     
  13. fecmech

    fecmech Member

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    I shot PPC back in the 70's and at that time it was all revolvers, I never won anything to speak of. That said, from what I read on these boards some people don't challenge themselves enough with their practice and the idea of "good enough" is the standard. At any of the larger PPC matches that I attended to be anywhere near the top you needed all shots in the "X" ring(B-27 target) for 7 and 15yds and the 25 yd portion had to be clean with as many X's as you could manage. That was all double action shooting including 6 rounds weak hand at 25 yds. 50 yds could be shot single or double action.
    If you want to see what a handgun can really do at long range go to a Metallic Silhouette match, targets set at 50,100 150 and 200 meters!
    When you see what can be done by good shooters with handguns you tend to raise the bar for yourself and that can be a good thing. Nick
     
  14. marshall3

    marshall3 Member

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    Target disappears behind front sight at 25 yards...

    I have tried shooting at 25 yards, and my 8 inch round target, printed on 8.5x11 paper, simply disappears behind the front sight. That being the case, marksmanship at 25 yards is a pretty tough row to hoe. If you can do it, more power to you. But I bet 99 out of a 100 shooters will barely hit the paper (which is what I did). :rolleyes:
     
  15. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    marshall3,

    That's why bullseye shooters use a 6 O'Clock hold. That puts the bullseye above the sight instead of behind it.

    It is definitely humanly possible to shoot groups that are less than 2" at 25 yards without using a rest. But it's not easy...
     
  16. isp2605

    isp2605 Member

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    " have tried shooting at 25 yards, and my 8 inch round target, printed on 8.5x11 paper, simply disappears behind the front sight."

    Use a 6 o'clock hold. A bit of training from an old bullseye shooter will improve your scores.
    Od Fluff and fecmech are exactly right (again). Years ago to get in the money you had to have everything inside the 10 ring and you better have a bunch of Xs. You drop a round in the 9 ring and might as well call it a day a lot of times. I shot bullseye matches with guys who could easily put them all in the black all day long at 50 meters. That's 1 hand, unsupported. It take discipline, years of practice, and a whole lot of rds down range. Pro-basketball players don't make the NBA a month after they bought their first basketball. Pro-baseball players don't hit home runs if they've only played T-ball. Shooting is the same way, altho too many think just because they buy a gun, run maybe a couple of hundred rds down range with no coaching, that suddenly they're top rank shooters. Ain't gonna happen. No more than the pro-basketball or pro-baseball. It takes good coaching, a lifetime of dedicated practice, and shoot, shoot, shoot. Even then, just like the pro players, not everyone will be able to accomplish it. Some can, some can't, but definitely not everyone can.
    When I was shooting comp in the military one of the fun games at some matches was shooting clay pidgeons at 50 meters with M-9s. The M-9s had to be unaltered, rack weapons. Each person had 5 mounted on cardboard and the first to clean their 5 was the winner. Fun time.

    Oops, looks like John types faster than I do. 6 oclock hold.
     
  17. Majic

    Majic Member

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    You won't do it just trying once in a while. You also won't do it shooting several different guns while trying. You definately won't do it using various ammo. You must put in practice. Dedicated practice and lots of it. In time you will see your groups shrink. I think it's a shame so many shooters think you should only shoot at spitting distance.
     
  18. Rockstar

    Rockstar member

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    I'd quickly find shooting @ 7 yds. to be so boring that I'd probably give up shooting, if that's all I could do. Maybe I misread one of the posts that referred to a Glock as a DA revolver? :D It's not a revolver, and it's not DA.

    Per JohnK, if you're covering the target @ 25 yds., then you need to work on your concept of sight picture. I shoot out to 100 yds. just about every trip to the range with my hanguns; hit relatively small targets at that range; don't cover the target, regardless of its size, with my front sight.
     
  19. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    In the back yard I shoot from a few yards to 50 yards.
    At about 35 yards and beyond I usually sit with my feet on something and the gun resting on my knees but sometimes I'll shoot offhand out to 50 yards with pretty good results.
    But with 67 year old eyes and sometimes coffee shaking hands I wouldn't put money on shooting groups anymore on any given day. :D

    But I still have some good days.

    50 yards standing, 2 hands with a Polish P64. Suprisingly accurate little gun.
    Target is the TX 15 yard CHL qualification target.
    [​IMG]

    Rapid rire with a Crimson Trace laser. Laser are bad once you get the hang of them. 8x11 inch target
    [​IMG]

    Standing 2 hands. Kimber Tactical Ultra (3 inch). I hate it when I throw the last round away. :D 8x11 inch target.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I see lots of people shooting that way at my local outdoor ranges. I have no idea what they're practicing for—unless more rest shooting.

    When all goes well, I can hold a 3.5-inch group for 30 rounds at 25 meters in bullseye shooting. When all doesn't go well, it tends to be closer to a five-inch group.
     
  21. LHB1

    LHB1 Member

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    As an old (in more ways than one) Bullseye competition shooter, I'm used to shooting pistols offhand (no rest) at 25 and 50 yds. Due to accumulating years I now shoot with two hands instead of one and compete only against myself, always trying to better my last/best score. Shooting at distances less than 25 yds is too easy and encourages bad habits in grip, sighting, and trigger control. Stretch yourself; learn the fundamentals and try to fire EVERY shot perfectly. Accuracy first, then speed. As someone once said, you can't miss fast enough to get the job done. Go to a BE match and see what REALLY good pistol shooters can do at 25 and 50 yds! As posted above, the best BE shooters will keep most of their shots in the 3" ten ring at both distances. YMMV

    Good shooting and be safe.
    LB

    ps: I can't high jump 5 feet, much less 7 feet but that doesn't mean that nobody else can.
     
  22. isp2605

    isp2605 Member

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    M2 wrote "But with 67 year old eyes and sometimes coffee shaking hands I wouldn't put money on shooting groups anymore on any given day."

    I still shoot as good as I ever did. However, it's these inferior guns that are being made these days. Poor quality control. Doesn't matter who makes them but they all seem to be leaving the factories with sights that are fuzzy and not as dark as they use to be. They're probably just trying to save money or something by using inferior sights.
     
  23. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    Oh, I don't know Wolf. If your really and truly trying to figure out where a gun is shooting in order to adjust sights or something, I can see the benefit of doing so. Also, I watched a guy out on the Pawnee shoot his Casull from a rest because he was going hog hunting, and intended to take his shot from a stand, which of course means that it would be a rested shot. I am not old enough by several decades to have really read anything that Elmer Keith wrote, but its my understanding that he worked up loads off the bench, due in large part to the higher potential for accurate shooting. For kicks I have shot a couple of pistols off a bench, and once in awhile I will stretch out over my pickup hood (making damn sure I am not gonna plunk rounds into or through it) to take really long shots or to shoot my dads scoped MkII, but its really not my cup of tea to shoot off the bench.
     
  24. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    Another good thing to do, if you can, is to put targets out at different ranges and different angles and elevations. I sometimes shoot in an old quarry where this is do able.

    Choose an order that you will shoot them in ahead of time and then fire away.

    Use deliberate speed, shoot as fast as you can hit the targets. This will keep it interresting and teach you to acquire targets faster.

    Now, you guys talking about 25 and 50 yards from a bench. A friend has a Ruger .41 magnum that we shoot at the 100 yard rifle range, from a bench. We keep most of the shots in the black and a surprising number in the 9 or better. I hope he wills it to me if he dies first.

    One thing, when firing a high powered handgun, in this case the .41 magnum, form a bench. Don't let your little finger curl under the grip. It hurts like the devil.

    DM
     
  25. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    As far as losing the target at 25 yards is concerned, you should not even be looking at the target. Your focus should be on the front sight.

    Concentrate on that front sight--it should be clear, sharp and in focus. Let your eyes naturally center that front sight.

    Now comes the important part--squeezing your trigger in such a way that the sight picture and alignment is not disturbed.

    Apply even pressure, straight to the rear with the center of the pad of your trigger finger. Increase that pressure steadily until the hammer falls. Be sure to keep a "neutral trigger"--no pressure to either side, just straight to the rear.

    Concentrate on keeping this constant through your shooting.

    A couple more tips for accurate handgun shooting:

    1. Don't keep the gun up there all day! If you do not release the shot within 5 seconds, relax, put the gun down and think about it.

    2. A loose grip never helps. Squeeze those grips until the sap flows out. If you do not see the imprint of the grips in your hand when you put the gun down, grip it harder.

    3. Don't expect a silk purse from a sow's ear. A gun in poor repair or poor fit will not shoot accurately.

    4. Likewise, if your gun is good, and your technique is right, how bout that ammo? It took me a year of handloading to find a load my .44 liked--but when I found it, it became capable of putting 5 .44 caliber LSWC into less than an inch at 25 yards.

    Of course, YMMV. Good luck and good shooting!

    Yours,

    Powderman

    (one of those horrible anal retentive Bullseye shooters)
     
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