25 Yard Accuracy
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Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Powderman -- Good post.
isp2605 --
Shooting off rests ... I can appreciate the fact that you need to see what the pistol or revolver can do, but after that I believe your should shoot out of a Weaver (or Isoceles or whatever that other stance is called). Also train with strong hand and weak hand only. Also point shoot only.
Would the "bullseye" shooters comment on the "6 o'clock hold"? Wazzup with that?
It seems I cover the target completely with my sight picture on all my guns, and hit the ten ring (okay... most of the time at 7 yrds).
isp2605 --
Yep, got a Kimber a while back with the std black novaks... had to put white paint dots on the front and the rear to see it. That darn black was faulty. Not dark, disappeared.
Shooting off rests ... I can appreciate the fact that you need to see what the pistol or revolver can do, but after that I believe your should shoot out of a Weaver (or Isoceles or whatever that other stance is called). Also train with strong hand and weak hand only. Also point shoot only.
Would the "bullseye" shooters comment on the "6 o'clock hold"? Wazzup with that?
It seems I cover the target completely with my sight picture on all my guns, and hit the ten ring (okay... most of the time at 7 yrds).
fecmech
Member
The "6 O clock" hold gives you better sight definition than center hold does imo. The bullseye is set on top of the front sight which gives the shooter the ability to better see see the sights with the white target background. Using a "center hold" the black background of the bullseye makes the black sights harder to see and sight alignment is critical. IIRC .010" sight misalaignment will result in moving the bullet strike 2"@ 50yds. A 50 ft slowfire 10 ring is approx 7/8" in dia. and at 50 yds it's 3.313" dia. so everything must be perfect to hit that 10 ring! The rear sight is adjusted so that the bullet is striking the target above the front sight and in the 10 ring. Nick
Fecmech explained it pretty well. If you hold the front sight “into the black” and both the front sight and target are black, or at least dark, you don’t have a frame of reference for elevation, and a group may be strung out vertically. When you hold just under the black bullseye with a slight line of white between the top of the front sight and bottom of the bullseye you are more likely to get a more rounded group.
However, at 7 yards this may not matter much. It does though when you shoot at longer ranges such as 25 and 50 yards – or further.
At 7 yards a trained bullseye target shooter will put all of his/her shots into one ragged hole, not just the 10-ring. At 25 yards they will not only stay in the 10-ring, but also put many if not most of their shots into or touching the much smaller “X” ring.
However, at 7 yards this may not matter much. It does though when you shoot at longer ranges such as 25 and 50 yards – or further.
At 7 yards a trained bullseye target shooter will put all of his/her shots into one ragged hole, not just the 10-ring. At 25 yards they will not only stay in the 10-ring, but also put many if not most of their shots into or touching the much smaller “X” ring.
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Thank you both.. I'll try it next time at the range.
Powderman
Member
For practical pistol use, (defensive/duty/competition other than Bullseye shooting), a visible sight aid (dots, dot-bar-dot or otherwise, straight eights, triangle reference [love the combat sights on the Steyr pistols!]) is invaluable.
Some Bullseye shooters (the majority, I believe) use the 6'oclock hold. It is very true that the white visible around the front sight aids in holding the sight picture.
However, I use the center hold--I bisect the exact point where I want the bullet to hit.
With an electronic sight (I use an Ultra Dot for my wad gun) that's not a problem.
However, for EIC/hardball matches, this could present difficulty since iron sights must be used. So, how do we get around it?
The solution is to smoke the front sight. Use something that produces a good sooty smoke. Kitchen matches will do; there are also carbide lamps for sale for this express purpose. It will make the front sight stand out in sharp relief, even against a black background. Rifle competitors have been doing this for ages.
Some Bullseye shooters (the majority, I believe) use the 6'oclock hold. It is very true that the white visible around the front sight aids in holding the sight picture.
However, I use the center hold--I bisect the exact point where I want the bullet to hit.
With an electronic sight (I use an Ultra Dot for my wad gun) that's not a problem.
However, for EIC/hardball matches, this could present difficulty since iron sights must be used. So, how do we get around it?
The solution is to smoke the front sight. Use something that produces a good sooty smoke. Kitchen matches will do; there are also carbide lamps for sale for this express purpose. It will make the front sight stand out in sharp relief, even against a black background. Rifle competitors have been doing this for ages.
There is no reason for the average shooter not to be able to hit group 4 inches at 25 yards with a capable pistol. Its good to practice at a lot of different ranges. Most gun fights happen up close but some don't. I shoot out to 50 yards with my pistols and sometimes 100. At 50 yards the average person should be able to hit a man in the chest consistenly from an off hand position. At 100 yards its more difficult. There have been some long range pistol shots in actual gun fights. One case I know about involved an Military Police officer who shot an AK armed mental subject at 80 yards and hit him with his first and last shot killing him. I know of an FBI agent who was fired upon at 75 yards. He dropped to prone and fired 8 rounds 4 hit their mark and ended the fight. The closer you are to your threat the most speed matters but the further away the more accuracy matters. At 7 yards you should be able to eat one hole out of the paper with 5 shots. Thats is the furthest range we have head shots in our qualifications.
Pat
Pat
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Pat -- great post, thanks. Several questions, however.
Here is my situation. I use a G19 for both target and point shooting, and I like to cook off a lot of ammo at a session. (it's cheap and I like to shoot). At least 150 rounds, sometimes 250.
If I am at an indoor range I will use a FBI smurf (the blue one) target, and place 3" exploding target circles on it. At 7 yds firing from a weaver full extension, standing I typically (with no coffee shakes) can have the holes touching, and all in or touching target (10 to 15 rd mags per target). At 15 yrds I want to place all the hits on the circles, and do for the most part.
I have been training with a government 1911 for the last four months, and I am looking for more accuracy.
First, how much time do you recommend between shots for target (not tactical) training?
Second, once I acquire the target I immediately squeeze, should I hesitate, then squeeze? What do you recommend?
Third, I find most of the shots I take are not off support. Should I "mix" it up. I practice with both hands, and will shoot about one mag with each hand, unsupported?
Thanks for your help,
Mongo
Here is my situation. I use a G19 for both target and point shooting, and I like to cook off a lot of ammo at a session. (it's cheap and I like to shoot). At least 150 rounds, sometimes 250.
If I am at an indoor range I will use a FBI smurf (the blue one) target, and place 3" exploding target circles on it. At 7 yds firing from a weaver full extension, standing I typically (with no coffee shakes) can have the holes touching, and all in or touching target (10 to 15 rd mags per target). At 15 yrds I want to place all the hits on the circles, and do for the most part.
I have been training with a government 1911 for the last four months, and I am looking for more accuracy.
First, how much time do you recommend between shots for target (not tactical) training?
Second, once I acquire the target I immediately squeeze, should I hesitate, then squeeze? What do you recommend?
Third, I find most of the shots I take are not off support. Should I "mix" it up. I practice with both hands, and will shoot about one mag with each hand, unsupported?
Thanks for your help,
Mongo
First, how much time do you recommend between shots for target (not tactical) training?
Second, once I acquire the target I immediately squeeze, should I hesitate, then squeeze? What do you recommend?
Third, I find most of the shots I take are not off support. Should I "mix" it up. I practice with both hands, and will shoot about one mag with each hand, unsupported?
END QUOTE
Well for your first question the time depends on your ability. One saying they drilled into me was shoot as fast as you can as slow as you have too. The same thing applies to accuracy shooting (groups) Don't shoot faster than you can place your shots where you want them. Thats pretty slow when your shooting groups. But also don't take some much time your arms and body fatigue. Sorry if thats a wish washy answer.
Second question
Once your aquire the target slowly squeeze the trigger until the shot breaks. 90% of shooting is trigger control. If you have good trigger control you can get away with a poor stance, marginal sight alignment and a lot of other issues and still hit the target. Once the shot breaks make sure you stay on target don't look over the gun to see where the bullet went. Follow through is also important. Also depending on your gun only release the trigger far enough forward to reset it. Don't let your finger leave the trigger between shots as this can induce slapping of the trigger.
Third question its important to practice with both hands in a variety of postions. Practice your weakest areas the most until they are not longer weak. I should clarify don't shoot all day with two hands in a weaver stance if your really weak in your one handed shooting. Take some time and develop that skill. But make it fun. I plink at cans and other targets with my weakhand to develop my skills with it. I don't belive much in point shooting. I do respect index shooting in which you use the gun as a sight in a sence. But I don't believe in unaimed fire or hip shooting.
Pat
Second, once I acquire the target I immediately squeeze, should I hesitate, then squeeze? What do you recommend?
Third, I find most of the shots I take are not off support. Should I "mix" it up. I practice with both hands, and will shoot about one mag with each hand, unsupported?
END QUOTE
Well for your first question the time depends on your ability. One saying they drilled into me was shoot as fast as you can as slow as you have too. The same thing applies to accuracy shooting (groups) Don't shoot faster than you can place your shots where you want them. Thats pretty slow when your shooting groups. But also don't take some much time your arms and body fatigue. Sorry if thats a wish washy answer.
Second question
Once your aquire the target slowly squeeze the trigger until the shot breaks. 90% of shooting is trigger control. If you have good trigger control you can get away with a poor stance, marginal sight alignment and a lot of other issues and still hit the target. Once the shot breaks make sure you stay on target don't look over the gun to see where the bullet went. Follow through is also important. Also depending on your gun only release the trigger far enough forward to reset it. Don't let your finger leave the trigger between shots as this can induce slapping of the trigger.
Third question its important to practice with both hands in a variety of postions. Practice your weakest areas the most until they are not longer weak. I should clarify don't shoot all day with two hands in a weaver stance if your really weak in your one handed shooting. Take some time and develop that skill. But make it fun. I plink at cans and other targets with my weakhand to develop my skills with it. I don't belive much in point shooting. I do respect index shooting in which you use the gun as a sight in a sence. But I don't believe in unaimed fire or hip shooting.
Pat
Mongo the Mutterer
Member
Thanks Pat,
One more, and I'll stop bugging you...
I shoot a pistol "like a rifle" according to one of my instructors. Close the left eye (I'm right handed and right eyed), and I cock my head to the right.
I've been told to use both eyes, and I have tried it, but have a hard time aligning the front sight, or even focusing on the front sight. Problem or no?
I might be able to better master the 6:00 position using two eyes?
Thanks
One more, and I'll stop bugging you...
I shoot a pistol "like a rifle" according to one of my instructors. Close the left eye (I'm right handed and right eyed), and I cock my head to the right.
I've been told to use both eyes, and I have tried it, but have a hard time aligning the front sight, or even focusing on the front sight. Problem or no?
I might be able to better master the 6:00 position using two eyes?
Thanks
Powderman
Member
Mongo, if I may chime in again:
This might be a problem.
I believe in your earlier post that you mentioned using a Weaver stance. Try the modified Weaver (Chapman) approach--the firing hand/arm is fully extended. You might also try an Isoceles stance. The aim here is to keep your head as upright as possible.
Also, be aware that the 6 o'clock hold works well with handguns with adjustable sights. Fixed sights are regulated (hopefully) to shoot to point of impact with a center hold.
Try focusing fully on the front sight. Practice presentations (first from the low ready, then from the draw--with an unloaded handgun, of course!) where your sole objective is to find that front sight and to focus on it.
If, like a lot of shooters, you are used to focusing on the target, you will find it somewhat difficult at first. Don't worry, it will happen--just give it time.
As for trigger control, the key is to exert steady continuous pressure directly to the rear. You should do this with an aim toward a steady, smooth pull straight to the rear.
Dry firing is essential--this will help you to watch that front sight as you pull the trigger. If you are pulling to either side, watching that front sight will tell you in a hurry, because you will see it move with the trigger pull. I recommend practicing at the range on a target that's pasted up.
Once you are satisfied that you are pulling that trigger straight to the rear, invest in some dummy rounds--at least one magazine full, or ten rounds, whichever is less. Take a friend to the range, and have them load a magazine with one or two dummy rounds and the rest with dummies.
Take each shot as if the pistol was going to go off. Squeeze the trigger and keep your eyes on the front sight. If there is a dummy under the firing pin, cycle the slide and try again.
Also, learn how to follow through with the shot--after the shot breaks, reacquire your sight picture and alignment, and hold that sight picture for a second or so.
Finally, remember and ALWAYS practice those four safety rules:
All guns are ALWAYS loaded.
Finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
NEVER point the weapon at anything you are not willing to kill.
Be sure of your backstop and what is beyond it.
(This is why I recommended practice at the range.
)
Good luck--and favor the X!
This might be a problem.
I believe in your earlier post that you mentioned using a Weaver stance. Try the modified Weaver (Chapman) approach--the firing hand/arm is fully extended. You might also try an Isoceles stance. The aim here is to keep your head as upright as possible.
Also, be aware that the 6 o'clock hold works well with handguns with adjustable sights. Fixed sights are regulated (hopefully) to shoot to point of impact with a center hold.
Try focusing fully on the front sight. Practice presentations (first from the low ready, then from the draw--with an unloaded handgun, of course!) where your sole objective is to find that front sight and to focus on it.
If, like a lot of shooters, you are used to focusing on the target, you will find it somewhat difficult at first. Don't worry, it will happen--just give it time.
As for trigger control, the key is to exert steady continuous pressure directly to the rear. You should do this with an aim toward a steady, smooth pull straight to the rear.
Dry firing is essential--this will help you to watch that front sight as you pull the trigger. If you are pulling to either side, watching that front sight will tell you in a hurry, because you will see it move with the trigger pull. I recommend practicing at the range on a target that's pasted up.
Once you are satisfied that you are pulling that trigger straight to the rear, invest in some dummy rounds--at least one magazine full, or ten rounds, whichever is less. Take a friend to the range, and have them load a magazine with one or two dummy rounds and the rest with dummies.
Take each shot as if the pistol was going to go off. Squeeze the trigger and keep your eyes on the front sight. If there is a dummy under the firing pin, cycle the slide and try again.
Also, learn how to follow through with the shot--after the shot breaks, reacquire your sight picture and alignment, and hold that sight picture for a second or so.
Finally, remember and ALWAYS practice those four safety rules:
All guns are ALWAYS loaded.
Finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
NEVER point the weapon at anything you are not willing to kill.
Be sure of your backstop and what is beyond it.
(This is why I recommended practice at the range.
)Good luck--and favor the X!
Thanks Pat,
One more, and I'll stop bugging you...
I shoot a pistol "like a rifle" according to one of my instructors. Close the left eye (I'm right handed and right eyed), and I cock my head to the right.
I've been told to use both eyes, and I have tried it, but have a hard time aligning the front sight, or even focusing on the front sight. Problem or no?
I might be able to better master the 6:00 position using two eyes?
Thanks
END QUOTE
Try to keep both eyes open but as distance increases most people tend to squint or even close the non dominate eye. I have gotten to where I shoot two eyes open but it took a bit to get used to it at first. Just practice a lot during dry fire to get used to it.
Pat
One more, and I'll stop bugging you...
I shoot a pistol "like a rifle" according to one of my instructors. Close the left eye (I'm right handed and right eyed), and I cock my head to the right.
I've been told to use both eyes, and I have tried it, but have a hard time aligning the front sight, or even focusing on the front sight. Problem or no?
I might be able to better master the 6:00 position using two eyes?
Thanks
END QUOTE
Try to keep both eyes open but as distance increases most people tend to squint or even close the non dominate eye. I have gotten to where I shoot two eyes open but it took a bit to get used to it at first. Just practice a lot during dry fire to get used to it.
Pat
AStone
Member
Shooting with both eyes open: technique?
Howdy all,
First, thanks for a great, informative thread. Some excellent questions & suggestions. I've read it twice front to back.
I have a question to add to the mix, but a bit of background first.
I just traded in a SW3914, which was my second HG after a Taurus .38 revolver, for a Kahr K9. Still haven't shot the K9, but hoping to go to the range on Tuesday.
I'll confess that even though I owned the SW for almost 8 years, i rarely shot it. It lived on the bedside table at night, but I was so busy with work during that time that I rarely got time to shoot for practice. Yes, I know that makes me worse than a novice, but I've learned and am now trying to mend my evil ways. Still, since I didn't shoot the SW very much (or the Taurus for that matter), and when I did shoot I realize (after studying this forum for a few weeks) that much of what I was doing was poor technique (even if safe), I am now considering myself as a novice and starting fresh. (We'll see about that old dog, new tricks thing.)
I've also realized why I didn't like shooting the SW: the 'trigger reach" was too long for me. Not by much, but just enough to make shooting unwieldly. (It was an older 3914; from Internet images, it looks like they shortened the newer 3913's to closer the size of a Kahr K9, but that's a moot point for me now.)
Reading something that Powderman wrote earlier in this thread helped me understand one reason that the SW wasn't right for me:
OK, being a good novice, I've been reading volumes & volumes on this forum & elsewhere about this gun, ammo choices, holsters & of course most importantly, training with it.
For example, I found this excellent essay today: "How to shoot a handgun accurately " by Massad Ayoob . Very well written, clear, concise. It must be a classic.
After reading it and this thread and a couple of other threads, I basically have but one burning question. Mind you, I fully acknowledge that I may be treading into the territory known as the zen of shooting that can't really be adequately explained in langauge, but here goes.
I hear the importance of focusing on front site (after target acquisition). Check.
I hear what several writers have asserted about sighting with both eyes as opposed to closing one. Check. I'm going to work on that.
But here is my question that I'm spitting into two, even though they're related:
OK, I've reread that a few times, and I think I explained the questions in a way that can be understood (even if far from eloquent or perfect). If not, I'll try to do a better job asking.
Thanks for any suggestions.
NemA~
Howdy all,
First, thanks for a great, informative thread. Some excellent questions & suggestions. I've read it twice front to back.
I have a question to add to the mix, but a bit of background first.
I just traded in a SW3914, which was my second HG after a Taurus .38 revolver, for a Kahr K9. Still haven't shot the K9, but hoping to go to the range on Tuesday.
I'll confess that even though I owned the SW for almost 8 years, i rarely shot it. It lived on the bedside table at night, but I was so busy with work during that time that I rarely got time to shoot for practice. Yes, I know that makes me worse than a novice, but I've learned and am now trying to mend my evil ways. Still, since I didn't shoot the SW very much (or the Taurus for that matter), and when I did shoot I realize (after studying this forum for a few weeks) that much of what I was doing was poor technique (even if safe), I am now considering myself as a novice and starting fresh. (We'll see about that old dog, new tricks thing.)
I've also realized why I didn't like shooting the SW: the 'trigger reach" was too long for me. Not by much, but just enough to make shooting unwieldly. (It was an older 3914; from Internet images, it looks like they shortened the newer 3913's to closer the size of a Kahr K9, but that's a moot point for me now.)
Reading something that Powderman wrote earlier in this thread helped me understand one reason that the SW wasn't right for me:
Because the SW was too long for me, my trigger pull was never straight back, but from the side. That didn't feel right, and of course my groupings sucked.
OK, being a good novice, I've been reading volumes & volumes on this forum & elsewhere about this gun, ammo choices, holsters & of course most importantly, training with it.
For example, I found this excellent essay today: "How to shoot a handgun accurately " by Massad Ayoob . Very well written, clear, concise. It must be a classic.
After reading it and this thread and a couple of other threads, I basically have but one burning question. Mind you, I fully acknowledge that I may be treading into the territory known as the zen of shooting that can't really be adequately explained in langauge, but here goes.
I hear the importance of focusing on front site (after target acquisition). Check.
I hear what several writers have asserted about sighting with both eyes as opposed to closing one. Check. I'm going to work on that.
But here is my question that I'm spitting into two, even though they're related:
- When focusing on the front sight, what's happening with rear site in your visual field? I find it easy to focus on the front site with both eyes open. No problem. The image from both eyes converge when I focus on the sight, so I only see one. But then, I see more than one rear sight, and sometimes more than one target. As a result, it's a bit hard to know what the reality is, so to speak.
- I'm right handed, but with a little experimentation, it seems that - at least when sighting with both eyes open, my left eye is dominant. That is, after sighting, if I close my right eye, the front site is still correctly alligned with the target (and usually the rear site). But after sighting with both eyes open, if I close my LEFT eye, then it seems that I'd miss the target by a mile. Does that seem correct for a right hander?
OK, I've reread that a few times, and I think I explained the questions in a way that can be understood (even if far from eloquent or perfect). If not, I'll try to do a better job asking.
Thanks for any suggestions.
NemA~
Last edited:
Powderman
Member
Well, I'll try to help.
1. What happens to the rear sight? It gets fuzzy.
That sounds like an oversimplification, but it is the exact truth. Your sight picture should look like this: Front sight razor-sharp, and in focus; target and rear sight, somewhat fuzzy.
So how do you shoot accurately? It's human nature, you see.
Your brain conditions you to center everything. If you see a circle, you will naturally look at the exact center.
Thus, your brain will center that front sight. It will also center the sight blade in the rear sight notch.
Now, the only challenge is to keep that sight picture undisturbed when pulling the trigger.
2. It sounds like you might be cross-eye dominant. This makes it even more important to focus BOTH eyes on the front sight. Give it a shot--concentrate on the front sight HARD. Bring that blade into sharp focus and hold it there through the shot.
1. What happens to the rear sight? It gets fuzzy.
That sounds like an oversimplification, but it is the exact truth. Your sight picture should look like this: Front sight razor-sharp, and in focus; target and rear sight, somewhat fuzzy.
So how do you shoot accurately? It's human nature, you see.
Your brain conditions you to center everything. If you see a circle, you will naturally look at the exact center.
Thus, your brain will center that front sight. It will also center the sight blade in the rear sight notch.
Now, the only challenge is to keep that sight picture undisturbed when pulling the trigger.
2. It sounds like you might be cross-eye dominant. This makes it even more important to focus BOTH eyes on the front sight. Give it a shot--concentrate on the front sight HARD. Bring that blade into sharp focus and hold it there through the shot.
AStone
Member
i'm starting to get this
will practice more.
thanks.
NemA~
Powderman, thanks. I'm starting to understand this. Working extra hard to focus every ounce, every dram, every joule of energy on the front sight, I'm starting to understand how to make the rear sight fuzzy, yet keep the front sight glued to the target.powderman said:
will practice more.
thanks.
NemA~
Ok I tried it last time trip to the range. I just used my normal shooting stance and sighting. I was shooting my CZ 75 in .40. 5 out of 10 were in the 6" circle, the other 5 were off to the left. So there is no doubt I could hit a man size target at that distance, as long as it was standing still and not shooting back.
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