Using Lee Jurras is I'm not altogether the right person to justify the existence and use of hollowpoint ammunition:
As for Lee Jurras on self-defense, his acutal opinion might surprise you: It's a bit of a long read, but Lee Jurras is a great writer:
"Since I've got your ear, I do have a question for you.
In another forum, these guys like their loads to go about 14" in gelatin(talking about 45 acp) and stop, expanded.
Now, according to JRH, and myself;-), I would much rather have a heavier projectile, like a 230 grain hollow point,
GD, at 1100 fps(My minimum for self-defense, or, I even like the old Detonics 200 grain flying ashtray at 1200 fps, but, I've heard the new 200 grain bullets aren't as well designed as the 230's, or for that matter, the 185's). My theory is I want that bullet to expand, and continue on it's way, not slowing at all, or very little, through the entire target, for maximum wounding effect. I believe that a high velocity, expanding bullet, that penetrates
it's entire target, maintaining more speed, transfers more kenetic energy to the target, with more surface area due to the heavier, larger, bullet, and the maintained velocity.
This same theory has been best observed using the 458 win magnum on large cats, like lions. The Africa guys swear that the 500 grain bullets, soft points, at lower velocity then the 400-450 grain bullets, at higher velocity, just hit the animal harder, despite being under fackler's mysto 2100 fps(also the target velocity for the old Nitro Express rounds, maybe those old brits
aren't so dumb, afterall). Even though the 400 grain bullets can be put out at 2400 fps, they just don't have the same visible affect that the 500 grain bullets do on lion.
Since I feel almost ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man-size targets(vs. my 375 H&H with 270 grain soft points at 2800 fps;-) I think a large, fast moving, expanding bullet is superior to the lighter, slower bullets, that open up, and stop at 14 inches in gelatin. Your thoughts?
P
"P, you keep their heads down with the 45 ACP, and I'll sneak around and hit them with a REAL gun(45 Colt/Linebaugh)"
P, you got my ear, but I'm not sure I can answer in a brief e-mail...here goes... Remeber, these are my HO based on experience, as I am still working on my Doctorate in Ballistics Engineering...If fact having trouble finding a school that offers it. To my knowledge the U. of Berlin was the last..Think they closed the doors in '45....Oh well, I think todays serious junior Ballistics engineer should Major in Chem Eng,with a dual major in Mechanical, and a minor in Wound Ballistics from one of the Major Un's after he got his MD...There are some sharp dudes out there with some great specialists...But I think you have to compile a Blue Ribbon committe to get all the answers. Kinda reminds me years ago we bought a lot of brass from Federal Ctg. If we had a problem with incoming QC, I'd have to go to the factory, and could not talk to an individual...The Pres, would call a meeting and each dept head would be present. As I would ask a question, he would refer to each dept head for the answer....Maybe something as simple as case hardness gradient...Personally I thought it was BS... But you have to remember each of these guys was a specialist in his field.. Combined, they couldn't pull the trigger and hit a target, but combined they could make a product that you could hit the target with....A reporter once asked Werner Von Braun what it was like in layman language to land a man on the moon? he replied after a moments thought...." riding a merry-go-round, shooting a BB gun and hitting a BumbleBee @ a 100 yds"...see how many people NASA has ....Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to put myself in class with these guys, just explainning what happens when guys think one bullet, one load, one caliber should do it all under all circumstances... Well hell I've rattled on here and haven't even started to answer your question....digest this and I'll get back this evening and try to answer your original question...Have to get some work done right now....ATB Lee
P & S; you guys are making my head swim also...Yes I can relate story after story of failures and successes with both high velocity and heavy slow moving bullets..As I mentioned in previous posts; " its a never ending debate , that has no real endind 'cause both have there place....On my first trip to Africa I took a 458 Browning and a SuperBlackHawk 44 Mag. 20 Rds of 500gr. SP and 20 rds of 500 Solids plus 100 rds of 180 gr. JSP for the 44 Mag... When my Pro Hunter saw the 500gr, Soft Points for the 458 he said, "what are you going to do with those", told him I thought probably Lion...He said, "you been reading too much Jack O'Conner"...then he said what are you going to do if a Cape Buff charges without notice of we come up on an Elephant? He said "we only use solids ", solids will kill a Lion OK, but you don't want to get caught with SP's in the magazine when you need solids...Think about it....Well I said I'll trade you these 20 SP's for 20 Solids, he said NO we'll sell you 20 solids, take the SP's home and shoot them at Deer or something....The Point being that your favorite manstopping load might not cut the mustard if it has to go thru a car door, glass, brush or some body armor. I've seen guys load their revolvers with three different loads so as to be prepared for all circumstances, and they actually believed that these events should follow in a orchestrated manner????The 14" of geletin is fine for lab analylsis and a theoretical situation, someone has to explain to the widow why that theory didn't hold water after the fact: now maybe thats a little rash, but it has happened...You say you feel ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man sized targets"...I SAY if the caliber starts with a 4, and weighs at least 250 grs, moving at least 950 fps. IT WILL be consistent if properly placed...Thats the big secret. I also believe if it starts with a 3 and weighs 110 grs, traveling at least 1350 fps, it can be a consistent stopper also....provided its properly placed...Now before I hear the onslaught of disbelief....remember the little tail about the solids and the SP's I mentioned....Use the right equipment...Guys usually know the general senario they will be facing...The NYC detective 's will probably differ from The Montana Hiway Patrolman, just as the guy going after Grizz with his favorite 44 or 45, or 475 and 500 will differ from the Eastern Whitetail hunter...Now this might not answer all your questions P BUT...I don't believe there is a pat answer...I personally have tried to choose the equipment for the job...And or offered the Individaul a choice. I took my choice, design, and finished product at tested it in a good portion of the world under a variety of circumstances....My choice today for Grizz or Moose in Alaska, My 375 Howdah or my 475 Linebaugh...All lesser game my Ruger 44 Mag SuperBlackhawk.Jurras 180 gr. JSP.... Personal defense My 70 Series 1911.or 4" 25-5....All-around one gun...Probably 44 Superblackhawk....But who wants just one gun.....If I could only own one, I'd probably have to say my Linebaugh 475, could load in down for squirrel or up for bear....All around bullet design Keith style SWC....Hope I haven't confused the issue...For those of you that might mistake my trivia for just an old man...thats what worked and continues to work for me....Onward and upward...the Curmudgeon"
Lee matched his BULLET to his target. Situation requiring less penetration, he used the 180 grain soft point, or even HP's for varmits, going nearly 1900 fps. For bigger, more dangerous game, he would use silhouette 180 grain bullets, pretty much truncated cone bullet designs, that didn't expand, but, went to the same point of aim, and, thanks to velocity, penetrated very well.
Then, there is always the Desert Eagle and .50AE. (Fish is lucky he only had a 10mm).
