How many LE deaths due to FN FiveseveN?

[Destructo6]

I agree, why screw around with AK clones and AR's when you've got the money and connections to get the real deal?

Because they're cheaper. See, quite a few of these get smuggled south so that they can be carried north with drug mule trains for protection against rip-off teams. When the drugs get loaded into vehicles, the guns get stashed or buried and the mules head out to the highway for a free ride south. The guns are used for a single trip and are considered disposeable. Why, then, pay top dollar?

I've seen and handled some of these and they are, typically, junk. eg an SKS with Tapco folding stock, 30 rnd mag, bayonet removed, yet loaded with only 10rnds of mismatched ammo.

 

[csmkersh]

Destructo's only yards off the border in Nogales, AZ and I-19 gives them a straight shot North to Tucson and I-10 East and West.

Big Bend, TX gives mules access to East & West I-10, but not as good as Nogales, but we're seeing a different deal here. We're seeing rogue military units excourting mules and they are armed with full-auto weapons. Once the mules are across and moving, the Mexican Federales return to Mexico. We're also seeing full-auto in Nuevo Laredo, just across the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo.*


*Same river.
​

 

[rhubarb]

Looking at the FBI chart, I'd be inclined to call the 9mm an "Evil Cop Killer Bullet." There were more than twice as many LEOs killed by 9mm than the next closest caliber. Isn't 9mm a high velocity round that is falling out of favor in law enforcement 'cause it penetrates too much? Doesn't it go right through one cop and into another?

As for Mexican gangs buying them, why? They have ARs, AKs and HKs that they use to kill cops. Work just fine without going through additional background checks or anything to get a special gun or ammo.

 

[brighamr]

Here's Table 33 from the 2006 FBI report on officers killed. It lists by type firearm and caliber used to kill the officer.

According to this zero cops have been killed by a .50BMG in the last ten years. That's another specific gun the press blame for a lot of problems.

 

[Ctone03]

Lies

That story was pure bunk. The same two "reporters;" Ross and Esposito were behind it.

I have a post which covers it some, but scroll down to the updates at the bottom and click on the two links from Confederate Yankee for the real dirt.

Clicky - http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2008/04/super-guns.html

 

[Ctone03]

Retread article

I've been mocking this story for about four months now. It keeps showing up through different "news" sources here and there. The first time was Jerry Seper of the Washington Times talking about .38 caliber "super" pistols.

I sent ABC news an email this morning because they already had close to a hundred comments. No official word back from them yet.

 

[DougDubya]

Ctone03, I want one of those 38mm Super Garbage truck killers. Too bad they don't have any at Illinois gun shows (your blog is rising to the top of my favorites list).

 

[Ctone03]

Why, thank you!

And may I suggest, for a more modern firearm experience; one of these - http://fateoflegions.blogspot.com/2008/02/real-future-weapons.html

The civilian contractors who labor day and night for the government, of which I am one, have a great sense of humor! They must be gamers to come up with something like that.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

According to this zero cops have been killed by a .50BMG in the last ten years. That's another specific gun the press blame for a lot of problems.

You'll aslo note there are no 5.7 deaths... and most of the deaths from "assault rifle" ammunition came during the ban.

Surely there is something to be learned here..

 

[Zoogster]

One of the reports showing guns being smuggled from the US because of the freedoms or "gun show loopholes" in Arizona showcased RPGs and belt fed machineguns which were being legaly sold and readily available in gun shows with no questions asked in places like AZ. (according to them)

The press if full of crap quite often.

They see something that could be spun in a sensational way and run with it. Selling stories is a business. They only have to have a couple of well known facts to sound credible to an ignorant audience even with dozens of lies an inaccuracies making up most of the story.

The 5.7 round was developed specificly to defeat body armor out of the PS90.
That is the whole reason for development of PDW weapons, to have the recoil of a pistol, but with better penetration (and reduced wounding capability). Now they needed special rounds to still inflict damage.
However the smaller diameter the round, the less energy it needs for penetration. Pretty simple. The 5.7 is basicly a .22 at speed.
In fact the FN 5.7 has about the same energy as the .22 magnum which has existed for many years and is the same diameter.
The only difference is the special bullet construction of the non civilian FN 5.7 rounds.

So the FN 5.7 is about the same diameter at the same velocities as many .22 magnum rounds which have existed in the public since 1959.

The difference is the 5.7 is scarier and newer, invented for a more "evil" purpose, so it must be a more evil round no matter what type of bullet is fired from it. Even if it has virtualy the same performance as another caliber in use for many decades chambered in various pistols and rifles.

 

[Standing Wolf]

When you think of Mexico and anything that has to do with it, think, "failed state kept from collapsing by checks from illegal immigrants to the US and Pemex oil revenue". Suddenly, a lot of other things make sense.

You've hit the X ring, ArmedBear.

 

[jrfoxx]

"We need a lot more resources," said the ATF's Newell.

why exactly does this jerk want to use U.S. taxpayer money to deal with a gun problem in MEXICO? If the Mexican govt and the ATF want to deal with Mexico's gun issue, let MEXICO and MEXICAN citizens foot the bill. Mexico isnt exactly spending a penny to help keep illegals from there coming into the U.S. so why should U.S. tax money go to help Mexico's border problems? Not my problem, so dont use my money. End of story.

and as others have said, nearly every word, with the exception of "a, the, and, or" in that story is total, made up lies and horse hockey.

 

[44AMP]

Notice the numbers

536 US LEO killed in the last 10 years. According to that article, 2,000 Mexican LEOs killed in the last 15 months!

Also, look at that FBI table (thanks for the link!), and notice the single largest number of LEOs killed was with the 9mm. A few decades ago, it was the .38 Spl. NOT because they were/are the most popular calibers (although it does have some impact) but because they are the calibers carried by the police! For the past half century or so, the caliber and type of gun that has killed the most police officers is the one that they carry. It used to the the .38 Spl revolver, and currently appears to be the 9mm, with the .40 coming on strong. The sad fact remains that more officers are killed with their own gun than with any other single gun or caliber.

 

[Timthinker]

Concerning the 5.7mm round, I agree with Zoogster's observations. It has no mystical qualities about it. In fact, I would prefer a more popular round for both economical and practical reasons. No doubt, the Mexican Mafia also follows that line of reasoning.

The topic of LEOs being shot with their own firearm is a tragically interesting subject that I hope to see discussed here. That topic dovetails into the issue of effective unarmed fighting skills which is discussed at THR sometimes. Hopefully, someone will start a thread on this subject soon.


Timthinker

 

[DMF]

Always interesting to see people who are ignorant of the reaility spout off.

Some of you are talking about the "Mexican Mafia" and crime in Mexico, when the Mexican Mafia is a US gang. It started in the California prisons and has expanded to the streets, but it is NOT a major OC organization in Mexico itself. OC in Mexico that wants the guns, and has them smuggled from the US, is not some prison gang from the US, it's the drug cartels. Please spare me any backpedaling about using the term Mafia as a generic term for OC, you guys heard that name, and had no idea what it really was, but spouted off anyway on BS assumptions.

People are talking about US LE gun deaths, but the article was about Mexican LE gun deaths. The stats on US LE gun deaths are irrelevant to that article.

Also, where are people getting this nonsense that getting firearms in Mexico is easy? Guns get smuggled from the US to Mexico, NOT for use in muling drugs back into the US, but rather for use in the ongoing battles between the cartels, and between the cartels and Mexican LE and military. They aren't looking for cheap guns to give mules, they are looking for quality guns for their ongoing battles down there. It is very difficult to get those guns down there, and that is why they pay so much to get the guns smuggled from the US.

For those that don't think this is a US problem, and are whining about illegal aliens, you have blinders on. If the cartels become more powerful, and the Mexican government loses more control over the crime there, we will have more illegal immigrants coming across the border, and it won't be a guy looking to pick lettuce or do roofing, it will be criminals - hardened criminals who have lots of experience with violence. Trying to stem the flow of guns to Mexico, and stem the flow of drugs into the US is protecting the US interests.

No good would from ignoring a civil war between OC and the government in a country we share a border with.

 

[DBSweetwood]

Ladies and Gentlemen of THR, I am sending this letter to [email protected] the president of ABC news. I think you should all do simaler. Lets show these people that we won't put up with anymore of thier anti-rights bias. Thanks for your help, I took some of the info from you fine people, and just listned to Tom Gresham's gun talk from a couple of weeks ago where he had an employee of FNH-USA on and he specificlly talked about the shipping requirements of the SS190 ammo.


Dear Mr. Westin and ABC,

I am writing in regards to Brian Ross’ story “U.S. Guns Arming Mexican Drug Gangs; Second Amendment to Blame?”.

If Brian Ross is to continue reporting for ABC he needs to verify all his information and only report on the facts. This article was full of misleading information, and lies. It is not difficult to create a fair and balanced article, and would only take a little of Mr. Ross’ precious time to research the facts.

First, the photos that support his story are mostly of weapons that are very, very restricted for civilian purchase. These include: Short barreled rifles(NFA $200 tax, plus registration required for purchase and transfer), 40mm grenades(available only to military and police), armor piercing rounds(available only to military and police), M60 machine gun (NFA $200 tax, plus registration required for purchase and transfer, costs tens of thousands of dollars to buy). These are not weapons that are available at just any old gun store or gun show.

Second, the part about the Belgian-made pistol. He couldn’t even get the name of the pistol? It is the FN five-Seven. This does not fire a “high-power” rifle cartridge. It is a Personal Defense Weapon/Pistol cartridge. Ballistically, the 5.7 round is very similar to the .22 WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) round. This means it is about as powerful as a bullet that is rarely used on anything bigger than squirrels. And once again, the ammo that is available for civilians is not capable of penetrating armor. All he would have to do is make a phone call to FNH-USA or go to their web page at http://www.fnhusa.com/mil/products/firearms/ammo.asp and click on the SS190 round which can defeat soft body armor, but its sale is restricted to law enforcement and military. And a phone call to the company would reveal the very strict measures they take when selling and shipping this ammo. Also calling it a “cop killer” is very unprofessional, and I believe that FNH-USA should file a defamation or liable suit against your company. If Mr. Ross had searched the FBI Data on police fatalities he would have found that no police officers have been killed with that particular round. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2006/table33.html

Third, the “assault weapon” ban of 1994 did not rid the country of AK-47 type weapons. It simply made it illegal to purchase any that were made after the bill took affect. And as for President Bush not renewing it, he had stated that he would have signed the bill if it had passed through congress.

Fourth, he should investigate why the BATFE has spent more than $3,000,000 dollars trying to shut down a small Idaho gun store for minor paperwork errors. If this agency needs money for stopping the smuggling into Mexico, maybe they should use the money they are given more wisely.

I think that the anti-gun/anti-second amendment bias your new staff publishes is a disgrace. If you are going to write articles you need to be fair and balanced. With the majority of the weapons this article talks about, he should have investigated the very corrupt Mexican Army/Police. Mr. Ross should research the Mexican armories, and find out how many of these types of firearms and ammo are unaccounted for.

As you can see Mr. Westin, it only took a few minutes for me, an uneducated Army Sergeant to find enough factual information to show that Mr. Ross’ report was full of misleading and untrue information.

Thank you for your time and consideration,

 

[DBSweetwood]

Sorry folks, the e-mail I got for Mr. Westin was wrong. I will have to send it snail mail. Here is his mailing address.

Mr. David Westin
President
ABC News
47 West 66th Street
New York, NY 10023

 

[Regen]

In Mexico and on the border, P90s (full auto, stolen) and IOM or USG 5.7 pistols (stolen as well, more than likely) using the AP ammo (SS190, stolen) are actually fairly common. Not as common as AKs, MACs, or HK clones, mind you, but still common. No deaths in the USA that I'm aware of.

PTK -

Stolen from where? P90s are not legal for Civilian ownership in the USA. So if easy guns are coming from the US, and P90s are common, where are they coming from?

 

[Big45]

DB that was a solid letter, nice job.

 

[pbslinger]

It appears we could have saved much discussion if DMF would have been the first to respond to this thread.

You are incorrect about US LE deaths due to the FN FiveseveN being irrelevant, unless you think the article implied the gun is only dangerous to Mexican LE.

Do you really think the focus of the article is concern for guns going across the border? It is propaganda intended to take rights from law abiding US citizens by any means possible, including lies and deception.

Since you consider this the relevant question: How many Mexican LE have been killed with the FN FiveseveN?

 

[csmkersh]

Some of you are talking about the "Mexican Mafia" and crime in Mexico, when the Mexican Mafia is a US gang.

This is absolutely correct. The real Mexican gangs that are MS-13 and the Zetas.

MS13, while operating in the US, is comprised of Central Americans mostly. Los Zetas are a para-military gang, ex-military and often US trained, provide mules gun cover into the US from Texas to California.


​

 

[Timthinker]

Let me expand upon my earlier post for the sake of clearity. The number of 5.7mm weapons in circulation is relatively small compared to the truly vast number of other weapons available. For this reason alone, the number of LEOs on both sides of the border injured by them should be small, if not zero. This is why I do not consider the 5.7 a player in the violence besetting the law enforcement departments of both nations.

Criminals use available weapons. This is true whether we are speaking of the Russian Mafia, the Mexican Mafia-however someone chooses to define it-or local thugs. Available weaponry is based on practical concerns. I hope this clearifies my position.


Timthinker

 

[OMGWTFBBQ]

How many LEOs have been murdered with 9mm handguns? I'd wager that the number is more than with any other caliber. Does that mean that we should ban all 9mms?

This is just another ploy to divide and conquer by asking the same question that led to the passing of AWB 1, what legitimate reason would a law abiding person have for owning such an item?

 

[Destructo6]

The real Mexican gangs that are MS-13 and the Zetas.

MS is Salvadoran. Marasalvatrucha.

They aren't looking for cheap guns to give mules, they are looking for quality guns

That's not at all my experience here.