How many rounds are adequate capacity for DEFENSE?

[Haycreek]

Since defense situations is likely to involve: 7 yards or less, 3 rounds in 3 seconds, are "high capacity" magazines necessary? That said, I carry either a Glock or a Gov't Model. But I really believe that 6 is enough. What do you think about capacity for the average man on the street that is well armed?

 

[cslinger]

In all honesty I think it comes down to an evaluation of actual risk and basic statistics.

In my case my statistical chance of ever needing a firearm for anything other than entertainment purposes is very nil. It could happen and I am prepared for that but realistically chances are very very slim.

Also take into consideration that the vast majority of situations that involve the use of a firearm to defend ones life never actually result in shots being fired in anger and generally the only thing necessary is a gun. Any gun actually from a Ruger .22 to .500 magnum crazy butt stomper but as long as it looks like a gun chances are the fight stops right there. The great majority of people have an aversion to pain and have been indoctrined by movies and TV to believe the a handgun round will hit you like a freight train.

Now based on the above the statistical chances of me ever needing to actually fire the gun in anger are extremely small. That being said chances are it will be in that contact to 7 foot range and probably won't involve alot of breat, front sight, shoot. More like holy Shi.........jerk trigger...........cry for help.......soil underwear........oh my God I actually got him or he is running for the hills now kind of thing.

I really don't feel undergunned with 5 rounds of .38/.357. Nor do I feel undergunned with 7-9 rounds of .45 or 10 rounds of 9mm or 17 rounds of 9mm.

If you can comfortably carry a Glock 17 with three full caps than hey you probably should. Nobody is ever going to complain about having too many bullets should the time arise. But do I think you will ever actually NEED that extra ammo. I don't think it is likely.

If it is likely then you should re-think your travel habits and situational awareness. My feelings are if 5-10 rounds of ammo doesn't either solve the problem or make my assailants take some kind of cover or retreat then I am in a world of hurt no matter how many rounds I have and I am going to be heading for the nearest rifle........while screaming like a little lost girl.

The best reason to have "HIGH CAP" magazines as in 17-30 rounds is that it really peeves the liberals off to no end.

I only get upset because having a full sized 9mm pistol with only 10 rounds seems so space in-efficient. The silver bullet....ehhh lining of the 94 ban was we now have some absolutely wonderful tiny handguns that pack a heck of a lot of firepower vs. their size. Glock sub compacts, KAHR, SIG 239 etc. and so on.

Once again in a RIOT, Civil unrest, or home defense of multiple attackers I am not even going to be thinking about my handguns.

 

[Handy]

How many attackers? How are they dressed? What caliber are you comfortable firing?

How good are you?



If you give yourself enough credit, you could talk yourself into a single shot derringer. After all, what's the chance that you would need more than one shot in a powerful caliber?

But if you feel you NEED six, why don't you feel that you may as well have 13? Or 20?

 

[treeprof]

Are we including options for reloading a gun w/that capacity, or 6 total?

Statistically speaking, 5-6 should be good almost all the time. But, personally, I 1) never play the odds when the downside is death and 2) find the extremes more interesting than the mean in such circumstances.

Anyone know where there are self defense shooting data that include median, mode, std dev, etc. with respect to shots fired?

 

[rgc]

Let me start by saying . . .

I like hi-cap mags, wish I could afford a few more. However, I also belong to the Jeff Cooper school of thought that if it can't be done with five, six or seven rounds of .45 acp it won't matter what you have with you. (This is of course excluding protection in a riot/home defense situation as noted above by cslinger).

 

[Handy]

Statistically speaking

Which statistics?


There isn't any good data about the sum total of all defensive gunfights, especially broken down in a way that matches your defense profile to similar CCW incidents. There is probably a little variation between the "statistical" needs of someone working a liquor store in Queens and what you might need living in Upper Michigan.

You might get attacked by one angry giant, or 10 midgets. There is no math model to predict that (unless you taunt midgets alot).

You'd have to be nuts to let your Armed Citizen fantasy encounter dictate what you'll "need". Carry the maximum caliber and capacity you can tolerate.

A man who carries a Glock 20 is no better prognosticator than a man who carries a knife. Both are highly unlikely to EVER need it, and both may wish for a machinegun if they do.

 

[MikeJ]

I have to agree with cslinger in that the probability of me ever needing a gun is hopefully, very remote. I would add that depending on where you are when you need a gun influences my opinions on how many rounds are necessary. In a home defense scenario I too envision the situation to be very chaotic with lots of movement and ducking etc. I know statistically that the great majority of armed confrontations where shots are fired are limited to only a few rounds but I still like the idea of having ample rounds available should I miss or have multiple assailants such as in a home invasion. As it is, I keep a Beretta Centurion DAO 9mm next to my bed loaded with 15 rounds of Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints. Having those extra rounds gives me an added feeling of security should the need ever arise. When I go out for a walk in the evening I carry a S&W 640 Centennial and feel very comfortable with that as I view this situation very differently than in my home. I see that as a situation where I need to be able to retreat from the problem and provide a defense in order to do so. In that case I think 5 rounds are adequate. Mike

 

[cslinger]

I agree and that is why I said that if you are comfortable carrying a larger amount of ammo you should carry as much as you can. My point was some people are not able to carry, due to body shape, size whatever a large capacity handgun and reloads.

Personally I would prefer to carry a Glock 21 with two reloads (full capacity magazines). It is, however not practical for me.

What it comes down to is an evaluation of my risk at hand. I wear a seatbelt in my car but it is not a 5 point harness, I have a fire extinquisher or three in my house but no halon fire containment system etc.

I was a boy scout and tend to get caught up in the be prepared mentality but I find that it is very easy to over do it per say. I could work myself up into a frenzy and believe that I need to carry at least two handguns, a revolver and short barreled shotgun. I am not making fun as I really am like this. Heck I wish I could keep a loaded AR in my truck just in case. I find though one must find comfortable mediums. For me I am happy with 5-10 rounds of a caliber .38 or larger and a reload or two.

Could I possibly be involved in an attack by 12 crazed midgits, of course and once I run out of ammo and resort to tossing the little buggers one of them might get me. I will however go to my grave with to thoughts in my head. My mistakes are my own and a question to God that would go something like "What the heck was that for?????" Like I said I am willing to take that chance because I simply cannot practically carry a large handgun with multiple full capacity magazines, along with my keys, flashlight, knives, etc. and so forth.

I fully agree one should carry as much as they can comfortably carry. If somebody told me all they could carry was a .38 snub I wouldn't tell them that they were completely outgunned either. Everybody should however carry at least two reloads not necessarily for ammunition capacity but for malfunctions.

Am I right? Who knows? I think this is simply a very personal decision. Ideally I wish open carry was the norm and not frowned upon and that a slung rifle was a fashion statement. Alas that is not to be.

On a side note did anybody ever see "I'm Gonna Git You Sucka!"? The midgits reminded me of that. "I hate those midgits."

I am going to have bad dreams about getting attacked by midgits tonight. I just know it. Not only will I not be able to pull the trigger, the gun will fall apart, the bullets will come out slowly and there will be an army of midgits running toward me and I will die a horrible death.......laughing my fool butt off at all those little running midgits.

 

[treeprof]

Statistically speaking ....Which statistics?

Yes, exactly, and the basis for my points #1 and 2. The "odds" are one never having to need their gun in the first place, but the outcome of playing those odds wrongly could be severe. And, it's ultimately the consenquence of an event that's important, not the likelihood that it will occur. Likewise, any average is comprised of extremes as well as values close to the mean. For example, if an "average" number of shots fired in four defensive shootings is 5, a person with five rounds would be underarmed half the time if two of those shootings involved single shots and the other two nine shots. Never trust an average, no matter how calculated or defined.

 

[Darrin]

All of them.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Stats go out the window when you are the one making them.

Last time thought I NEEDED a pistol no shots were fired. I was using a 7 shot .380.

I still moved up to a bigger, higher capacity pistol.

Let's hope we never find out how many is enough.

 

[P95Carry]

Probably the 5 - 8 sorta region should suffice most times. It does occur to me tho that just now and again there might be not one BG, but several...... very rare likelehood I admit but it does make you think.

In a firefight of this type, probably you'd want every round you had, and then some ..... in which case 20 to 30 rounds, depending on caliber, would sure help.

I usually don't carry other than what is in the gun ... 5 in snub or 10 in 9mm etc .... but now and again if I know I am to be in what might be a ''higher risk'' area, then I'll have a coupla speedloaders or a spare coupla mags..... ''in case''.

 

[BLiTzNicK]

I always carry a spare mag (speedloader for the J), not because I think I'll need it but because, "I can and I ain't afraid to"

 

[Landric]

Howdy,

The last time I had an encounter off-duty that I thought might involve shots fired (thankfully the situation changed when the people who I thought were going to rob me decided I was not the easy victim they wanted) I was carrying a HK USP40 Compact with 13 rounds, one spare magazine of 12, OC Spray, and a S&W 642 Airweight with 5 rounds in an extra speed strip.

I know that sounds like a lot of hardware, but when the incident happened, I was glad I was carrying a serious handgun and not only a J-Frame, a P32, or other similar type weapon. I was faced with two attackers who were likely armed themselves in an area from which I could not retreat safely. That is exactly the reason I carry what I do, because such things can happen.

Its likely that I will carry all that stuff for years and never even come close to needing it again. However, one can never have too many guns or too much ammo when it comes to a gunfight, but one can not have enough.

I've since changed departments, and as the USP40 C was my issue weapon there, I now longer carry it. I now carry my personal HK USP45 Compact with 9 rounds and a spare 8 round magazine, and I have switched from a 642 to a 342PD. All my other equipment is the same.

So, how much is enough? I don't know. What I do know is that when I leave the house I am carrying a mimumum of two guns and 27 rounds of ammunition in addition to a knife, cell phone, and OC.

 

[10-Ring]

I'd say 5-7 should be enough for most self defense applications.

 

[ACP]

I like Landric's approach, though I'm usually not that thorough. A lot of probable problems can be resolved with a cell phone and a can of OC spray. A knife is worth its itty, bitty weight in gold, IMHO. When I carry a .45 (8+1) I always carry a reload. Same with the J-frame, which I consider an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM with a Speed Strip reload. I usually didn't carry a reload when I carried a Browning Hi Power (13+1) or a Glock 19 (15+1).

To answer the question directly, I feel 5 rounds in gun for two people at very close distance is the minimum, and be prepared to take cover and reload. I'd be comfortable with 25 rounds of .45 ACP (one in gun, two spares) or 27-31 rounds of 9mm. If worse comes to worse, you are wounded and so are they, and you are out of ammo and they are approaching, use the knife.

 

[Penforhire]

Hmm, one poster said it best, the downside is death. I also think I'd have the most amazing tunnel vision and panic response since the threat just isn't that real in training exercises. So I have no doubt I'd be squeezing off wasted rounds and wishing I had a hi-cap mag.

Having said all that, I "feel" safe with six or more rounds. Something about a five-shot revolver crosses the line and makes me queasy. I probably have a deep-seated fear that I'll be attacked by three people, most likely caused by reading too many gun magazine 'true stories.' I used to be uneasy about 7 rounds in my 1911. Got over that. But you know, I still tried a few 8 round mags. Guess I'm still biased below six.

 

[cool45auto]

I feel comfortable with a hi-cap in my Beretta and an extra on my belt. That should be plenty and its not uncomfortable.

 

[WonderNine]

1

 

[Harold Mayo]

I was originally taught to carry two spare magazines in addition to what is in the gun if you are using a single-stack and one spare magazine if you are using a double-column gun. This was supposed to be "enough" for any civilian situation that you might encounter.

Recently, though, I attended the same school and the thought has changed, to my surprise. With domestic terror attacks and active shooters galore, the recommendation is to carry as many spare magazines as you can. Number is largely unspecified but three or four extras is a number that was thrown around a lot.

I will go on record as saying that I feel fine with a 5-shot revolver and no spare ammo. I don't carry a 5-shot revolver with no spare ammo, though. I normally carry a BHP with one spare magazine or a 1911 with one spare magazine. In either case, I carry some loose ammo in a pocket, too. Will I carry a whole bunch of magazines, as per the recommendations at the school? Probably not. I respect their opinion immensely but will not likely carry that many on my person. I normally DO carry several spare loaded magazines in my vehicle, not that that would help in many situations, but I just can't bring myself to load up what I consider TOO much. A primary handgun, spare magazine, Surefire, a knife, possibly a BUG...that's about all I can stand.

I actually think that carrying a lot is a good idea. Odds are that we will NEVER use the gun in a defensive situation. Even if we do, odds are that it will be over in a few shots. We're playing the odds here, though, and, if we stop at carrying only one spare magazine (or none), we're betting that we'll never need them just like by NOT carrying, we would be betting that we wouldn't need the gun. It's just a matter of what level of risk you accept.

 

[Newton]

I disagree with logic being applied here, the question should be:

Why would you want fewer rounds.

It is for this reason that a hi cap 9mm loaded with premium +P JHPs is still the most effective handgun combination available.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

It is for this reason that a hi cap 9mm loaded with premium +P JHPs is still the most effective handgun combination available.

So Newton, everything else is second best? I'm not a big fan of absolutism, but if that combo works for you great.

But I've never felt 'undergunned' with my lowely 10 rounds of .45 and in my (hopefully only) situation, four rounds sufficed to stop the threat.

Would 15+ of 9mm worked any better? I don't know. One round of .454 Casull? Who knows?

It's not a question of 'wanting fewer rounds' but of making the most efficient use of however many rounds you have.

My G30 holds ten rounds, and if I am in a defensive situation and need more than that, I've really screwed the pooch somewhere along the line and another magazine probably won't help.

 

[RCL]

In the area I live in 6 more than likely would be enough for social carry. However, when I'm out woods loafing (farm country with large woodlots) it's not that uncommon to see a dog pack with 4 or more animals in it. For reasoms such as that I'll usually carry my 11 shot .45.

 

[DontShootMe]

Well...

10 rounds.

Anything more and you are a gang-banger with evil intentions.

oh wait, thats sooooo 1990's... correction:

Anything more and you are a terrorist with evil intentions.

oh, excuse me, I thought this was Liberals-r-us.com

But really,

After all the money I've spent on ammo and practice, I feel I can defend myself quite well with my lowly G17 and it's original pre-Clinton magazine.

If that does not do the job, I'll run and scream like a baby and wish I was at home with mama.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As any statistician will tell you, statistics break down when applied to individual cases. People drown in creeks that average 6 inches deep. People run out of ammo in situations where ON THE AVERAGE only a few rounds are fired.

There is no reason NOT to carry a reload. I normally carry an M1911 in Condition 1, that's an 8-round mag, and one up the spout. A second 8-round mag gives me 17 rounds.