Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why so many rounds?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Kano383, Dec 28, 2016.

  1. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,448
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Bottom line is carry is always a compromise between comfort and capability. If it was possible to have a 25 shot, light recoiling, .45 caliber pistol that was the size of a Shield that is what we would carry and we would not be having this conversation. But physics being what it is, we don't. So we make compromises. We compromise on caliber so we can have more rounds or a bigger bullet and compromise on capacity, the classic 9mm or .45 debate. We find a Desert Eagle a bit much to conceal and carry so we carry smaller.

    Why are so many people so upset that someone is carrying a bigger gun or more rounds and have to argue with people who say they are comfortable with carrying larger and having more rounds?

    You should carry the largest gun you can conceal comfortably with as much ammo you can carry comfortably. Is there anyone who disputes this?

    For some people this is a bigger gun than other people will carry. For some people it is more ammo than other people. I don't know about other people but carrying uncomfortably is a grind over a long period of time every day. You start to try to smooth it out as you go along. You try holsters, generally a lot of different holsters. You try different guns trying to find your balance point. You put magazines in pockets or on the belt or just leave them home. I'm a minority, I'm still carrying the same gun I first bought for concealed carry. But most people change guns several times. Been through holsters, I've carried no spare magazine, one spare magazine and am currently carrying two spare magazines on my belt and have found its more comfortable than one magazine in a pocket with better access. So am I now supposed to get rid of a magazine because its unpopular and some guy on the internet says its excessive? I don't think so. I've worked it out for myself. Everyone has to work it out and their choices are not going to be mine necessarily either.
     
    coyotehitman likes this.
  2. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    4,145
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    Of the few gunfights I've been involved in, I got to choreograph none of them. And when I have that ability, I'll just avoid them entirely.

    Until then, I'll conceal whatever I comfortably/practically/legally can. Some days that's a G19 with an extended mag, others an LCP in the pocket, and often no gun at all.

    And after all that, I go on living my life.
     
  3. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    18,364
    Location:
    Deep in the Ozarks
    I'll make everyone a deal. You carry as much ammo as you think you need, and I'll carry as much as I think I need, and we won't question each others' decisions.
     
  4. danez71

    danez71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,497
    Location:
    CAAZ


    But on the last page you said 1-3 rounds.

    Moving on to this page.....:


    Using your analysis, 5 of the 20 incidences were 4 or more shots equaling 25%.

    I'm sure you'll want to ignore this as you did the last time I pointed out the statistics of your posts,...


    Again, while 25% doesn't pass the threshold to become 'usually', 25% is a pretty significant #, don't you think?

    So lets recap, using your data and your analysis, 30% of the time it will be 2 or more attackers. Of multiple attacker situations, 25% of the time 4 or more shots occurred.

    :thumbup:
     
    Browning likes this.
  5. Rayzer007

    Rayzer007 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2016
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Western New York
    My 2 cents:

    Successful self defense encounters are not determined by the number of bullets you have, as much as the correctly executed second-and--half decision whether or not to shoot (1), drawing the weapon onto the target (2), and pulling the trigger without jerking the gun (3). Any mistake in these three parameters results in huge and immediate problems (physical, legal, emotional and financial). This is simplistic, but I believe they are the core issues. Variations of the hypothetical situations are infinite and need to be addressed at the particular moment they present themselves. Always thinking about potential problems and possible responses may be more important than shooting thousands of bullets at targets. I don't shoot that often, but have never had a problem hitting acceptably close to center of mass at 10' when I do shoot, however, I constantly evaluate potential scenarios. The game is in the mind first and foremost. The first shot (as opposed to the 7th,17th, or 27th) is critical, as you may not get another one.
    JMHO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
    loneviking likes this.
  6. loneviking

    loneviking Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Carson City, NV.
    100% of the time the number of rounds found in a six shot revolver or a nine shot single stack are enough.
     
  7. loneviking

    loneviking Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Carson City, NV.
    Nope, I don't dispute your statement at all. But, how do you work out what's enough? Internet guru's? Vehement assertions on gun forums? Or real life.
     
  8. oldrevolverguy

    oldrevolverguy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    91
    I think we all agree that being involved in an armed encounter, particularly as a CHL holder is a statistical anomaly in and of itself. Similar to being struck by lightening. To then attempt to establish "odds" about the actions that may be required to survive such an anomaly is mathematical folie. The decision to be armed is a very personal one that is hard to articulate for many. Precisely what you arm yourself with may based on any number of factors including your life experience, life style, physical capabilities, economic situation, choice of reading materials and professional defense training to name a few. The original question "Why so many rounds in the magazine?". The answers to that question is by definition unique for each of us. One size does not fit all. If you decide to go armed, I recommend becoming a student of this martial art. Learn everything you can, get all the training you can afford and practice as often as circumstances allow. Whatever weapon system you choose, however many reloads you carry; if it contributes to your sense of well being and confidence that you can protect you and yours, then our common goal is met.
     
    scaatylobo likes this.
  9. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,448
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Its actually pretty simple, try to carry it and see if it works for you. If you can carry it then continue to carry it. If you can't then don't. Why accept limitations placed on you by someone on the internet you never met on what you are capable of doing. There is a correct answer for individuals there is not a correct answer for the masses. The individual needs to find and define his own answers. He can only do this by pushing and finding his own limits and answers.

    There are people on this forum who will tell everyone that it is not possible to carry a double stack, its not possible to carry a couple of magazines. At the same time there are numerous people doing exactly that and are quite happy with their choices. If you don't try how do you know?
     
    Chuck R. likes this.
  10. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,687
    Location:
    Western NYS

    AND ,NEVER has a victim ever said " gee,I wish I was carrying LESS rounds and a smaller gun".

    That is the only FACT that I need to know.

    I would be ever so grateful if I knew when [ if ever AGAIN ] that I will need a gun to save myself.

    It would be much easier to dress and wear 'fashionable' clothing [ Like I actually would ].

    And carrying a gun is NOT supposed to be "comfortable = its COMFORTING..

    If you have never been anywhere where that matters,good for you.

    PLEASE,all who read these missives ----- choose for yourself,and live [ or do not live ] with the outcome.
     
    Browning likes this.
  11. coyotehitman

    coyotehitman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    543
    Loneviking, how many gunfights have you been involved in? I've had the misfortune of experiencing several, both stateside and in other venues. I can tell you this, I never, ever, walked away upset with having too many rounds.
     
    scaatylobo likes this.
  12. usp9

    usp9 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,633
    Location:
    Bowling Green, Va
    However, the question on the table is how many rounds are used in defensive shootings, not how upset you are or how many rounds you had left over. In reading this thread one can see the answer is 5-50. The answer varies depending on how big the target is on your back.
     
    loneviking likes this.
  13. Mike J

    Mike J Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,123
    Location:
    Georgia
    I don't really understand what the big deal is about this. Many people don't carry guns-that is their choice & it doesn't bother me a bit. Some guys are comfortable with a 5 shot 38. Some of us prefer autos & different levels of capacity. Personally I generally carry a polymer pistol of some sort that is 9mm or larger in caliber with a double stack magazine & a spare mag. I tend to think if I am going to go to the trouble to carry a pistol it is very little more trouble to carry a spare magazine. Once in a while I even carry a 1911 with 7 + 1 in the pistol & a couple of spare mags. It does depend on where I am going & what I am doing.
     
    scaatylobo and Rayzer007 like this.
  14. danez71

    danez71 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,497
    Location:
    CAAZ

    False. Or at least 50% false.

    One of those cited was 7 rounds shot so a 6 shot revolver wasn't enough which accounts for about 5% of the time.


    Aside from that, do you have any evidence to support your claim above?
     
    Browning and scaatylobo like this.
  15. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7,074
    Location:
    SC (Home), VA (Work)
    Presumably as a point of discussion where people express their viewpoints and their logic behind them.

    The thoughts of the OP seem to center around the bulk of the extra ammo as being an overall detriment to the shooter's ability, as well as contribiting towards what is euphamistically termed "spray and pray":

    "My thoughts are that for the realistic threat faced by the vast majority of us, non-professionally involved in violent action, there are more disadvantages than advantages to the trend of more-is-better."

    Now, granted a great many of us here on THR have participated in this type of discussion before, and certainly we have quite a spread of personal beliefs on the matter. But the OP in new to this site and he's likely not encountered such a diversity of viewpoints and reasonings.

    We're not here to create a "drama" over the issue. In this thread, we're supposed to address and discuss the concerns the OP has brought up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
    scaatylobo, loneviking and Kano383 like this.
  16. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    12,034
    Location:
    DFW Area
    You're still focusing on the strawman of the increased chances of an attack and throwing in a bunch of other red herrings to try to confuse the issue. The real discussion is about how many rounds required to address a particular number of attackers, not the chances of being in a gunfight in the first place.

    Of course there's a big difference between me and Lance, but there's no reason it should take him more rounds to address a given number of attackers effectively than it should take me. Therefore, the number of rounds he had to fire to neutralize a given number of attackers definitely does count.
    My figures are taken from Paul Kirchner's book "The Deadliest Men". Kirchner, in his book provides the following stats for the Lance Thomas shootings. Rounds fired/hit numbers are from Lance's gun.

    1st shootout: 2 attackers, 3 rounds fired, one hit, 0 BGs killed, 1 BGs wounded, 1BG fled. Lance hit 0 times.
    2nd shootout: 5 criminals (4 attackers, one driver), 18-19 rounds fired, 2 BG killed, 0 BGs wounded, 3 BG fled. Lance hit 4 times.
    3rd shootout: 2 criminals (male with a female accomplice), 8 rounds fired, 1 BG killed, 0 BGs wounded, 1 BG fled. Lance hit 1 times.
    4rth shootout: 2 attackers, 10-11 rounds fired, 2 BG killed, 0 BGs wounded, 0 BG fled. Lance hit 0 times.

    Ayoob provides similar figures for the encounters indicating that Thomas faced 11 criminals in 4 shootings; shooting 6, killing 5, while being shot 5 times in the process. Ayoob states that Thomas fired 10 shots per encounter on average.
    Only if you studiously omit/ignore any incident where they aren't enough.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
    Browning and scaatylobo like this.
  17. DT Guy

    DT Guy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,152
    Is that what I said? The OP was about 'high capacity' (SIC) magazines in a pistol; a reductio ad absurdum argument is inappropriate when there's already context for my reply, isn't it?


    Larry
     
  18. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,286
    Location:
    TEXAS!
    I really don't care what the 'average' rounds per encounter is.

    It's better to have and not need than need and not have. If my weapon can hold 18 and still be concealable and reasonably powerful, sure go that way.

    But I sure would not carry a gun with just x number of rounds cause some silly study says the 'average' number of rounds fired is x.

    Deaf
     
    Browning and scaatylobo like this.
  19. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,273
    Location:
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    I carry a 1911, it's a single stack with seven rounds on board. I also carry reloads for several reasons. In short, I have never read an AAR that concluded it was better to have a smaller firearm and less ammunition.
     
    scaatylobo likes this.
  20. Mikhail Weiss

    Mikhail Weiss Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    378
    You have no control over how many rounds it may take to stop a bad guy. You do have control over how many rounds you may use.

    As others have said, carry what you will.

    Carry on...
     
    scaatylobo and Rayzer007 like this.
  21. loneviking

    loneviking Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Carson City, NV.
    This is what I've been trying to do. Thanks for hopefully getting the thread back on track.
     
    scaatylobo likes this.
  22. loneviking

    loneviking Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Carson City, NV.
    Nope, it's not , because by your logic there would never be enough rounds--either in the gun or in any extra mags.
     
  23. guyfromohio

    guyfromohio Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,772
    Location:
    ohio
    "I wish I didn't have all this extra ammo" said no gun-fight survivor ever.
     
    scaatylobo and Blacksmoke like this.
  24. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    813
    Location:
    Colorado
    And....it may not be! I carry 27 rounds total on my person, because that's what I deem reasonable for my circumstances. Others choose less, some opt for more. I'm okay with that. Who are we to second guess the perceived needs of others?
    I hope I never need that 28th round that I don't have on me....I probably won't, and will have wasted my time.

    A lot of times, merely presenting a firearm is enough to dissuade a would be attacker.....
    Should I leave my iron empty? That'd save me some weight, and would still save me from your "typical" lowly gutless criminal.

    This whole debate is silly.
     
    RetiredUSNChief and scaatylobo like this.
  25. Blacksmoke

    Blacksmoke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    622
    Location:
    North central New Mexico
    I have zero expectation of presenting a firearm when attacked and not discharging it. When I do, it will be multiple rounds. I train for three rounds which is half my capacity. Therefore, at least one cylinder or magazine reload seems prudent. By the time I pull a weapon, all other means of settlement and negotiation have been exhausted and only a split second or so remains before I am in jeopardy. This is based upon my experiences.
     
    loneviking likes this.

Share This Page