How significant would a new AWB and a 10 round limit be to rifle effectiveness?

[thump_rrr]

I think everyone here is missing the point.
In Canada we have a 5 round limit on semi auto rifle magazines and a 10 round limit on semi auto pistol magazines.
The thing is that my 5 round magazines are 30 round P Mags with a pop rivet stopping the follower from accepting more rounds.

As we all know an aluminum pop rivet will prevent future events such as the one that occured last week.

 

[JustinJ]

JustinJ, 10 rounds is sufficient until that 10th round fails to stop the last BG. Home invasions are rarely one person, 2, 3 and 4 are common (sometimes even 5). If I had to defend against 4 people, I'd want more than 2-3 rounds per attacker. Assuming 100% hit rate that's still not a guarantee to stop the threat.

Uh huh. And please indicate some cases in which a person had to use 10 plus rounds to defend their home.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Another sign of a troll is that they don't post after stiring things up....

 

[David E]

Uh huh. And please indicate some cases in which a person had to use 10 plus rounds to defend their home.

Meanwhile, why don't you cite all the times someone was in a gunfight and during the fight wished they had downloaded their full capacity magazines to 10 rds or less.

 

[r1derbike]

Cabelas was selling their 30 round pmags today the same price as their 20 round pmags; $14.99.

There were only 2 left on a peg hook, where their multiple hooks were full of them, several hours earlier. I didn't see any black rifles, and customers were buying a bit of everything, at the counters.

 

[r1derbike]

I think everyone here is missing the point.
In Canada we have a 5 round limit on semi auto rifle magazines and a 10 round limit on semi auto pistol magazines.
The thing is that my 5 round magazines are 30 round P Mags with a pop rivet stopping the follower from accepting more rounds.

As we all know an aluminum pop rivet will prevent future events such as the one that occured last week.

Is that legal in Canada?

 

[d2wing]

The bottom line is it is not about what we need for hunting or self defense, it is about we need to be as well armed as the government or the second amendment is not doing it's job. To reduce the argument to what is needed for any purpose other than tyranny is wrong.
You can bet there would be less crime if law abiding citizens walked around with semi-auto rifles with hi cap mags. Especially in malls, schools and theaters.

 

[bassdogs]

Seriously guys, no one wants to answer my question. How does expanding the already existing controls on civilian ownership of machine [full auto] firearms to include hi capacity semi autos that can put massive firepower down range in a very short period of time? The difficulty would be only in defining the prohibited weapons. It has been decades since the full auto ban. Back then a semi auto 911 had many fewer rounds and the semi autos maybe 6 -8 rounds. Correct me if I am misstaken but more so than the rate of fire, it was the amount of lead in a short period of time that caused them to place a ban on full auto weapons.

I believe we the gun community have operated under the cover of the full auto vs semi auto description, to develop and advance the capabilities of the semi auto to where we see it today. Most AR's are pretty much full military with the exception of the selector. Case in point is the Hollywood bank shootout several years ago. First responders at that time were armed only with sidearms and shotguns. They went to local gun stores and borrowed civilian AR's to use against the bad guys until the SWAT teams could engage.

Happened to see a show last night, something about fighting against a Zombie virus. A bunch of crazy's running around mostly with AR's plotting and shooting at hords of imaginary Zombies while discussing if they could shoot their own kids if they became infected. An we wonder why the public has grown wary of the evil black rifle. Skip to the rifle section of THR and check out the AR/AK threads. Mine has this or should I add this to mine. Look at my Zombie killer AR. ETC, ETC ETC!! Sorry guys, I think we may lose this one this time. The dumb A**es in DC don't accomplish a lot and most of what they do they do for the wrong reasons, but I think the general public including many gun owners and many gun enthusist have grown weary of the "assault" style civilian weapons. Let's pray that they stop with the rifles and leave our handguns alone.

 

[David E]

Seriously guys, no one wants to answer my question.

Further restrictions are unacceptable! They will only affect the law abiding.

If the cops and military were affected by any new or reintroduced laws FIRST, and a positive effect was proven, then we might talk.

How does expanding the already existing controls on civilian ownership of machine [full auto] firearms to include hi capacity semi autos that can put massive firepower down range in a very short period of time?

Read that 3 times and couldn't find a question.

It has been decades since the full auto ban. Back then a semi auto 911 had many fewer rounds and the semi autos maybe 6 -8 rounds. Correct me if I am mistaken

You're mistaken. There's never been a ban on full autos. And what's a "semi auto 911?"

but more so than the rate of fire, it was the amount of lead in a short period of time that caused them to place a ban on full auto weapons.

There's NO ban.

I believe we the gun community have operated under the cover of the full auto vs semi auto description, to develop and advance the capabilities of the semi auto to where we see it today.

That's an ignorant statement. In truth, the antis use the confusion between full auto and semi auto to ban or severely regulate the semis. Josh Sugarman of Handgun Control bragged about that very thing.

Most AR's are pretty much full military with the exception of the selector.

There's more to it than that.

Case in point is the Hollywood bank shootout several years ago. First responders at that time were armed only with sidearms and shotguns. They went to local gun stores and borrowed civilian AR's to use against the bad guys until the SWAT teams could engage.

I missed the part where the cops dropped in a selector making their borrowed AR's full auto.

An we wonder why the public has grown wary of the evil black rifle.

i don't wonder; i just don't care. Do you seriously think that the antis ONLY hate EBR's?

but I think the general public including many gun owners and many gun enthusist have grown weary of the "assault" style civilian weapons.

Really? Please explain why the AR is the most popular centerfire rifle in the country, then.

Let's pray that they stop with the rifles and leave our handguns alone.

Ten round magazines will apply to handguns. The antis have gone after handguns before and certainly will again. There is NO gun acceptable in their eyes.

Tell me, at what point will the antis be satisfied? I'll tell you when: right after they confiscate YOUR guns.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Correct me if I am misstaken but more so than the rate of fire, it was the amount of lead in a short period of time that caused them to place a ban on full auto weapons.

You clearly have very little understanding of what the NFA really is, and of how it came to be.

Tell ya what, why don't you and your AHSA friends avow to be part of your "solution" by not buying these awful black rifles, and then leave the rest of us alone to fight to fight.

Quit taking up THR bandwidth with this nonsense, because you're not convincing anyone. "Compromise" for "reasonable restrictions" (no such thing) is exactly what this forum is dedicated to stopping through civil, thoughful discourse and lawful action.

 

[JustinJ]

Meanwhile, why don't you cite all the times someone was in a gunfight and during the fight wished they had downloaded their full capacity magazines to 10 rds or less.

Some people in a gunfight might wish they had placed mortars at the front door. So what? That has nothing to do with the op's question?

 

[Skribs]

The idea of being able to kill your own family members in a zombie apocalypse has nothing to do with high capacity magazines, and makes me really think you're an ASHA troll.

Explain to me this: how would a ban on 30-round magazines prevent criminals from getting 30 round magazines? It won't happen.

The reason we keep using the distinction is 1) to show how little anti's know about weapons and 2) because it IS a technical term. I think they should both be legal.

 

[Motodeficient]

The OP doesn't get it. An AWB or "High capacity" magazine ban is only the FIRST step they will take.

 

[razorback2003]

This will be a step followed by steps to ban all semi auto firearms, pump action firearms, then levers. We will sadly be like Australia and the UK.

 

[Motodeficient]

Exactly. The mere fact that they are targeting a type of weapon that is used in a such a small percentage of shootings, tells you that their agenda is really something other than what they say it is. This is just the first step in the process. And why we can't concede even on this.

 

[David E]

Some people in a gunfight might wish they had placed mortars at the front door. So what? That has nothing to do with the op's question?

Post #54 you ridicule soneone for stating 10 rds is fine until you need 11+, then you challenge why anyone would need more than ten rounds to defend the home.

I was responding to that, as you know.

I trust you've downloaded all your hicap magazines to ten, yes?

 

[David White]

A dynamic shooting scenario might very well only require three rounds to stop. Then again, there are a variety of situations that require many more rounds to be fired if you want to survive it.
The point is, don't assume you know just how many rounds you'll need to survive the encounter.
I like that my .40 cal has 15+1 capacity. I carry two spare mags because I can't predict the situation that I may find myself in.
It's always better to think "boy! I sure am glad that things worked out and I didn't need those extra rounds!".
I find that a MUCH better alternative than some one finding my corpse after the shoot out with a five shot spent revolver clutched in my dead hands!

If you don't have the tools you need on you, at the time you need them, you might not get the chance to learn from your mistake.
You might be dead.

I'll stick with my hi-cap mags! You can carry the five shot revolver, wishing you had more shots available!

 

[LNK]

The civilian version of the popular M16 / M4 is the semi auto AR15. Let me throw out this fact. Military assault rifles were long ago changed to short burst / semi auto fire. They were found to be more effective than full auto. Other than the burst selection, there is now very little difference between the M16 and the AR15 platforms, and makes the argument that these are not assault weapons much harder to make.

Unless you think 3 round burst and 1 round semi are the same, I don't see how you can make that statement. What about SAW's? Each unit has one, why? There is a huge difference between what the military has and what civilians are allowed to own. Where can you get AP ammo? The military has it. What about API? So what is the difference between a mini 14 and an AR-15? Besides evil black looking thing......

Really, this is not hard to argue.....Once you think their position has legs. You've lost....

LNK

 

[Skribs]

I just thought of another way to word it:

Magazine capacity applies the biggest penalty when A) you already carry a LOT of magazines or B) you only have the magazine in your gun loaded with ammo.

In the case of carrying a lot of magazines (say stuffing them into a backpack) it will do a little bit to limit your capacity, by causing extra weight and bulk per round. Even so, you can fit a lot of 10-round magazines into a backpack. For someone prepared with reloads, it probably won't matter.

If you are not prepared with backups, it will cause a limitation. If you need that 11th round and you have a spare on your hip or 5 spares in your safe in a HD situation, then you might be fine with a reload. If you have 10 rounds in the mag and a spare box of ammunition in the closet, it's going to take a long time to reload.

So in essence, such a law would do very little to curb the amount of ammunition a shooter can use during his rampage, but would potentially limit the defender. Even if the shooter obeyed all gun laws until his rampage, it wouldn't have any effect on the end result.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Where can you get AP ammo? The military has it. What about API?

A lot of places. I justed picked up another 100 rounds of .50 BMG API last week. Armor piercing handgun ammunition is unlawful to own in the USA, but AP, API, APIT and even explosive* ammunition is perfectly legal for rifles.

Be careful. Make sure your "facts" are actually facts before you start arguing your case with them. You can be 99% correct, but one small error will cast doubt over everything you've said, and you'll end up on the defensive.

*Must be .50 caliber or under and not contain more than 1/4 oz explosive compound. Rounds larger than .50 and/or containing more than 1/4 oz explosive compound are still legal, but are an NFA regulated destructive device.

 

[bassdogs]

To each of your comments, I say you know exactly what I was saying. 911 is a typo for a 1911, get my drift?. No there isn't a ban on full auto's for civilian's rather they require very restrictive and expensive licensing. No one said the cops in the Hollywood incident added "selector" to the weapons they acquired from the gun stores. Rather the point that they made use of civilian AR's.

You have your opinion and others have their opinion. I have crossed over to the dark side if you want to define it that way. I have tired of the retoric [sp] that you spew in your comments. My comments are pretty straight forward. You may not agree with them, but nit picking them with comments like what is a "911" or there is no ban on full auto just goes to prove you really don't want to engage in an adult conversation on the subject.

We'll just have to see how this all shakes out. If history repeats itself, nothing will be done. If recent incidents have excited enough in the middle, you may come out on the losing side this time.

 

[bassdogs]

The idea of being able to kill your own family members in a zombie apocalypse has nothing to do with high capacity magazines, and makes me really think you're an ASHA troll.

Explain to me this: how would a ban on 30-round magazines prevent criminals from getting 30 round magazines? It won't happen.

The reason we keep using the distinction is 1) to show how little anti's know about weapons and 2) because it IS a technical term. I think they should both be legal.

Not an ASHA troll! Don't even know what that is, but then I take encouragement when those who oppose my opinion quickly resort to name calling and nit picking rather than meaningful dialogue.

Anyway there is no troll here. Just a gun owner [more guns in my household than the cache apparently in the shooters home] who can no longer ignore the arguments I am hearing from many like you. With that said, you are welcome to your opinion and so am I.

I say we do not need hi cap semi auto rifles like AR's or AK's any more than civilians need full auto. Others seem to fall on the 2nd Ad to justify cannons and drone mounted mini guns for the folks. Failure of the gun community starting with the NRA and others like them to admit that we have a problem in America will lead I fear to legislation that gun owners won't like and won't be effective either.

Now I'm done here. My point has been made. We'll just have to sit back now and see how this shakes out.

 

[David E]

My comments are pretty straight forward.

no, not really

You may not agree with them, but nit picking them with comments like what is a "911" or there is no ban on full auto just goes to prove you really don't want to engage in an adult conversation on the subject.

You called a gun a "911" and said full autos were banned For all I know, you're wanting to ban "AK-15's" like Bill O'reilly. Words matter.

As far as addressing your questions, I already did: No further restrictions are acceptable.

If recent incidents have excited enough in the middle, you may come out on the losing side this time.

"You" as in gunowner? Odd you don't seem to include yourself in that group....

 

[gym]

Can individual states opt out of enforcing these new laws. Or possiblly just issue a fine for mags over the new amount, "should this happen". Obviouslly no one knows how many assault type weapons are out and about, "legal and not". Plus there will always be a black market from some countries who sell millions of AK type rifles to vendors here in the states.
That's why this is so stupid to begin with. Also if you were to shoot someone breaking in, "or a group" as in a home invasion, "I had 5 armed men in my apartment in 1979", would you not just put a 10 rounder in after the fact.
I have a feeling that something will happen because of this fuss, that could make it seem futile to bother with this nonsense. Either some copy cat, or a different type of destructive device, just because of the amount of press this is getting.
This kid could have just as easily chained the doors closed, and set fire to the building, or a dozen other ways to kill hundreds more people. Since Colombine many disturbed young men have sought this method of murdering innocents, most have been stopped before they could act, but this is getting way too much press, and I am sure that other unbalanced young men, have been triggered by scenes from this horrific event.
I for one am holding my breath, hoping that another lunatic or group of them is not planning something else while we all mourn the loss of those who perished.

 

[roscoe]

Here’s a few the media hasn’t told you about:
• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.

• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.

• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.

• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.

• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.

• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.

• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.

• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.
http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12...izens.html?m=1
youngda9 is offline Report Post Quick reply to this message

You got links for the top ones? Would be helpful.