How well can you shoot with a centerfire handgun?

How accurately can you shoot a defensive style handgun?

  • 4 MOA or better (~ 1" @ 25yds)

    Votes: 16 5.5%

  • 4 to 8 MOA (~1 - 2.1" @ 25yds)

    Votes: 47 16.1%

  • 8 to 16 MOA (~2.1 - 4.2" @ 25yds)

    Votes: 106 36.3%

  • 16 to 24 MOA (~4.2 - 6.3" @ 25yds)

    Votes: 73 25.0%

  • 24 to 40 MOA (~6.3 - 10.5" @ 25yds)

    Votes: 42 14.4%

  • 40 to 60 MOA (~10.5 - 15.7" @ 25yds)

    Votes: 4 1.4%

  • Worse than 60 MOA (~15.7 @ 25yds)

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Total voters
    292
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I voted 16-24 MOA.

I usually shoot from a ready position and get hits as fast as possible. The exception is my .357 I deer hunt with ocassionally, thats about 3" at 25 yards. So, 99 percent of my shooting is minute of torso.
 
24 - mucho MOA

For a defensive handgun and "defensive style" shooting, my goal is to hold COM on a B27, about a 7-8" group, regardless of distance. As distance decreases, speed increases. depending on the handgun it varies from 1-2 seconds per shot at 25 yards, to 1-3 shots per second at 7'. I try to balance speed and accuracy.

Shooting slow the groups improve dramatically sub 3" at 25 yards are possible with a Smith 686 or 629. But taking the better part of a minute to fire 6 rounds doesn't always equate to good defensive accuracy.
 
Wow, kudos to the guys that can shoot 1" groups at 25 yards off hand. :what: Some of my guns can't do that out of a ransom rest! With one of my accurate guns, 3-4" is about my average. I'll NEVER be able to shoot as good as the gun, which would be about 1" at 25 yards for most of 'em except my compacts and one 9mm. The guns that I have that will shoot 4moa are all full size guns and all revolvers except for my P90, which is this accurate.

See, I thought keeping 'em in the nine/ten ring of a slow fire bullseye target was quite good until I found out 9 folks can keep 'em all in the X ring.:what: I have shot as high as 99 whatever X on a bullseye target, but I always get at least one of 'em out in the 9 ring and usually more. I've yet to shoot a perfect 100.:banghead: I am good enough to hit a rabbit out to 25 yards and that's all I really care about. Defensive shooting is a piece of cake. Heck, I think Ray Charles could have qualified for a Texas CCW.:rolleyes: But, 1" at 25 yards? Heck will freeze over and I'll never be that good.

BTW, there's far more to my handgunning than just self defense. I hunt and I handgun hunt. I carry an accurate handgun even if I'm just hiking outdoors. I've shot IHMSA, done all sorts of action competition and some local bullseye. I love carrying a handgun outdoors, but if you can't hit game with it, why bother? So, I see a GOOD reason to be as accurate in slow fire as possible. Not everyone that carries a handgun wants to go have a gunfight, kill people. Sure, I carry for self defense, but I have enough skills to do that and then some. I've never actually shot at a human, but have killed many rabbits and squirrels with handguns and a few deer. Squirrel are a lot smaller than a human torso and you can take your time on 'em since they have no chance of shooting back.

For the above reasons, I try to be as accurate as I can and I practice precision shooting a lot, more than I do going through self defense scenarios or other such BS. If the chips fall and I have to defend myself, I know what to do, trust me. I've shot IDPA, too, lotta fun. But, I do practice precision shooting. Try as I might, I cannot get 4moa good with a handgun, though. By the looks of the vote, I'm with the majority, at the median of the curve.
 
I can shoot 3 and 4 inch groups at 25 yards with my 6" 686 using .38 special target loads. I won't win many bullseye championships that way though. I have to admit the group size grows a bit with full house .357. I also have a J-Frame. I'm not nearly as proficient with it, and don't shoot it at 25. At 7 yards, it's about a 6 inch group gun with defensive loads and me shooting it. An expert would do better I'm sure.
 
Hey, Terrierman, a J frame can be accurate! Most of the little guns shoot great out of a ransom rest, it's just aligning that short sight radius that's a killer. I shoot 6" falling plates well with my little Taurus at 25 yards, consistant hits if I concentrate and take my time, even DA. Don't take no expert, just some practice.
 
No specifics on stance? One hand or two hand? Hmm...

Well with my Colt Diamondback 4" .38spl, I can hold right around 4" at 25yds with one-hand/single-action. Same with my Kimber .45acp. -I know it's more accurate than that, but I'm not yet.

My Ruger P85 9mm won't print those groups at 25yds, but at 50' or less -The bad guy's gonna have a series of double taps and probably end up toes up.

My Ruger SP101 isn't up to that either, but hey as a snub defense weapon I don't expect it to. But at 25' I can trim some tree branches.

Heaven forbid mine or I get attacked when I've got one of my rimfire Bullseye pistols in hand with a full mag. I can just see the coronors report now:

  • One slug in each eye.
  • Two front teeth shot out.
  • Broken nose. (yes there's lead there too.)
  • Knee caps are shattered. (more lead)
  • Three more slugs at the base of the sternum.

There's this 6" steel plate sitting out at the 100yd burm that I can tag 5 out of 6 times off-hand/single-action with my Ruger 5 1/2" Redhawk in .44mag. -Although I don't usually carry that one as my personal defense weapon unless I'm out in the woods.

-Steve
 
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OK, time to put the puddi'n where my typing is.

Unfortunately I don't have a photo of several of the 99 and 98's I've shot. But here's a 93 score for rimfire at 25yds.
http://www.cnw.com/~hotrod/Toys/GunStuff/93Score25ydsOneHand.JPG

That's ten rounds in two five shot strings fired one handed during competition. Unfortunately those two fliers really hurt my score on that target.

I have a 50' target hanging on my office wall that is a 97 score with 3 nines. The rest are 10's. Total group spread is 1 1/4".

It's a challenge with a bullseye rimfire pistol that's capable of making one ragged hole at that distance. But one helluva lot more of a challenge with a larger caliber pistol.

-Steve
 
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*


Uhhhh, guys....

The NRA Outdoor pistol 50 yard slow fire target has a 10 ring that is about 3.34 inches in diameter. In registered competition that target has been cleaned (perfect score, twenty shots) twice in the .45 course, twice in centerfire, and four times in .22 rimfire. Ever.

Now I know that it happens wayyy more often when nobody's watching, but I still think that those of us who routinely group 1 inch at 25 yards really ought to volunteer to teach those pistol competitors how to shoot.

Just my two centibucks.


*
 
SA, with my Makarov, 4-6" off hand at 25 yds. on a good day. More commonly it's in the 8-12" range. The pistol's better than I am! My Kel-Tec 3AT throws a much larger pattern.

I was at a Rendezvous last weekend and watched a guy shoot a Kentucky pistol (muzzleloader/percussion/round ball)- 1 handed, at 50 yds- shoot a 93xxx out of a possible 100xxxxx! I, on the other hand, shot in the 40's. Looks like I need a LOT of practice.

Doug
 
Uhhhh, guys....

The NRA Outdoor pistol 50 yard slow fire target has a 10 ring that is about 3.34 inches in diameter. In registered competition that target has been cleaned (perfect score, twenty shots) twice in the .45 course, twice in centerfire, and four times in .22 rimfire. Ever.

Now I know that it happens wayyy more often when nobody's watching, but I still think that those of us who routinely group 1 inch at 25 yards really ought to volunteer to teach those pistol competitors how to shoot.

Just my two centibucks.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, I was trying to be a little bit sarcastic in my post to the 4 moa guys without being mean about it, but yeah, my "BS flags" were flyin' when I saw that. ROFLMAO! I'm no bullseye shooter, but I'm pretty accurate off hand. I ain't NEVER gonna be that accurate. That's what most of my really accurate guns will shoot out of a ransom rest with a good load. I don't have a bullseye gun, but I couldn't shoot that good with a laser weapon. :D
 
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I picked the 4-6 inch range. Use to be better, but this is about all I can do now days.
68 year old eyes suck.:(

kimber_tu_50_yards_3.gif
 
I voted 8 to 16 MOA. I can shoot the 2" groups now and then, but I'm most usually in the 3-4" range, with the occasional ~5" group.
 
The NRA Outdoor pistol 50 yard slow fire target has a 10 ring that is about 3.34 inches in diameter. In registered competition that target has been cleaned (perfect score, twenty shots) twice in the .45 course, twice in centerfire, and four times in .22 rimfire. Ever.
Click to expand...
In all fairness, shooting one handed opens my groups up considerably--and I tend to do better in a non-competitive situation where the pressure is a bit lower. I could see that someone shooting two handed, shooting 5 shot groups instead of the longer course of fire required by NRA Outdoor pistol and without the pressure of competition might be able to shoot some groups small enough to raise eyebrows.**

Wish I could--I feel VERY proud when I can get under 3" at 25 yards... :(

**On the other hand, I AM pretty amazed at the number of world class shooters that have answered my poll! :D
 
I've got a 20-shot group here from about 8 yards that measures just a hair over 5 inches from far edge to far edge. That would be 15 inches at 25 yards, roughly. But for 20 rounds..as unfortunately I wasn't shooting 5 rounds groups ;) The tightest 5 (six, actually) measure about 1.5 inches wide..so 4.5 inches at 25 yards seems about reasonable. The very best 3-shot string I think I've ever fired was on an indoor range, at a supposed 52 feet, and it measured about 2.5 inches or so.
 
I was out shooting today before I came across this thread. Messing around with 3 different revolvers.

1. Ruger new Vaquero - .45 colt - 4 5/8" bbl, fixed sights. This gun will average 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inch groups from a rest at 25 yard with preferred ammo. The ammo I was using today -- from a rest ran right at 4" at 25yds -- off hand group at same distance was right at 5 - 6".

2. Old Model Ruger Single Six (David Clemets has done some work on this one). From a rest, this gun/ammo combo will run right at 2" (much better with preferred ammo) just shooting up some bulk Wal Mart stuff. Anyway, offhand group was about 4 " at 25 yards (again, the predictable ones that just get away from me).

3. S&W K22 (Pre Mod 17). With ammo using today, this gun will avg about 1 3/4". Offhand groups running 3" to 3 1/2" - very slow and deliberate. This gun just plain shoots for me. It is extremely accurate, the sight radius/sight picture is very good, and the grip/trigger pull just feel right to me. With that said, at the end of the shooting session (I was getting tired), I was only getting about 70% hits on 8" steel plates at about 40 yards.

With full power handgun stuff -- .357 (J & K Frame), .44 mag, I'm happy if I can consistently get 5" offhand at 25 yards. I'll get some really good 2 to 4 shot groups, but invariably end up pulling one or two.

With the exception of the above ref k22, I've never been able to get a 1" group from any of my handguns -- extremly happy with anything in the 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" range (which are rare). Granted my older eyes don't see as good as they once did. Also, shooting conditions are seldom ideal (light, wind, weather, temp. etc).

I went with the 4 to 6" 25 yard groups.

FWIW,

Paul
 
Ya'all are some lousy shots.........

Most of the gun writers I see in all the magazines can shoot anything but a snubbie sub moa at 25 yds. Heck, they shoot sub moa's with snubbies at 15 yds. (/sarcasm)
 
I HAVE shot a 4.5" group with my Dan Wesson .357 with the 8 inch barrel. That was at a hundred yards using a borrowed Leupold 4x scope. sitting from a bench. I put 4 of the 6 into about 2 - 2 1/2 inches. Then i looked in the spotter and pull the last two. most of the guns I own will clearly shoot better than I can.

Defensive guns: My best, when I am in practice and not affected by caffiene etc, is using a prepped Gov't at 25 yds, I have put 7 under 2 inches, iron sights, two hands, standing up like a human. Have not done that often but can do it once in a while. This gun is one hundred percent reliable with the right ammo, has a bar-sto barrel, great sights, a 3.4# or so trigger, I rarely carry it, but it has gone out on my hip a few times.

My carry .45, now a combat commander, with some of the everyday upgrades, will keep all the shots in a box under a baseball sized hole.

On a bad day, I will quit if I can not shoot smaller than a softball sized hole, fifty rounds. May get one or two fliers in there but really try to keep all shots under a softball.

My daughter is in serious danger of passing me up at 25 and farther, I just do not get the sight picture I once did.
 
Is that standing inside or outside of the barn. :D

I've been shooting close the last few years, 21 feet. With my GP 100 4" & my
H&K USP .45 full size. It is just one ragged hole in the center (more the
firearms than me I'm sure).

Right now, past that.... your guess is as good as mine.
 
I rarely even try to hit a target at 75 feet with a defensive handgun; I'd have to try to explan to a jury why a man 25 yds away was an immediate threat! :scrutiny:

Seriously, for me, 7-10 yards is defensive range (although with the Walther P1 I recently got it does seem to be sighted in at 30 yards).
 
Quote:
"When I can shoot under 4" groups regularly I figure I'll be shooting a lot of 2" groups."
Doesn't seem to work like that for me these days...

I can get a 5 shot group under 4" at 25 yards pretty much any time I try (assuming good ammo/pistol combo and no rush). But 3" seems to be a wall. I get a sub 3" group only once in a very great while and I've only shot a sub 2" group once with a center fire handgun that I can recall.

I don't know if it's my limit or the limit of the guns I shoot. I guess I should try shooting from a rest, but even the idea of shooting a pistol from a rest leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
Click to expand...
I started practical pistol shooting just over a a year and a half ago and I am at that wall also, not much time for bullseye type shooting. 4-5 inch groups and I am happy.

My problem is mostly vertical stringing.

I think I have an inconsistent sight picture with decent trigger control.

My best group came with Winchester SXT 230 45ACP, 1 3/4" unsupported modified weaver. Been chasing after it ever since.
 
Now this isn't any kind of MOA group but it's a lot of fun.
A hundred yards, standing, one hand and two hand rapid fire.
Kel Tec .223 PLR-16 pistol with Red Dot sight.
The idea is to fire several 20 round magazines, using different holds, without missing the BG.
Didn't miss.
Well, OK that's not completely true, I did put 3 warning shots over his shoulder.:D

PLR95Sil.gif
 
Givven the requirement for a
defensive style centerfire handgun/ammo combo
Click to expand...
, perhaps IDPA or USPSA classification might be more relevant? But then, I'm really not sure what you are looking for . . .



Scott
 
Antibubba:
Our safety light (electric company outside light) got damaged in a thunderstorm so our house was dark and not easily seen from the county road. Some kids out joy riding decided to start shooting at rabbits with a spotlight and a .22 and a 12ga one night across the pasture from us not realizing that our house was behind them. I didn't know when they started shooting that they were shooting away from my house so I came outside with the .30-30 and started shooting a few times myself...into the air because I still wasn't sure what was going on.

From the house to the road is about 100 feet, and had they been shooting at our house, I think I'd have been justified in viewing them as an immediate threat. A threat can come at you from further away than you'd think.

No handguns involved but there could have been under different circumstances.

When the kids heard me firing they took off fast. :D
 
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