25 Internet Yards

[BSA1]

Perhaps now is a good time to mention how important the gun and cartridge is as the shooter is only as good as their equipment.

I own a EMF SAA 32-20 with 7 1/2" barrel. The sights are very fine and narrow. The rear sight is a V notch and the front sights gets narrower in height.

One year I shot this gun in all of clubs monthly matches regardless of what other handguns were allowed. So I shot against match tuned .45 1911 and target revolvers. Plus I was at a huge scoring disadvantage with that .311" hole in the paper. All of our matches are shot at 25 yards. The result was I took 2nd place in handgun for the year.

It is a bit of a understatement to say how well I like this gun and ammo combination.

 

[MCgunner]

I shoot silhouette BG targets at 20 feet, 10 yds, and 25 yds. I shoot moving and on uneven ground, from cover, sometimes one handed, some heaters. All my shots are in the torso at 25 yds. I'm happy with that. I hate ranges, so I have my own area on my property with a high bank as a backstop. I don't like to shoot static from a textbook stance (although I do to keep in practice). No telling where you will have to shoot from in self-defense. If you shoot somebody at 25 or 50 yds. who is not shooting at you, you might be in trouble, depending on your state.

Handgun shooting ain't always about self defense. I thought we'd established that. I don't hunt deer by running through the trees running and gunning, after all.

 

[Jim Watson]

when i say i can shoot 3'' groups one hand... i can. i need no rest.
people that are skeptical need to try practicing.

i'm not good enow for bulls eye competition yet, but i will be.
__________________
susie,
rimfire person

I think this an unfortunate attitude that I hear a lot of. "I have to practice to get good enough to START shooting in competition."
No, you don't. You just have to show up, be safe, and follow the rules.

Gil Hebard once calculated that if you could hold the black on a standard target, shots distributed at random in the area of the rings, you would score Sharpshooter.
You are holding the 8 ring of a 25 yd slowfire target, the 9 ring of a timed fire target. Plenty good.

You don't have to beat all the men your first day.
You need to start learning to handle match conditions.

 

[ljnowell]

I think this an unfortunate attitude that I hear a lot of. "I have to practice to get good enough to START shooting in competition."

No, you don't. You just have to show up, be safe, and follow the rules.



Gil Hebard once calculated that if you could hold the black on a standard target, shots distributed at random in the area of the rings, you would score Sharpshooter.

You are holding the 8 ring of a 25 yd slowfire target, the 9 ring of a timed fire target. Plenty good.



You don't have to beat all the men your first day.

You need to start learning to handle match conditions.

AMEN!!! I tell people the same thing! I have never heard anyone at a bullseye match belittle a shooters scores(unless it's in jest between friends). Quite the opposite. When shooters spot someone trying to get better they usually do everything they can to help.

 

[MrBorland]

I am not a gifted shooter and a very poor athlete...However, shooting is the one sport I've tried that has not made me immediately feel at a disadvantage from the start. My eyes are good and I can operate a firearm. How refreshing and inclusive.

You're in good company - being a very poor athlete is precisely how Lanny Bassham got into shooting, and he ended up an olympic gold medalist.

As far as being gifted, as others have noted here, talent is hugely overrated, and, frankly, too often used as a crutch, IMO.

Yes, perhaps some are talented, and it takes talent (and lots of hard work) to get to the highest levels of competition, but the average Joe can certainly achieve remarkable skill so long as they practice and not undermine their own efforts by convincing themselves that they're not one of the lucky ones with talent.

 

[george burns]

Given an unlimited amount of time, "using 10seconds or more between shots, I can still put them in a 2 " group at 50 feet, with a laser I can do it at 25 yards. My eyes are what's holding me back at 67. If I could actually see the target clearly I can still put them where I want to. But lately I have 2 friends that had major problems with Lasix, "which was going to be my saving grace", and now I am not sure if I want to take the chance.
Both used doctors who were top rated in my area, and both required more surgery.Also assuming that many people don't know the difference between Feet, Meters and yards, I would guess that they think that they are shooting 25 yards when really it's 25 feet.
That first line in many gun ranges is 21 or 25 feet. The rear wall is 25 yards. That's the one you can barely see, without a light and a laser in my range.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Perhaps now is a good time to mention how important the gun and cartridge is as the shooter is only as good as their equipment.

I own a EMF SAA 32-20 with 7 1/2" barrel. The sights are very fine and narrow. The rear sight is a V notch and the front sights gets narrower in height.

One year I shot this gun in all of clubs monthly matches regardless of what other handguns were allowed. So I shot against match tuned .45 1911 and target revolvers. Plus I was at a huge scoring disadvantage with that .311" hole in the paper. All of our matches are shot at 25 yards. The result was I took 2nd place in handgun for the year.

It is a bit of a understatement to say how well I like this gun and ammo combination.

This is a good point, but in my own (admittedly limited) experience, my handguns can all shoot better than I can.

Occasionally, I do my job right and can make fairly accurate shots.

I did a video of hitting a frying pan at 240 yards. I was standing, two handed. (for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgNxPvg8-yY)

The guns are capable. We just gotta do our part!

 

[LiveLife]

25 Internet Yards

Allow me to preface with the fact that I know that some people actually shoot at 25 yards and do quite well.

However, I see in thread after thread where the guy with the new handgun shoots a 2" inch group at 25 yards. I don't know about the majority here, but at 25 yards, my front post is about the same size as the entire silhouette target. In fact, my (I'm a member there) state-of-the-art range goes to 45' in the pistol bay and 75' in the rifle. So 25 yards? Really? Or does one really mean 25 FEET?

Personally, unless I'm playing some sort of game with myself, I'm shooting at 21'.

Again, talking about unscoped handguns. And I acknowledge that a percentage of great shooters can group offhand at 25 yards. What say you THR? Do we call shenanigans?

Indoor ranges I shot at have 25 yard lanes.

When I do load development and accuracy range tests, I initially test loads at 7-10 yards for reliable slide cycling/spent case extraction/ejection then retest more accurate loads at 15 yards. Accuracy benchmark at 15 yards is around 1"-1.5" for me.

Once most accurate loads are determined at 15 yards, I test them at 25 yards to see how they perform.

Range tests are done on factory stock Sig 1911 XO and Glock 22 with factory and KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels.

On the Handloading and Reloading category, most of my 9mm/40S&W/45ACP load development steps are fully documented and linked on this post (just FYI, I have over 400,000 rounds of trigger time the past 20+ years) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

9mm 124 gr Berry's regular plated RN (solid base) with 3.8/4.0 gr Titegroup @ 1.160" (25 yards)

9mm 124 gr RMR HM RN with 5.2 gr of BE-86 @ 1.160" (25 yards)

40S&W 180 gr RMR HM RNFP with 6.1 gr of Herco/BE-86 @ 1.155"

45ACP MBC 12 BHN 200 gr SWC with 4.0 gr Promo @ 1.240"

To verify accuracy testing in person, I even had another THR member witness the actual range test (this was the smallest shot group from range session) and meet the range staff who witnessed my other range tests - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9646469#post9646469

As to internet myths, can I get 2" groups at 25 yards on every range session?

No.

I have good days and bad days and often 3"-4" is the best I can do. I am not a bullseye match shooter as I shot USPSA matches and utmost accuracy from 25-50 yard slow fire was not my focus (but it was for my shooting/reloading mentor who shot bullseye matches). Rather, fast double taps at 7-15 yards was my focus.

Sometimes, I see the dismay of shooters who can't group with their new pistols. When they see my smaller shot groups, they wonder if they bought the wrong pistols. I tell them they simply need to practice more with their pistols and when I produce small shot groups with their pistols, they smile and say they will practice more.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Are tight groups possible at 25 yards? Sure. Are they nearly as common as the internet will tell you? Of course not. And honestly, the people that do it, aren't the ones post pictures of their targets.

I took an advanced defensive pistol course a couple of years ago from a fine gentleman who now runs a custom precision rifle shop outside of Houston. As part of that course, we were hitting eight inch steel targets at 100 yards with service grade and CCW type guns. Not because shooting pistols at 100 yards is super uber tacticool, but to reinforce in the shooter that the gun will outperform the shooter. So yeah, if a group of guys can repeatedly ring the going at 100 yards, then in theory 1/4 the size at 1/4 the distance is a doable thing too. Of course, in order to even get in that class there were a lot of experience pre-reqs, so it wasn't just a bunch of guys who just bought their first gun at Academy Sports and went to the range.

Bu, on the other side of the coin.. with time I find myself becoming more and more cynical towards peoples claims of shooting ability unless I've seen it myself. A couple of years ago, Texas changed (actually finally read the law) how CHL instructors are certified and started requiring them to have an outside certification in order to be a CHL instructor. NRA TCs were suddenly flooded with hundreds and hundreds of CHL instructors needing to be certified as pistol instructors. At the time I was excited because it meant classes full of qualified, professional people who know what they are talking about. What I learned is that CHL instructors can't shoot. Not all of them, just a very significant chunk of them. The drill is 20 rounds, 8 inch scoring ring, 15 yards, slow fire, standing two handed. We give them 15 minutes to complete this drill. Just as an example, of the eight candidates went took through class this weekend, 3 could not complete that exercise. And that's pretty typical.

So yeah, these days when someone is regaling me with stories of their expert pistol marksmanship, I don't want to call them a liar because it just might be true (been there, done that, got the bug bites to prove it), but I know we will see the truth come practical exercise time. You can't hide your score on the range.

 

[jlr1962]

Most people's wingspan is about equal to their height. I am 6'6" and have longer than average arms, so yeah, my hand is closer to the dart board than most folks'. My shooting buddy is my FiL and he is 6'8", so people do notice us at the range.

One thing to keep in mind: if you have never shot a handgun with an extra-long barrel, it gives you a sight-picture advantage that is just ridiculous, especially with nice big sights. My FiL has a Ruger MkII target model with a long barrel, maybe 6.5", not 100% sure, and he can shoot absurdly well with it. If my Blackhawk had. 5" barrel instead of 7.5", I wouldn't be hitting things with it nearly as well at longer ranges. I can only imagine what a Contender would be like.

My next purchase is still undecided. I was thinking a S&W 686+ with a 4" barrel. I would not be opposed to a 6" barrel. They have both available for rent at one of the ranges that I use. They had the same guns for sale as well, but they were $980.00. No credit for rental applied to gun prices there. That is $180.00 more than Cabelas. Academy had the 686+ for $750.00 last I checked. Having to buy their range priced ammo is required for rental. Total would be about $60.00. I could do that. Several other people told me the 2" longer barrel makes a difference.

 

[Tallball]

yeah, 6" is easier than 4". If you put them in a vice it probably wouldn't matter. But I is way easier to get an accurate sight picture with a longer barrel.

 

[bc1023]

I shoot 25 yards all the time.

For instance, this was shot with my CZ 75 Champion. Its a 5-shot group measuring 2 3/8", with four shots into 3/4". Unfortunately, I suffered a flyer...

 

[murf]

i don't practice enough, but here's the first five shots out of my kimber done yesterday morning:

i got lucky. i had a clear sight picture and only two cups of coffee that morning!
was checking out the new kart barrel. the gun seems to shoot pretty good, much better than the nut behind the trigger.

murf

 

[coloradokevin]

Allow me to preface with the fact that I know that some people actually shoot at 25 yards and do quite well.

However, I see in thread after thread where the guy with the new handgun shoots a 2" inch group at 25 yards. I don't know about the majority here, but at 25 yards, my front post is about the same size as the entire silhouette target. In fact, my (I'm a member there) state-of-the-art range goes to 45' in the pistol bay and 75' in the rifle. So 25 yards? Really? Or does one really mean 25 FEET?

Personally, unless I'm playing some sort of game with myself, I'm shooting at 21'.

Again, talking about unscoped handguns. And I acknowledge that a percentage of great shooters can group offhand at 25 yards. What say you THR? Do we call shenanigans?

The only time I shoot indoors is at work when I'm qualifying, and those qualifications run from 0-25 yards.

When I'm shooting on my own time with a pistol I'm often shooting between 25 and 100 yards. I have no really interest in bullseye style shooting with my pistols. My pistols are defensive weapons, and I practice on targets that represent those training goals (IPSC targets, and steel plates between about 6 and 12" in size). I'm not looking for 2" groups at 25 yards as much as I'm looking for quick shots that will be accurate enough to land a COM or CNS shot on a man-sized targets at those distances. A number of those have certainly been 2" groups, and others have been larger groups… no matter how good you are accuracy will decrease as speed increases.

But, even with a stock pistol with factory sights it isn't hard to land shots on an IPSC-sized steel target at 25, 50, and even 100 yards (with practice, of course). For a skilled handgunner I don't think 2" groups at 25 yards is unreasonable. But, in many cases we need to define what a "group" really is. Are we talking about 3 shots within 2 inches, or 20 shots? That certainly makes a difference, too.

 

[susieqz]

this thing about not knowing what 25 yards is?
well, guys, i used a tape measure to set up my range.
it's 25 yards on the nose.
my groups are small because i shoot every day.
now, 50 yards, that's hard, even using 2 hands, but 2 hands is sissy.
besides i'm cuter shooting duelist.

 

[murf]

that "practice" thing always seems to keep popping up here. apparently, a common theme among all good shooters regardless their venue.

murf

 

[roval]

I don't shoot for groups much at 25 yards since my groups are not that great but shooting the head( my head is actually larger) of my big dog steel target is fairly easy and I shoot my dueling tree with 6 inch plates at 25 yrds. The closest we can use steel targets. Before I bought it I did buy a 6 inch gong to practice with first to see if I could do it consistently before plunking down the cash for the tree. I do have a couple of guns I have trouble with at that distance.

Last time I was out with it I had a fun challenge with one of the range masters . It was fun but my accuracy went down. Ended up being a draw we ran out of bulets. We had to clear our side. Do a reload even if you have a lot of bullets in your magazine's and then shoot oNE of the plates of your opponent before the challenger can flip another plate. ( he over complicated it).

 

[susieqz]

300 rounds/week, every week for 6 months = 2'' groups at 25 yards.
period.
i just can't believe the people here who think it can't be done.

 

[murf]

this is depressing. i think i'll go on youtube and watch a jerry miculek video!

murf

 

[LiveLife]

Maybe this will cheer you up. This shooter is hitting targets at 100 yards with pistol sights removed (more videos at link) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9866378#post9866378

[YOUTUBE]sjil10f6LeI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[sarduy]

Allow me to preface with the fact that I know that some people actually shoot at 25 yards and do quite well.

However, I see in thread after thread where the guy with the new handgun shoots a 2" inch group at 25 yards. I don't know about the majority here, but at 25 yards, my front post is about the same size as the entire silhouette target. In fact, my (I'm a member there) state-of-the-art range goes to 45' in the pistol bay and 75' in the rifle. So 25 yards? Really? Or does one really mean 25 FEET?

Personally, unless I'm playing some sort of game with myself, I'm shooting at 21'.

Again, talking about unscoped handguns. And I acknowledge that a percentage of great shooters can group offhand at 25 yards. What say you THR? Do we call shenanigans?

i'll be going to the range tomorrow, i'll show you my targets

 

[Caliper_Mi]

at 25 yards, my front post is about the same size as the entire silhouette target.

You seem to be working off the common misconception that you can't shoot a group smaller than the size of your front sight. On my AR-15, I found that switching from the skinny Nat'l Match front sight to a standard width one helped me shoot better because I could focus on it better. At 100yd, the front sight on that rifle is the width of a sheet of paper, yet I can shoot a 1" group without too much trouble.

Handguns are much the same way. If your front sight is the same width as the target, that can give you a very clear sight picture and lead to good accuracy. Take a look at NRA Handgun Silhouette. They are shooting steel targets out to 100 or 200 yards. Many use scopes, but there are iron sight classes as well. It's a lot of fun.

 

[buck460XVR]

I don't know about the majority here, but at 25 yards, my front post is about the same size as the entire silhouette target.

That's why most of us use the "6 O'Clock" sight picture. But as I said in my first post, human nature is to embellish, ask any fisherman about the one that got away. That said, I generally never practice at 25 yards except for my CWC firearms. All of my revolvers and 1911s get shot at 40 or more. Generally 70 yards for the hunting revolvers with open sights. Other than when developing a load or in the case of a new gun, I seldom shoot at paper bullseyes, preferring reactive targets like bowling pins, or steel gongs. Paper gets real old for me, real fast. Like any sport, folks with superior natural eye/hand coordination will have an easier time. Folks with good eyesight will do better than folks with poor eyes. It doesn't really matter if you shoot better than eveyone else, it just matters that you shoot the best to your abilities and are proficient enough for the task at hand.

 

[jlr1962]

300 rounds/week, every week for 6 months = 2'' groups at 25 yards.
period.
i just can't believe the people here who think it can't be done.

At the risk of being banned from yet another forum.....
I have attempted to meet with several people claiming to shoot rifles, or handguns who have made claims on many gun forums, job sites, co-workers. Not one has shown up from any forum. A couple of co-workers have shown up. They were "off" that day for some reason.
The NRA competitive shooters seem to stay away from these forums for some reason.

BTW, I am sure that some people can actually shoot as well as they claim.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I agree caliper. I find a too skinny front sight a pain. I did really well this past weekend at 100 with a scoped 22 pistol (posted elsewhere.) For now I will just call it luck until I can repeat. What I did find was too big of a target and too small played a role. Also I needed a (+) cross pattern on the target at 100 for my best shooting as my crosshairs felt really thick at that distance. In summary, the small things really play a big role between a 1" or 2" repeatable group.