25 Internet Yards

[jlr1962]

I shoot 25 yards all the time.

For instance, this was shot with my CZ 75 Champion. Its a 5-shot group measuring 2 3/8", with four shots into 3/4". Unfortunately, I suffered a flyer...

.40 Champion right???

 

[Nathan Detroit]

It might not hurt to remind you that some folks talk about the best group they have ever shot as being representative of their ability.

 

[guyfromohio]

True.... I've never shot a group and said "my, this is exceptionally average, I think I shall photograph it".

 

[MrBorland]

I have attempted to meet with several people claiming to shoot rifles, or handguns who have made claims on many gun forums, job sites, co-workers. Not one has shown up from any forum. A couple of co-workers have shown up. They were "off" that day for some reason.

And, if I may ask, what risk are you yourself accepting in doing so? Do you give them your most expensive gun if they do deliver, for instance? Would you be as willing to challenge people if it involved some risk on your part?

The NRA competitive shooters seem to stay away from these forums for some reason.

BTW, I am sure that some people can actually shoot as well as they claim.

There are plenty of competitive shooters here, and some are very excellent. They often keep a low profile, though.

Competitive shooters will often also join competition-specific forums, but the discussions there are generally match chat, tips for improvement, questions about gear, etc. There are few, if any silly "here's how small a group I can shoot - what can you do?" or "my gun is better than yours" types of threads. In the end, match performance is all that matters there.

 

[MCgunner]

This thread has gotten me to wanting a more accurate .22. I have a Mk 2, but it's got a scope on it that I don't wanna take off. Now, I'm not going to buy a Smith M41 or something crazy expensive, but I've always thought I'd like to add a Buckmark to my collection.

Any experience Bullseye shooters give me input on an affordable ACCURATE .22? Would the Buckmark suit me or do I need to get another Ruger for the aftermarket goodies I can get for it eventually if I were to get serious?

This thread inspired me to go shoot my scoped Mk 2 yesterday bullseye style. I would do real good if I stopped and rested, but that gun/scope got heavy trying to shoot 10 rounds consecutively. Scopes are cheating, I know, but it's my most accurate .22 not including my scoped TC 10" barrel.

 

[guyfromohio]

I've enjoyed the discussion. Thank you all. To those that actually do shoot these groups at 25 yards and greater, I have the utmost respect and did not intend for you to have to go on the defensive. For those who readily admit their skill levels, keep enjoying the sport.

 

[jlr1962]

And, if I may ask, what risk are you yourself accepting in doing so? Do you give them your most expensive gun if they do deliver, for instance? Would you be as willing to challenge people if it involved some risk on your part?




There are plenty of competitive shooters here, and some are very excellent. They often keep a low profile, though.

Competitive shooters will often also join competition-specific forums, but the discussions there are generally match chat, tips for improvement, questions about gear, etc. There are few, if any silly "here's how small a group I can shoot - what can you do?" or "my gun is better than yours" types of threads. In the end, match performance is all that matters there.

I got booted for stirring the pot and gambling, or so I was told. You are right though. No real risk on my part. I am not going to gamble with somebody until see them shoot. Kind of like the old days when we could drag race locally without being interrupted. You didn't heads up race somebody out of your league.

Do you believe every post you see as far as "I shot this at X distance"?

I have seen a couple of truly amazing rifle shooters. When they say they can hit at distance, I don't doubt it. Their POA/POI is under 1/4 MOA on every shot. Not mine I must say.

 

[jlr1962]

This thread has gotten me to wanting a more accurate .22. I have a Mk 2, but it's got a scope on it that I don't wanna take off. Now, I'm not going to buy a Smith M41 or something crazy expensive, but I've always thought I'd like to add a Buckmark to my collection.

Any experience Bullseye shooters give me input on an affordable ACCURATE .22? Would the Buckmark suit me or do I need to get another Ruger for the aftermarket goodies I can get for it eventually if I were to get serious?

This thread inspired me to go shoot my scoped Mk 2 yesterday bullseye style. I would do real good if I stopped and rested, but that gun/scope got heavy trying to shoot 10 rounds consecutively. Scopes are cheating, I know, but it's my most accurate .22 not including my scoped TC 10" barrel.

I hear ya. I have a Buckmark. I shoot it more accurately than any of my other guns. Nothing close to what I see as far as NRA scores. I do think all of those published scores are real BTW.

 

[Pete D.]

Targets

Just as a point of reference - the NRA 25 yard slow fire Bullseye match target has 10 ring that is 1.51" diameter the X ring is less than 3/4". The national record indoors for 20 shots fired one hand unsupported is 199- 12X.
Outdoors the 50 yard slow fire 10 ring is 3.36" diameter - the record is 200 -11x.

 

[ljnowell]

At the risk of being banned from yet another forum.....

I have attempted to meet with several people claiming to shoot rifles, or handguns who have made claims on many gun forums, job sites, co-workers. Not one has shown up from any forum. A couple of co-workers have shown up. They were "off" that day for some reason.

The NRA competitive shooters seem to stay away from these forums for some reason.



BTW, I am sure that some people can actually shoot as well as they claim.

I'm a serious competitor. You can go to the competition forums and see many of my posts. I post here regularly.

Good groups at 25 simply take lots of practice. In 38 special I shoot 10-15k per year. Almost the sane amount of 45 ACP, and about half as much 22lr.

That's what it takes to shoot good at 50 & 25 yards.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm a serious competitor. You can go to the competition forums and see many of my posts. I post here regularly.

Good groups at 25 simply take lots of practice. In 38 special I shoot 10-15k per year. Almost the sane amount of 45 ACP, and about half as much 22lr.

That's what it takes to shoot good at 50 & 25 yards.

Well, I'm content with shooting more average, but hey, if you compete and wanna win, you have to burn powder. ANY competition takes lots of practice, IDPA, Bullseye, IHMSA, whatever. I used to burn several hundred rounds of 9x19 a week when I shot IDPA and only made it up to a slow expert before I quit. I had started as a sharpshooter, so improved ONE classification in 3 years of shooting. Oh, well, I ain't Jerry Miculek. Not many are.

My best groups aside, I can keep 10 rounds under 4" at 25 yards. I can shrink that by an inch with an accurate .22 and practice, though. But, shooting one handed bullseye style is tough, real tough. My best groups were shot isosceles IIRC, which is cheating to a bullseye shooter.

 

[MrBorland]

Do you believe every post you see as far as "I shot this at X distance"?

Instances of outright & blatant BS are relatively rare, IMO. I know what "good" shooting is, and know it's achievable with practice (just re-read SuzieQZ's posts as examples). Most claims don't even fall into this category, while some do, and even fewer are exceptionally good.

I also note that when folks post a good target, it's generally been shot with a gun that's up to the task.

I also accept that when folks post a target, they're posting a particularly good target, and not generally claiming to be able to do this every time. Heck, I do that myself.

Most peoples' claims that seem to raise eyebrows, then, are still reasonably within the "good" range, shot with reasonable gear, and they make no claim the target's typical. So, while I haven't believed every claim, it's relatively rare that I have reason to call outright BS.

 

[LiveLife]

It might not hurt to remind you that some folks talk about the best group they have ever shot as being representative of their ability.

True.... I've never shot a group and said "my, this is exceptionally average, I think I shall photograph it".

Yes, we often see pictures of shot groups posted disclosed as "best or smallest" shot groups fired and not the average or typical.

For this reason, some of my load development threads post all the shot groups shot as loads are incrementally range tested to show the progression of accuracy trends.

I think showing the progression of shot group size decrease (or increase) adds more credibility to the "best or smallest" shot groups obtained instead of simply posting the smallest shot groups when readers are able to follow how the loads were developed illustrated by consecutive shot group pictures.

I've enjoyed the discussion. Thank you all. To those that actually do shoot these groups at 25 yards and greater, I have the utmost respect and did not intend for you to have to go on the defensive. For those who readily admit their skill levels, keep enjoying the sport.

In the past 20+ years, I have competed with and shot with shooters who absolutely left me speechless. Compared to them, what I can barely do at 25 yards they can do at 50 yards. Unfortunately, many of them don't read online forums and will never post on online forums to share their processes and techniques.

While many talk about 25 yard accuracy, many of us on the Handloading and Reloading category, especially bullseye match shooters, don't talk but do it on a regular basis, and also to share our processes and techniques with future generation of shooters and reloaders.

 

[LiveLife]

I also note that when folks post a good target, it's generally been shot with a gun that's up to the task.

Also good ammunition matched to the pistol.

There's a limit to what you can do with factory ammunition, especially with cheaper white box/value pack. And certain pistols simply shoot better with particular ammunition.

When some friends/family members can't seem to group well with factory ammunition and question the accuracy of their new pistols, I verify the accuracy with my reference/known accurate loads. When nickel/quarter size shot groups are produced at same distances they were shooting, they realize the accuracy issue was not due to the pistol or the shooter but the ammunition they were using.

I initially shot factory ammunition for USPSA matches and used the most accurate factory loads from several different brands (you would not believe the large spread I got with some factory ammunition). When other shooters suggested I reload to further decrease the shot groups, I started reloading and my shot groups decreased by more than 40% compared to the most accurate factory loads.

As to pistols, I intentionally keep my range test pistols factory stock. When I got small shot groups with M&P45 with a trigger job I performed myself, many THR members posted that their M&P45 would never shoot as small groups because they could not duplicate the trigger job I did on my pistol. So when I got the Sig 1911 XO to replace the M&P45 as the range pistol, I left it stock other than replacing recoil springs. For 9mm/40S&W testing, I use factory stock Glock 20/23/27 with KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels. Due to most of the pistols having shot many tens of thousands of rounds, trigger contact surfaces undoubtedly have been smoothed but nonetheless they are stock pistols with stock triggers.

I have Just Right carbine with conversions for 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP. I plan to duplicate my range testing at 25 and now at 50 yards using the same loads hopefully with less shooter factor as shot groups will be shot with the aid of optics and bipod instead of my eyes and sandbags. Although I am a fan of "real world" groups shot off hand fast (double taps), for objective testing for H&R category to conduct comparative testing of different powders, less human factor would be better.

 

[MrBorland]

I have seen a couple of truly amazing rifle shooters. When they say they can hit at distance, I don't doubt it. Their POA/POI is under 1/4 MOA on every shot.

Let's be clear here - did they actually claim they shoot 1/4 MOA every time? Or are you saying (and assuming) that because you saw them shoot once?

It's relevant since if someone's going to get worked up over claims a shooter supposedly did or didn't make, they need to be clear whether the shooter in question actually made the claim or not. It's only fair.

 

[jlr1962]

Let's be clear here - did they actually claim they shoot 1/4 MOA every time? Or are you saying (and assuming) that because you saw them shoot once?

It's relevant since if someone's going to get worked up over claims a shooter supposedly did or didn't make, they need to be clear whether the shooter in question actually made the claim or not. It's only fair.

The man shoots at 1" target dots at 100 yards. I have never seen the man land a single shot outside of the target dot after fouling shots are fired. Never.

Take post #151, do you think that was shot with a CZ 75 Champion or even a CZ 75? Look closely.
The Champion was a .40, other 75's are typically are what, 9mm?

I copied the pic in the event it disappears.

 

[Nathan Detroit]

This thread has gotten me to wanting a more accurate .22. I have a Mk 2, but it's got a scope on it that I don't wanna take off. Now, I'm not going to buy a Smith M41 or something crazy expensive, but I've always thought I'd like to add a Buckmark to my collection.

Any experience Bullseye shooters give me input on an affordable ACCURATE .22? Would the Buckmark suit me or do I need to get another Ruger for the aftermarket goodies I can get for it eventually if I were to get serious?

This thread inspired me to go shoot my scoped Mk 2 yesterday bullseye style. I would do real good if I stopped and rested, but that gun/scope got heavy trying to shoot 10 rounds consecutively. Scopes are cheating, I know, but it's my most accurate .22 not including my scoped TC 10" barrel.

Don't underestimate your Mk2. When I was actively shooting conventional bullseye, I shot any number of 285+ scores and even a few 290+ scores with one. Find ammo it likes and get a good trigger job done on it. They are surprisingly accurate guns.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The Champion was a .40...

Not all of them.

...And now you are treading down an awfully odd path.

 

[MrBorland]

The man shoots at 1" target dots at 100 yards. I have never seen the man land a single shot outside of the target dot after fouling shots are fired. Never.

ok, so the guy's a consistent .7 - 1.0 MOA shooter. Admirable. So where'd the 1/4MOA come from? Did the shooter ever make any claim to being a 1/4MOA shooter?

Take post #151, do you think that was shot with a CZ 75 Champion or even a CZ 75? Look closely.
The Champion was a .40, other 75's are typically are what, 9mm?

And your point is what? The shooter really shot the group with a .40S&W, so the group is really bigger than it appears? You're really stretching. If even so, it goes from about 2.5" to 3". You can tie yourself in knots over what round was really used, but it's still within the reasonable range of "good".

 

[jlr1962]

ok, so the guy's a consistent .7 - 1.0 MOA shooter. Admirable. So where'd the 1/4MOA come from? Did the shooter ever make any claim to being a 1/4MOA shooter?






And your point is what? The shooter really shot the group with a .40S&W, so the group is really bigger than it appears? You're really stretching. If even so, it goes from about 2.5" to 3". You can tie yourself in knots over what round was really used, but it's still within the reasonable range of "good".

The shooter shoots cloverleafs probably 95% of the time. I don't remember ever seeing a single shot outside of the 1" ring. High end rifle and scope. Surgeon/Nightforce. Way out of my price range.

The target in question is 1/2" grid if the group is two and three eight's inches. If that is correct, look at the bullet holes. They are about 2/3 the size of one of the 1/2" grid.

 

[MrBorland]

The shooter shoots cloverleafs probably 95% of the time. I don't remember ever seeing a single shot outside of the 1" ring.

Good shooting, but that doesn't make it 1/4MOA, now, does it? Are you embellishing? Are you so sure everyone else embellishes because you yourself are willing to embellish? That'd be ironic.

The target in question is 1/2" grid if the group is two and three eight's inches. If that is correct, look at the bullet holes. They are about 2/3 the size of one of the 1/2" grid.

Lesseee... 2/3 x 1/2"...= 0.34". Awfully close to .356", or 9mm. We still have no idea what your point is, though.

 

[jlr1962]

Good shooting, but that doesn't make it 1/4MOA, now, does it? Are you embellishing? Are you so sure everyone else embellishes because you yourself are willing to embellish? That'd be ironic.



Lesseee... 2/3 x 1/2"...= 0.34". Awfully close to .356", or 9mm. We still have no idea what your point is, though.

I am not talking about my rifle shooting. I am telling you what I see somebody else do. It is remarkable. I see many people shoot moa. Well, not many but some.... OK, a few..... consistently. Some with very inexpensive equipment.

Measure a fresh grease ring from a 308. Look at the target in question. Do you think that target could have been shot with a .40 caliber bullet? (Claimed gun) That type of target has always been a 1/2" grid, from my limited exposure to range targets.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Do you think that target could have been shot with a .40 caliber bullet? (Claimed gun)

In case you missed it before, there are 9mm CZ Champions out there.

 

[MrBorland]

I am telling you what I see somebody else do.

You told us you personally know of a couple 1/4MOA shooters. Now it's one single shooter who consistently hit a 1" 100 yard target. We got it.

 

[jlr1962]

You told us you personally know of a couple 1/4MOA shooters. Now it's one single shooter who consistently hit a 1" 100 yard target. We got it.

Where?