How would you handle this encounter with law enforement?
- Thread starter sherman123
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WTBguns10kOK
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Humans often have multiple things going for them, or multiple things going against them. Your opening comment about being stopped for 2 miles over the limit is a mother of all red flags that the cop is...challenged. You chose the wiser of two paths, though it would have been tempting to make a fool of him. Guess it's time for the camera in your car, eh?
MachIVshooter
Member
Speed limit in contemporary society is really a posted speed that you should travel. It is discourteous to other drivers to travel slower, and actually more dangerous than speeding.
While a police officer *can* stop you for any amount over, it is pretty much standard that up to 5 over is fine. Hence, I tend to agree with:
OP handled the situation fine, and I'd do exactly what he did as far as pursuing a complaint. We don't need billy bad*** with a badge to go unchecked until he really does hurt someone.
Most all cell phones these days have video. There are also all kinds of discreet cameras out there. I wouldn't make an officer aware he's on camera until you feel it's necessary to keep him in line, though..........unless you don't mind getting cited for every tiny violation.
Most cops are perfectly decent people, but dealing with the bad apples can be a real nightmare. Just don't let it get out of hand. Deal with it like the OP, because unless you have a ton of witnesses to corroborate your story, it's your word against his, and that will not be good enough.
Shoobee
member
I guess different people interpret the English language differently.
I interpreted this story as a stipulation that the perp was going over the speed limit.
And that is an infraction for violating the law.
I sympathize with the LEO who pulled over the perp, because I suspect he was pretty upset when he discovered the perp was packing, not having been informed by him, which is common sense and common courtesy to do.
If you have no doubt a police officer is really a police officer, why would you not tell him you are legally packing? I sure would. Why would you keep that a secret?
Go ahead and raise a stink on Monday. I am sure the police brass will put it all to rest.
And THEN they will type something into your permanent online driving record: PERP WAS PACKING AND DID NOT ANNOUNCE ON LAST ARREST -- ASSUME ARMED AND DANGEROUS.
I interpreted this story as a stipulation that the perp was going over the speed limit.
And that is an infraction for violating the law.
I sympathize with the LEO who pulled over the perp, because I suspect he was pretty upset when he discovered the perp was packing, not having been informed by him, which is common sense and common courtesy to do.
If you have no doubt a police officer is really a police officer, why would you not tell him you are legally packing? I sure would. Why would you keep that a secret?
Go ahead and raise a stink on Monday. I am sure the police brass will put it all to rest.
And THEN they will type something into your permanent online driving record: PERP WAS PACKING AND DID NOT ANNOUNCE ON LAST ARREST -- ASSUME ARMED AND DANGEROUS.
First off, I respect the heck out of LEOs. It is a dangerous, thankless job that is full of some of the bravest men and women in the country
BUT, I think anybody in authority that uses phases like "if he had to shoot me it would've been my fault because I didn't inform him I was carrying" is someone that has something a little "off" upstairs. Police sould not use threats on a traffic violation. For the office to even bring up the idea of shooting him shows that it is probably best NOT to inform that you are carrying.
Remember, the legal CCW citizen does not know the mental stability of the officer he encounters. It is common sense to keep aconcealed weapon concealed and I see no reason to bring it up until I feel comfortable with who I am speaking with.
Your view of common sense and common courtesy is (IMHO) flawed by assuming all LEOs are stable enough not to use their position of power to threaten. While the vast majority do not do this, it is obvious form the OP that this police officer is not stable enough. Again no excuse for a officer to even bring up shooting him during a routine traffic violation stop.
Common sense, to me, is getting a feel for someone's mental state before I bring my firearm into conversation. Common courtsey is a 2 way street and one which this officer was not on
SMMAssociates
Member
Officer Harless is now in the process of trying to get his job back.... Unfortunately, the PTB in Canton OH don't seem to have their heads on....
Here in OH, notification is mandatory, IF you're carrying. Many Officers don't know about that part.... Makes for a mess. Not to mention the law saying "promptly" without bothering to define it. 40 seconds? At least one case....
I've known quiet a few Campus LEO's locally (YSU's first Chief was friend of mine, as was his Top Sergeant, and many of his successors, as well as a couple of Officers, one of whom was my Best Man). 'Bout all I can say is that competition to get the jobs isn't quite as stiff.... The Chief also taught LE courses there, and had been YPD's Chief a few years before. (I'm a semi-retired rent-a-cop, among other things. With a few individual exceptions, I have considerable regard/respect for these guys and gals.)
However, any Officer who'd go with 2mph over a limit has some issues....
I would FOIA all material relevant to the stop - video and audio recordings, if any, reports, logs, dispatch logs, etc. And go to his superior immediately. This sort of complaint on his record, if unresolved, can't do the school any good at all if he manages to injure or kill anybody else later on....
If the in-car recording magically disappears, though, I think I'd be talking to my lawyer and the local paper.
All that said, we've only heard one side here. Don't jump to conclusions.
Regards,
Here in OH, notification is mandatory, IF you're carrying. Many Officers don't know about that part.... Makes for a mess. Not to mention the law saying "promptly" without bothering to define it. 40 seconds? At least one case....
I've known quiet a few Campus LEO's locally (YSU's first Chief was friend of mine, as was his Top Sergeant, and many of his successors, as well as a couple of Officers, one of whom was my Best Man). 'Bout all I can say is that competition to get the jobs isn't quite as stiff.... The Chief also taught LE courses there, and had been YPD's Chief a few years before. (I'm a semi-retired rent-a-cop, among other things. With a few individual exceptions, I have considerable regard/respect for these guys and gals.)
However, any Officer who'd go with 2mph over a limit has some issues....
I would FOIA all material relevant to the stop - video and audio recordings, if any, reports, logs, dispatch logs, etc. And go to his superior immediately. This sort of complaint on his record, if unresolved, can't do the school any good at all if he manages to injure or kill anybody else later on....
If the in-car recording magically disappears, though, I think I'd be talking to my lawyer and the local paper.
All that said, we've only heard one side here. Don't jump to conclusions.
Regards,
Really? Do you really do think that way? The 'perp' was 2 miles over the speed limit. You would really write someone up for 2 mph over? I would never pull someone over for 2mph excess as the sole reason for contact.
(Are you certified? What agency did your eval?) As to why he did not inform, he did NOT have to do so by statute! I always assume everyone I deal with on a stop or a call ARE Armed. You really should too. Stops can go pear shaped in a heart beat.
See above "... he did NOT have to do so by statute! "
I fail to see any reason for any annotation. We would have to have a real serious sit-down with someone for putting that crap on the info sheet. Fortunately I work with professionals and this has never been an issue.
As for the use of "Perp". Really??? It was a traffic stop.......:banghead:
Salmoneye
Member
You're making it very difficult not to agree with Espada...
Try actually reading the first post in this thread...
bigfatdave
Member
armoredman, are you assuming that the OP was pulled over by Dan Harless, ot that shoobee is Dan Harless?
I'm confused.
4thPointOfContact
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I would wager that "2mph" over falls within the officially recognized tolerance of error by the state of Kentucky, unless the location was within a school or residential zone.
It always pays to look these things up.
It always pays to look these things up.
lemaymiami
Member
I had a lot of mixed feelings about whether to chime in on this thread - finally decided that I'd talk a bit about what to do after the fact.... As a retired cop, and a former supervisor, then watch commander I've listened to more than a few officer complaints. Some were valid, many were not, quite a few were as much about attitude as anything else. At one point in my career I was actually our agency's internal affairs guy (not a job I'd recommend for anyone...).
On the street any citizen (armed or not) is very smart to "yes sir" and "no sir" the officer involved until their eyes glaze over. This is the exact advice I gave my son when he first began driving about nine years ago. Whatever difficulty you're in isn't going to get better if you talk back, argue, or otherwise point out the officer's failings.....
Now for the serious stuff... The only way any police outfit is going to know about how one of their officers is performing is by actual observation or what they hear from the general public. If the incident is minor (more about attitude than incompetence or actual wrong-doing) and you have some confidence in the supervisor or his/her agency then an informal complaint is in order. Find out who the officer's supervisor is and have a talk with them. It might work wonders or it might be a waste of time - you'll have to be the judge of that... An informal complaint might get recorded and become part of the officer's fitness report (something that's on-going in any competent agency) or it might never be noted anywhere...
If you decide it needs to be dealt with and made a matter of record then file a formal complaint with either the Chief or that agency's internal affairs (I.A. goes by many different names from "professional compliance" on down - or up..). A formal complaint will be taken in writing (and I'd ask for a copy of that initial complaint - or do it in writing and keep a copy for yourself). Many states have laws that require an open internal investigation be kept strictly confidential by all involved (including the complainant) until it's resolved. When the case is resolved I'd expect a written response from that agency outlining what they found and what they did....
Not all cops are in the right line of work and even a good officer can act improperly for one reason or other. If an officer generates complaints that are handled formally... they become part of his/her personnel record and will have a lot to do with whether they have a good career or get denied advancement, special jobs, and ultimately whether they keep their job if something serious occurs. On a solid department complaints result in re-training, closer supervision, and just maybe enough personal growth that a marginal officer becomes better over time. For the bad apples that don't change, formal complaints are how the outfit will eventually terminate the problem child....
Yes, there are departments that don't supervise their officers properly. Yes, there are outfits that encourage their officers to act aggressively (some of the video I've seen in police reality shows just makes me cringe....). Most, though, are very interested in how their cops are actually performing on the street. If you've had a bad encounter - report it and follow through. Whether you do it informally or go the formal route is up to you.
On the street any citizen (armed or not) is very smart to "yes sir" and "no sir" the officer involved until their eyes glaze over. This is the exact advice I gave my son when he first began driving about nine years ago. Whatever difficulty you're in isn't going to get better if you talk back, argue, or otherwise point out the officer's failings.....
Now for the serious stuff... The only way any police outfit is going to know about how one of their officers is performing is by actual observation or what they hear from the general public. If the incident is minor (more about attitude than incompetence or actual wrong-doing) and you have some confidence in the supervisor or his/her agency then an informal complaint is in order. Find out who the officer's supervisor is and have a talk with them. It might work wonders or it might be a waste of time - you'll have to be the judge of that... An informal complaint might get recorded and become part of the officer's fitness report (something that's on-going in any competent agency) or it might never be noted anywhere...
If you decide it needs to be dealt with and made a matter of record then file a formal complaint with either the Chief or that agency's internal affairs (I.A. goes by many different names from "professional compliance" on down - or up..). A formal complaint will be taken in writing (and I'd ask for a copy of that initial complaint - or do it in writing and keep a copy for yourself). Many states have laws that require an open internal investigation be kept strictly confidential by all involved (including the complainant) until it's resolved. When the case is resolved I'd expect a written response from that agency outlining what they found and what they did....
Not all cops are in the right line of work and even a good officer can act improperly for one reason or other. If an officer generates complaints that are handled formally... they become part of his/her personnel record and will have a lot to do with whether they have a good career or get denied advancement, special jobs, and ultimately whether they keep their job if something serious occurs. On a solid department complaints result in re-training, closer supervision, and just maybe enough personal growth that a marginal officer becomes better over time. For the bad apples that don't change, formal complaints are how the outfit will eventually terminate the problem child....
Yes, there are departments that don't supervise their officers properly. Yes, there are outfits that encourage their officers to act aggressively (some of the video I've seen in police reality shows just makes me cringe....). Most, though, are very interested in how their cops are actually performing on the street. If you've had a bad encounter - report it and follow through. Whether you do it informally or go the formal route is up to you.
grasssnake
Member
Sounds like the officer is afraid of concealed carry deadly weapon citizens.
theautobahn
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You have to be trolling because I find it hard to believe that anybody , nevermind one who frequents this site, would seriously think that pulling someone over for 2mph over the posted speed limit was justifiable. A friend is a cop in a town that locally has a reputation for low speeding tolerance, but a conversation with him revealed that in actuality, their chief is way more likely to call them on the floor for giving someone a ticket for 5mph over than letting someone go for 10mph over.
I make it a habit to talk to every police officer I meet about concealed carry and get their opinions. Thus far, without exception, all the cops I've talked to support it. And while they all recommend letting them know that you're legally armed in the course of a traffic stop, not one of them has said "you run the risk of getting shot" if you don't.
Yeah, because every police administrator goes out of their way to provoke lawsuits.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Too much wandering away from the points and questions raised by the OP. Granted, Shoobee's trolling didn't help matters any.
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