Hunters/riflemen JFK head shot ? Stay on topic please.

[Jimmy10mm]

I was 15 on that terrible day when the president was assassinated. I've done searches on TFL and read archived threads already posted on this topic so I'm familiar with all of the "could he have operated the bolt quickly enough" threads and what have you.

My question stems from my reading for years about frangible bullets versus FMJ. The first time I saw the Zapruder film and the still photos showing the damage done to JFK's head I was convinced, and remain so, that it had to be a varmint round that exploded his skull.

I've never been a hunter or a rifleman. My shooting has been considerable but limited to handguns for paper punching and plinking at bottles and cans forty years ago when you still could do it legally.

So please if you reply keep it on topic and if you know from experience with hunting and shooting tell me if a FMJ could have done that or is it more likely to have been a varmint round in the 22 CF class ?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I understand your intent and attempt to keep it narrow focused.

ETA:

OK after some discussion among the Staff this one is open to posting again, being mindful of the OP's original intent and with the understanding that it's a very narrow discussion and avoiding political/legal/tinfoil topics please.

Thanks very much.

 

[TexasRifleman]

And a bump to the top so it's visible.

 

[Cosmoline]

The "magic bullet" performed like a classic 6.5mm high sectional density, moderate velocity round. That is, it remained intact and penetrated a long, long way on an erratic course. It essentially tunneled through the Governor's body as its velocity fell.

The head shot bullet at first glace appears to be more of a varmint round. But only at first glance. When viewed in conjunction with the autopsy photos and frames other than 313 of Zapruder, it's clear that the round did not "detonate" in the style of a .223, but rather blew a chunk of his skull out along with scalp, spraying blood. What you see in 313 is not the "red mist" akin to an exploding gopher, but the bullet essentially scalping him at supersonic speed from inside the skull. Had it hit in a different course, there would not have been such a dramatic wound.



This certainly would have been possible for a 6.5 RN heavy bullet even without any bullet detonation effect. Put another way, the bullet didn't detonate, his skull just flew apart due to the temporary cavity effects of the round moving so close under the skull bones. Like an egg broken from inside by a pressure wave.

 

[loud-mouth shnook]

Hmmm...if the corsican drug dealer who's doing time in Paris (if he's still alive) is correct, then Lucia Sarti's trademark explosive-tip bullet(s) i.e. a .22 blank glued to the middle of a .45 caliber hollowpoint or some such, lends an interseting wrinkle, I should think...

Too bad we'll never know for sure.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Extract from “Differences in the Wounding Behavior of the Two Bullets that Struck President Kennedy; An Experimental Study.” (John K. Lattimer, M.D., Sc.D., Jon K. Lattimer, M.D., et. al., Wound Ballistics Review, 2(2): 1995; 13-37):

…Bullet (No. WC 567-569) which struck the President on the back of the head, broke up because of the hardness of the skull, with the immediate transition into the soft tissues of the brain (Fig 31 & 32).

The greatly increased surface area of the broken bullet and its fragments caused a large temporary cavity to occur in the semi-fluid brain, which, being confined in the cranial vault exploded upward and forward, out the huge wound of exit on the front-right of the skull caused by diverging bullet fragments. Our replications demonstrated this “upward and forward” movement of the skull fragments and brain tissue (Fig. 25).

The lead core and gilding metal jacket separated on contact with the skull, (Fig. 26) leaving a 6.5mm fragment sheared off by the sharp edge of the bone at the point of impact. The entry wound on the inside of the skull showed typical “beveling” of the inner end of the skull wound, where the hole was much larger than that of the outer end of the wound, as is characteristic of wound-of-entrance in bone. The broken bullet scattered dozens of tiny fragments of lead along the track of the bullet from back to front through the brain (Fig 27). Fragments several millimeters in diameter were embedded in the inner surface of the front side of the skull, adjacent to the wound track (Fig 28 AP & LAT). All the fragments of lead removed from the President’s head and found on the floor of the Presidential automobile, matched this bullet and not bullet 399. There were lead fragments from 2 bullets and 2 bullets only, by neutron activation analysis.

A “beveling” of the wound of exit on the front of the skull was also observed and 3 segments of skull could be seen in the Zapruder movie, spiraling upward and forward away from the head, with a cloud of exploding brain substance, immediately after impact, just as in our experimental replications (Fig 25). These flew 40 feet in the air and were recovered from the pavement and infield, later.

Almost the entire right hemisphere of the brain was removed by the bullet (Fig 28 A&B, 29 A&B, 30). This is exactly what our test bullets did when we replicated the skull and brain wounds on our experimental model. Fragmentation of our skull was extensive in every case (Fig 31, 32) with upward and forward ejection of brain material and skull fragments, just as shown in the Zapruder movie in frame 313 and subsequent frames (Fig 25). This difference in reaction after impact on bone, in contrast to the impact on soft tissues was consistent. It happened dependably in our replication (Fig 25).

Backward retro-recoil of the skulls, towards the gun, then occurred in our simulations, just as in JFK’s case….

Photo of recovered bullet that struck JFK's head: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/skull_bullets_lattimer.pdf

JFK autopsy photos and x-rays (caution - graphic): http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html

 

[buck460XVR]

Years ago, sometimes when we butchered a steer and couldn't get in in the yard, or couldn't get close enough to it in the pasture to pluck it in the head with the .22, my grandfather would get out his old M1917 and load it with .30-06 surplus ball ammo(FMJ). He always took them in the head from the side with it so he wouldn't hit meat. Sometimes he hit a tad high and it would take off the top of their skull similar to the pic that Cosmoline posted. No doubt in my mind that a FMJ jacket could do that kind of damage.

 

[Pilot]

I have more issues with the operation of the bolt and accuracy potential of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. I don't know much about this rifle nor the round other than some ballistics I've researched, so maybe someone can clue me in on both the rifle and round's potential.

 

[gun guy]

thats a good general assumption, what you are seeing is the peak tracking effect of a bullet that has gained maximum velocity, after leaving the barrel, each weapon has a unique peak tracking signature, rather like a fingerprint, the head shot in the zapuder film is the peak tracking signature of a .223 at 25 meters. Distance from the corner of the fence, (where badgeman is suppose to be) to the point of impact is actually 26yards, 4 inches. i've measured it. spend awhile with General Hatchers notebook to understand the basics.

 

[gun guy]

further, i aquired 2 carcano's (one within 500 serial numbers of the oswald rifle) when i staged the firing sequence of my jfk recreation. one key issue is the clip. there was never one found, at the scene, so, thats glossed over by saying he hand loaded each round. the problem is, if you actually try that with a carcano, the extractor won't deflect out far enough to allow the bolt to close, the round is designed to move up, under and into the extractor, fed from the clip. you can't, or at least, neither of the weapons i had, and i assume they are all about the same, hand load one round at a time.

 

[benEzra]

I have more issues with the operation of the bolt and accuracy potential of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. I don't know much about this rifle nor the round other than some ballistics I've researched, so maybe someone can clue me in on both the rifle and round's potential.

Youtube video dubunking some myths about the Carcano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOQ2oebB2M&feature=related

Also, consider that the range was essentially point-blank for a centerfire rifle, even a 4 MOA one (around 35 yards for the first shot and 88 yards for the third, if I remember correctly). Could you conceivably hit a balloon once out of 3 shots, between 35 and 90 yards, using a rifle and 4x scope from a benchrest, if the balloon were moving straight away from you at the speed of a sedate bicycle? Thought so...

thats a good general assumption, what you are seeing is the peak tracking effect of a bullet that has gained maximum velocity, after leaving the barrel, each weapon has a unique peak tracking signature, rather like a fingerprint, the head shot in the zapuder film is the peak tracking signature of a .223 at 25 meters.

By the time the bullet is an inch or two out of the muzzle, it's going as fast as it's going to go. It's deceleration all the way as soon as the pressure behind it falls off.

The wound is not consistent with a .223 at 25 meters, unless the shooter was invisibly hovering in the air behind the limousine, IMO.

 

[gun guy]

i know, last paragraph, my report was over 400 pages, there are 26 volumes of evidence, that go along with the warren report, i have read them all. intermixed is 1. the round that missed, hit the concrete, injured james tauge.(unknown caliber) 2 the round that struck the upper chrome piece of the limo, broke in half, and was recovered by the mechanics that repaired/sanitized the limo afterwards.(it was 6.5 carcano) 3 the entrance wound in jfk's neck(or the back wound if you wish). 4 the head shot (we already have 4 rounds, oops) 5 the magic bullet if you wish, that got both kennedy & connley, or, in connelys words, i heard a shot, turned saw jfk was hit (he is still holding his hat) then, a shot hit me. he was a pretty close eye witness. that would make 6 shots if connely is to be considered credible. if you wish to discuss any of this in depth, feel free to email me: [email protected]

 

[Millwright]

In the intervening 4+ decades I've read tens of thousand of words of explanation/contravention regarding the JFK assination. If there were multiple shooters, I've not encountered any credible evidence thereof. Perhaps they were poor shots.

I, like many of that era, have shot the Carcano carbine. Judging by the example I fired it was an adequate - if not spectacular - military weapon. It certainly had a long service life and the bullet was obviously deemed sufficiently accurate and lethal for its intended purpose by the Italian military. My shooting of the example in hand at multiple targets using military issue ammo didn't reveal anything to contravene that analysis.

Sniper weapons don't have to be sub-MOA gems. They just have to 'do the job required'. I've no doubt the Carcano platform and its ammo can can accomplish what decades of forensics have pretty well defined at the range the event occurred. The only 'variable' is the shooter. And Oswald, (or someone), had the ability to make the second "shots heard 'round the world".

Is an axion of history at crucial intersections of events extraordinary things happen. Experienced captains issue reckless orders, experienced mates forget how to operate vital equipment, assassins miss point blank lethal shots, or make extraordinary lethal ones. Go figure !! But don't look for definity ! >MW

 

[Aaron Baker]

And here we go off topic into the conspiracy theories. They didn't find a clip! Oh no!

Unless you already buy into the other conspiracy theories, there were three shots fired. The Carcano is a 6-shot rifle. Why does there need to be a clip on the floor to be found?

Jeez.

Aaron

 

[gun guy]

Quote:By the time the bullet is an inch or two out of the muzzle, it's going as fast as it's going to go. It's deceleration all the way as soon as the pressure behind it falls off.

this is a gross simplification taught to school children by teacher with no range time, it simply isnt true. again, read General Hatchters notebook, do the math on ranging artillery, scale it down to small arms to understand how, and why a bullet gains speed noticably after leaving the muzzle, and how each caliber has a given distance at which it reaches max V.

 

[Tim the student]

FMJ will do a number on a head, no doubt about it. I know this.

I don't know, but I bet with a relatively small amount of practice, one can work a bolt, acquire a good sight picture, and take a decently aimed shot that fast. (I guess I need to get my bolt gun out and find out, huh?)

 

[Joe Demko]

I had a Carcano like the one used in the assassination, though with no scope. It was a nice, handy rifle and compared favorably in workmanship and accuracy with the other surplus rifles I was accumulating at the time. Of course, this was the very early '80s. The iron curtain had not fallen and we had not entered the golden age of surplus arms and ammo that was the '90s. Nor were there suddenly privatized Eastern European factories turning out inexpensive ammo in a million different cartridges. The only readily available source of ammo at the time was Norma and it cost as much per box as the rifle itself had; and that still left one with the issue of clips. It was so expensive to shoot that I eventually traded/sold it to a guy who had to have it specifically because it was a Kennedy Killer Carcano. Anyone who thinks the gun or the cartridge wasn't up to the job is mistaken.

 

[Sport45]

this is a gross simplification taught to school children by teacher with no range time, it simply isnt true. again, read General Hatchters notebook, do the math on ranging artillery, scale it down to small arms to understand how, and why a bullet gains speed noticably after leaving the muzzle, and how each caliber has a given distance at which it reaches max V.

By what means is the bullet accelerated AFTER leaving the muzzle??? I can see the pressure pushing it a bit in the absence of barrel friction for maybe a few millimeters beyond the muzzle, but that's about it.

 

[benEzra]

Quote:By the time the bullet is an inch or two out of the muzzle, it's going as fast as it's going to go. It's deceleration all the way as soon as the pressure behind it falls off.

this is a gross simplification taught to school children by teacher with no range time, it simply isnt true. again, read General Hatchters notebook, do the math on ranging artillery, scale it down to small arms to understand how, and why a bullet gains speed noticably after leaving the muzzle, and how each caliber has a given distance at which it reaches max V.

That distance is always within a few inches of the muzzle; the supersonic gas flow exiting the barrel behind the bullet loses coherence and devolves into turbulent flow within inches.


That's a Schlieren photo of a high-powered bolt action. Note that the bullet is already far ahead of the gases exiting the muzzle, in clear air, and is leaving even the sound waves behind; all you see are the Mach waves created by the bullet's motion and the turbulent flow field behind the bullet.


Schlieren photo of an intermediate caliber (7.62x39mm in this case); same thing, except this round produces less gas.

I'm not sure which Hatcher formula you are thinking of, but I know he does include a formula for adding velocity to that measured by a chronograph. This is merely a means to compensate for the deficiencies of the chronographs of his time, though, and he makes it clear that the max velocity is at the muzzle:

Hatcher's Notebook, p. 404, under "The Relation Between Muzzle Velocity and Instrumental Velocity":

http://books.google.com/books?id=yE...&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

For velocities in the order of those obtained with the service ammunition it has been found with standard atmospheric density conditions the speed drops off at the rate of .64 foot per second for every foot from the muzzle to the mid point between [chronograph] screens.

In Hatcher's time, the only ballistic chronographs available required the screens to be very far apart (like 150 feet), so the average velocity between screens was going to measure lower than the actual velocity at the muzzle (because the bullet is slowing down), hence the formula. But this is just to compensate for the large distance between screens; a modern chronograph with its much shorter screen distance (a couple of feet) will measure the highest velocity right after muzzle exit, and the velocity decreases the further out the bullet gets.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

In a few years the real report is going to be fully declassified so why don't we just sit back, wait and see what it says?

 

[russ69]

thats a good general assumption, what you are seeing is the peak tracking effect of a bullet that has gained maximum velocity, after leaving the barrel,

Without a force to keep the bullet accelerating the bullet cannot gain speed once past the muzzle.

Thanx, Russ

 

[Jimmy10mm]

Interesting reading and thanks to all who replied. My OP simply asks the question if a FMJ could do the explosive damage seen in the Zapruder film or would it have had to have been a varmint cartridge ?

. I was hoping for people with hands on rifle experience such as buck460XVR offered in describing his grandfather killing steers with the '06. That is the type of information I'm looking for rather than theories and more speculation.

The other numerous variables deserve to be discussed but I've read enough on those over the past years to have come to my own conclusions and they deserve separate threads in other forums specializing in the topic of the assassination.

The head shot has always puzzled me. If the round was that explosive why didn't it do that kind of damage to the torso ? Hydraulic effect ?

 

[Ky Larry]

IIRC, Oswald bought his rifle from a mail order company. Where did he get his ammo? Is there any record of if, when, or where he set the scope? Was the scope already mounted on the rifle when he ordered it? Was it a new or used rifle? The reason for all the questions is if the scope was already mounted on the rifle and it was used, the previous owner may have set the scope. However, I doubt Oswald would have used an unsighted rifle to take such an important shot.He would have know from his U.S.M.C. training that sights and scopes need to be set.

 

[Sport45]

There is no doubt in my mind that a FMJ rifle bullet could do the kind of damage seen in the Zapruder film an the autopsy photos. That's an awful lot of energy being dumped into a closed space. The skull just couldn't contain it. Fill an empty pop can with water and shoot it with a .22lr solid. It will split from end to end because the opening at the top won't let the pressure out fast enough. The bullet doesn't have to explode or even deform.

 

[heeler]

KyLarry,Oswald ordered the rifle with the scope already on it from an American Rifleman magazine ad.
I have no idea of it's make or setting or where the ammo came from.
My guess on the ammo is he probably ordered it at the same time along with the rifle and scope combo.