Did secret service accidentally fire fatal shot to JFK's head

[JohnKSa]

LAK,

Exit/entrance wounds. All you gotta do is look at the pictures Shawn linked to. The large exit wound is clearly in the front. The small entrance wound is clearly in the back.

Debris ending up on the back of the car. The car was moving. The debris cloud goes up, the car moves underneath the cloud, stuff rains all over. Front, back, off the car, etc.

Who, which FBI person by name "denied it"?

I'll tell you when you tell me the name of the "unnamed scholar" who discovered it. Besides, the very people claiming the memo is genuine are the same ones acknowledging that the FBI says it's fake. Are you saying I should take them at their word when they say the memo is good but doubt them when they say the FBI says it's fake? That doesn't make sense. When the very people touting a piece of evidence admit that the originators claim it's a fake, that's not much of a confidence builder.

There's a lot of real evidence that can be traced to its origin without having to pass through "unnamed scholars" etc. I spent a lot of time tracking down stuff like that over the years but now, unless the evidence is compelling and has a reasonable provenance, I won't waste my time on it. The memo originator says it's fake, the memo finder didn't have enough confidence to attach his name to it--that doesn't sound like evidence, that sounds like something someone typed up in his spare time to muddy the water. AND, even if the memo were true, it doesn't prove anything. Even if one were to accept it as true, the only thing it would prove is that there was possibly some contact between Nixon's staff and Ruby 30 years before the assassination. So even if you could prove it's true, it's worth very little in terms of actually proving anything.

The conspiracy buffs want people to ignore hard evidence (like the autopsy photos, scientific reconstructions, etc.) and embrace shaky evidence like fake memos found by anonymous people. I did that for awhile but it finally got to the point where it wasn't possible any longer unless I was willing to be dishonest with myself.

 

[JohnKSa]

Here's the text from the link Shawn mentioned--it's definitely worth the read.

Extract from “Differences in the Wounding Behavior of the Two Bullets that Struck President Kennedy; An Experimental Study.” (John K. Lattimer, M.D., Sc.D., Jon K. Lattimer, M.D., et. al., Wound Ballistics Review, 2(2): 1995; 13-37):
…Bullet (No. WC 567-569) which struck the President on the back of the head, broke up because of the hardness of the skull, with the immediate transition into the soft tissues of the brain (Fig 31 & 32).

The greatly increased surface area of the broken bullet and its fragments caused a large temporary cavity to occur in the semi-fluid brain, which, being confined in the cranial vault exploded upward and forward, out the huge wound of exit on the front-right of the skull caused by diverging bullet fragments. Our replications demonstrated this “upward and forward” movement of the skull fragments and brain tissue (Fig. 25).

The lead core and gilding metal jacket separated on contact with the skull, (Fig. 26) leaving a 6.5mm fragment sheared off by the sharp edge of the bone at the point of impact. The entry wound on the inside of the skull showed typical “beveling” of the inner end of the skull wound, where the hole was much larger than that of the outer end of the wound, as is characteristic of wound-of-entrance in bone. The broken bullet scattered dozens of tiny fragments of lead along the track of the bullet from back to front through the brain (Fig 27). Fragments several millimeters in diameter were embedded in the inner surface of the front side of the skull, adjacent to the wound track (Fig 28 AP & LAT). All the fragments of lead removed from the President’s head and found on the floor of the Presidential automobile, matched this bullet and not bullet 399. There were lead fragments from 2 bullets and 2 bullets only, by neutron activation analysis.

A “beveling” of the wound of exit on the front of the skull was also observed and 3 segments of skull could be seen in the Zapruder movie, spiraling upward and forward away from the head, with a cloud of exploding brain substance, immediately after impact, just as in our experimental replications (Fig 25). These flew 40 feet in the air and were recovered from the pavement and infield, later.

Almost the entire right hemisphere of the brain was removed by the bullet (Fig 28 A&B, 29 A&B, 30). This is exactly what our test bullets did when we replicated the skull and brain wounds on our experimental model. Fragmentation of our skull was extensive in every case (Fig 31, 32) with upward and forward ejection of brain material and skull fragments, just as shown in the Zapruder movie in frame 313 and subsequent frames (Fig 25). This difference in reaction after impact on bone, in contrast to the impact on soft tissues was consistent. It happened dependably in our replication (Fig 25).

Backward retro-recoil of the skulls, towards the gun, then occurred in our simulations, just as in JFK’s case….

Noting retro-recoil in simulations/reconstructions is quite definitive as "back and to the left" is one of the last battle-cries of the stubborn holdouts.

Also look at the paragraph where they mention pieces going 40 feet into the air. That should be ample explanation for stuff falling ANYWHERE in the reasonably near vicinity of the impact. Heck, there were probably small pieces still falling after the car went into the underpass.

 

[wheelgunkid]

I also saw the program Stormruger mentioned, and I too think Oswald acted on his own. I just don't buy all of these conspiracy theories. I think most folks give our government agencies, etc way too much credit. Alot of em just aren't as bright as they're made out to be.
Look how the naval guys ignored the Japanese planes coming in on Pearl Harbor. Pure human error. Yet people think there was some conspiracy by Roosevelt to allow it to happen. 9/11. People think the government knew the WTC would be attacked. I think it's nonsense. It was just humans not doing their jobs because we're by nature lazy and tend to cut corners whenever we can. Same with Oswald. I think he killed JFK on his own. Now perhaps someone put him up to it. However, I don't think there were any other shooters in downtown Dallas that day.

 

[LAK]

ctdonath

Photos, indicated prior, clearly show the large exit was more front/top/right.

The entry wound is not obvious, for plain reasons. The marked site indicated prior is consistent with the standard scenario

You are referring - must be referring, because it is not anywhere else in the photos - to the piece of scalp that appears to be lifted on the right side of the head above the right ear and temple.

Too many conspiracy theorists seem to think the entry, exit & path involve going straight thru the center of the skull with holes on opposite sides - not recognizing that less central and less uniform paths are more likely in the real world.

I would counter that even a standard jacketed roundnose military c.160 grain 6.5mm bullet would have entered and plowed through the brain on a relatively stable path.

For a magical coincidence theorist, you are apparently not that well up on how fully jacketed high sectional density roundnose bullets at moderate velocity generally behave in this regard. Although likely to have somewhat thinner jackets than their roundnose hunting bullet counterparts, a 6.5mm bullet of this weight has among the highest sectional density to be found. While the gov has not given us the privilege of knowing in detail is the precise contruction specifications of the alleged bullet(s). Walter D M Bell used a 6.5x54mm with full jacket roundnose bullets to drill elephant skulls for brain shots. While he does write that they were "prone to bending", he does not say it "happened all the time", and it is recorded that he killed many elephants this way. An elephant's skull is just a "tad" thicker thicker than any human head in total.

We can speculate that the nose of the bullet would or might have deformed some - but that it made an abrupt turn in brain tissue is stretching things just a tad too much.

Is she really retrieving pieces from the back? or, in freaking out, did she first try crawling off the back, then return to hold what's left of his head together? Remember: being absolutely shocked & distraught, nothing she did in those few seconds was necessarily rational in any way.

That is what she appears to be doing; and I have seen film clear enough that she is definately picking up what are definately pieces of something from the trunk lid and placing them against the back of his head.

Yes, she was in shock, And that is no doubt why she was doing what she is seen to be doing.

Such claims ("the photos were doctored", etc.) are not the realm of sane rational analysis - they are the realm of hysteria and blind faith in fantasies, fueled by a need for justification, no matter how wild or complicated.

This ascribes to a great deal of trust in anything produced in a film media. In fact blind faith sums your point of view up very well indeed.

More like they gave reasonable descriptions of what they saw, which gets mutated as conspiracy theorists play the "telephone game". Given the photos, the mess can easily be described as "back of the head", as it wasn't on his face.

Um, no. These people are on film and are making very clear statements. Also on film is the Whitehouse spokesman who when addressing the press pointed to his right forehead at the hairline and states that it was "a bullet to the brain".

In Peter Jennings' "debunking" piece a few years ago, the same clip is shown with that particular indication and statement edited out. I have both on a disk.

They were grasping the situation. It only lasted a few seconds, which is what it took for them to deal with their cognitive dissonance induced by their healthy happy VIP suddenly splattering innards for no expected or apparent reason.

You are apparently under the notion that the U.S. Secret Service and training and SOPs were somehow undeveloped and inadequate prior to the Kennedy assassination.

Even Connolly, who had no training in this regard at all, has stated, on camera (yes, I have this one as well) that at the first shot he knew what it was, and that it must be an assassination attempt.

It was somewhat more than a few seconds. The driver looks around and stares at Kennedy more than once, as does his colleague, while he is grasping his throat. How much blood do you think might have been apparent from the throat wound - be it entrance or exit - on Kennedy's hands and shirt front?

So rifle shots are ringing out, the President is grasping his bloodied throat, and bullets striking the limo windshield and frame. Connolly knew what was going on at the first shot - but two U.S. Secret Service agents trained and handpicked for a particular task in a motorcade were still collating, and only "grasped" what was going on when the brains went flying.

Right.

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[LAK]

JohnKSa

Exit/entrance wounds. All you gotta do is look at the pictures Shawn linked to. The large exit wound is clearly in the front. The small entrance wound is clearly in the back.

You also must be referring to the flap of scalp visible on the upper right side of Kennedy's head. There is no exit wound - not even a blemish - on the front of Kennedy's head.

Debris ending up on the back of the car. The car was moving. The debris cloud goes up, the car moves underneath the cloud, stuff rains all over. Front, back, off the car, etc.

The car was drifting along very slowly during all this. Having ridden motocycles for a great many years I can say from experience that at such low speeds there is not much of a draft. Not enough to send brain chunks, scalp and skull pieces up into the air and over everyones' heads. In an open limo with a sustantial windshield your theory is not reasonable. Unless of course there was a really strong gusting headwind involved - the majority of the debris should have been sprayed out along the bullet path on exit. The explosion of debris under the pressure momentarily built up within the skull would have had it's greatest release along and around the bullet exit path. Connolly should have been covered with it.

I'll tell you when you tell me the name of the "unnamed scholar" who discovered it. Besides, the very people claiming the memo is genuine are the same ones acknowledging that the FBI says it's fake. Are you saying I should take them at their word when they say the memo is good but doubt them when they say the FBI says it's fake? That doesn't make sense. When the very people touting a piece of evidence admit that the originators claim it's a fake, that's not much of a confidence builder.

It is interesting that a certain piece of paper that merely amounted to an alleged behavioral problem concerning the current President while in the military was given the closest scrutiny, about to the level of a forensic examination. While one allegedly connected to the murder of another President is rather easily discounted on the words of a gov spokesman.

Interesting compartmentalization.

There's a lot of real evidence that can be traced to its origin without having to pass through "unnamed scholars" etc. I spent a lot of time tracking down stuff like that over the years but now, unless the evidence is compelling and has a reasonable provenance, I won't waste my time on it. The memo originator says it's fake, the memo finder didn't have enough confidence to attach his name to it--that doesn't sound like evidence, that sounds like something someone typed up in his spare time to muddy the water. AND, even if the memo were true, it doesn't prove anything. Even if one were to accept it as true, the only thing it would prove is that there was possibly some contact between Nixon's staff and Ruby 30 years before the assassination. So even if you could prove it's true, it's worth very little in terms of actually proving anything.

Well, I have no doubt a great number of people can be persuaded to say alot of things if the right pressure is exerted. I find it bizarre though that if someone was going to go through the trouble of faking such a document pertaining to this particular subject matter that they would have invented a connection between Ruby and Nixon of all people.

As far as shakey, the Oswald "lone nut" theory is about as shakey as it gets.

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[JohnKSa]

LAK,

The exit is described and is clearly visible in the photos as being on the right front of the head which is consistent with a shooter from the rear and the position of the head at the time of the shot. Dunno what else to say about that one...

While one allegedly connected to the murder of another President is rather easily discounted on the words of a gov spokesman.

You've tremendously overstated the importance of the document. IF it were true, it would, AT MOST, connect a congressman's staff with a small-time hood 30 years before the small time hood killed an assassin. To actually connect it to the assassination would require reasonable evidence connecting the congressman or his staff to the assassination, or reasonable evidence connecting the small-time hood to the assassination. Neither exists. They want THIS document to be that evidence, but 1. It's been called a fake by the alleged originators, and 2. It has zero provenance given that the alleged researcher declined to be named.

if someone was going to go through the trouble of faking such a document pertaining to this particular subject matter that they would have invented a connection between Ruby and Nixon of all people.

Well, when you manufacture evidence, you have to be careful to not manufacture evidence that is easily disproved. Besides, you have to remember what the atmosphere toward Nixon was like in 1975 (the date of the "discovery" of the document). Not too hard to believe that someone would try to connect him to the assassination out of pure spite.

Not enough to send brain chunks, scalp and skull pieces up into the air and over everyones' heads. In an open limo with a sustantial windshield your theory is not reasonable.

Did you even read the part about pieces being launched 40 (that's FORTY) feet into the air by the force of the bullet impact? I'm not talking about a 5mph motion generating a strong breeze, I'm talking about a BULLET impact blowing things high into the air and the 5mph limo moving out from under them before they come down. How long do you think it takes for a piece of skull or brain to go up forty feet and then fall back to the ground? CERTAINLY long enough for pieces to end up on the BACK of the limo EVEN if they were launched straight up or forward.

The article that Shawn linked and I quoted dealt very carefully with why the head-shot bullet fragmented. That is consistent with testing I have seen. While a 6.5mm Carcano bullet penetrated a great length of pine without being significantly damaged, it had much more of a tendency to be damaged when shot into a non-homogeneous material. Which is entirely consistent with the testing results described by the Drs. Lattimer.

As far as shakey, the Oswald "lone nut" theory is about as shakey as it gets.

A lot of people have tried to make it look that way, but the more one objectively researches the problem, the less shakey it looks. One of the more critical pieces of evidence that is largely ignored is that EVERYONE close to Oswald including his brother and wife have absolutely no problem believing that he did it.

 

[LAK]

JohnKSa

The exit is described and is clearly visible in the photos as being on the right front of the head which is consistent with a shooter from the rear and the position of the head at the time of the shot. Dunno what else to say about that one...

I do ...

The black and white photo of Kennedy laying flat on his back (where the small alleged entrance wound is visible at the right corner hairline) shows no such wound anywhere on the front of his head or face. Viewing the Zapruder film, he was facing forward at the impact of the headshot.

You've tremendously overstated the importance of the document. IF it were true, it would, AT MOST, connect a congressman's staff with a small-time hood 30 years before the small time hood killed an assassin. [etc]

Overstated?
Your statement here underscores the coincidence theory mindset; where a key assassination figure's association with a Senator and later President very personally associated with another suspect, E. Howard Hunt, is downplayed well below the flag level.

They want THIS document to be that evidence, but 1. It's been called a fake by the alleged originators, and 2. It has zero provenance given that the alleged researcher declined to be named.

The alleged document is either a fake - or it has enormous implications for Richard Nixon and some others around him.

E. Howard Hunt, the man whom Nixon risked impeachment and prison over, and resigned in lieu, in his obstruction of the FBI investigation into Hunt's past, was specifically implicated in the assassination. Was Marita Lorenz's testimony concerning Hunt and the Kennedy assassination a fabrication as well?

You see, these things need to be resolved completely if the fairytale is to be even considered as being partially true.

Well, when you manufacture evidence, you have to be careful to not manufacture evidence that is easily disproved. Besides, you have to remember what the atmosphere toward Nixon was like in 1975 (the date of the "discovery" of the document). Not too hard to believe that someone would try to connect him to the assassination out of pure spite.

Of course; but the document is not the only thing connecting Nixon to the assassination.

Did you even read the part about pieces being launched 40 (that's FORTY) feet into the air by the force of the bullet impact? I'm not talking about a 5mph motion generating a strong breeze, I'm talking about a BULLET impact blowing things high into the air and the 5mph limo moving out from under them before they come down.

The large pieces that landed on the trunk did not fly 40 feet into the air - and then fall down onto a moving car a few feet behind Kennedy. The limo was going faster than 5 mph, and even had it been going that speed, 40 feet is alot of freefall at such a pace.

How long do you think it takes for a piece of skull or brain to go up forty feet and then fall back to the ground? CERTAINLY long enough for pieces to end up on the BACK of the limo EVEN if they were launched straight up or forward.

See above. And long enough to land on the road behind, and as recorded onto the motocycle cops behind.

The bottom line is this, Connolly and the area around him and the front of the limo should have been covered with it.

The article that Shawn linked and I quoted dealt very carefully with why the head-shot bullet fragmented. That is consistent with testing I have seen. While a 6.5mm Carcano bullet penetrated a great length of pine without being significantly damaged, it had much more of a tendency to be damaged when shot into a non-homogeneous material. Which is entirely consistent with the testing results described by the Drs. Lattimer.

This is not consistant with what people that have used, and use, such bullets to hunt game animals with would agree with.

The roundnose full jacket bullets alleged to have been used were in the 154 to 160 grain range. Regardless of which, in this class of bullet they have extremely high sectional density. Which is why W D M Bell used them to brain shoot elephants - an exercize that aside from being inherently risky, a minimal deviation of bullet path through an enormous amount of bone structure and then brain tissue is required. Bell wrote that some of the bullets he used were recovered virtually re-useable, and only that the 6.5s would sometimes bend. In elephant heads!

Even if we presume that the military 6.5 bullets had slightly thinner jackets (and the "experts" should have addressed this point), a human skull is not but a fraction of the ballistic obstacle compared to that of an elephant.

Even if some bullet nose deformation occurred, the bullets would still have substantial length body remaining behind, and the bullet path would likely have been quite direct through the brain.

Even softpoint bullets of high weight for caliber (high sectional density) will plow a relatively staright path with a heavily deformed nose - even if the nose is assymetrically deformed - providing a long base shank remains. This is because of the stabilizing effect of the long shank.

A lot of people have tried to make it look that way, but the more one objectively researches the problem, the less shakey it looks. One of the more critical pieces of evidence that is largely ignored is that EVERYONE close to Oswald including his brother and wife have absolutely no problem believing that he did it.

Alot of people will state that they believe alot of thing if they are in fear of their life.

Or are directly involved themselves. Oswald's visit and circumstances in Russia - and his wife herself - are another very interesting subject.

And the fear factor is nowhere more prevalent than among people who are unable to comprehend the implications of a substantial number of people in high places that are willing to murder anyone that is a threat to them or their agenda. That one really scares people, and most will grab hold of anything rather than face that one.

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[ctdonath]

LAK,

The photos clearly show the back half of the skull is intact, save what appears to be a tiny entrance wound near the top.
The photos also clearly indicate - reinforced by the positioning of the examiner's hand with fingers inserted into gaping hole - the upper/front/right part of the skull blown out right around the hairline.

You misunderstood my comment about bullet path. I never said anything about an "abrupt turn". I didn't say it changed direction, I indicated that it did not enter perpendicularly & travel thru the center of the skull - as most conspiracy theorists presume axiomatically. Consistent with entry/exit wounds, shooter position, target position, and backstop damage, the bullet obviously and reasonably entered at a shallow angle to the skull's surface, traveled not thru the center (medula) but instead traveled no more than about an inch from the surface, and then exited also at a somewhat shallow angle, tending to blow pieces more up than forward (with some arcing back for Jackie to pick up as you insist). The strike was not centered and not perpendicular; it was an oblique angle travelling somewhere between center & tangential. Nothing unreasonable about that; must I draw pictures?

This ascribes to a great deal of trust in anything produced in a film media.

Photographs are a far more reliable witness than short comments made to the press by politicians. I'll take a consistent set of autopsy photos over secondhand comments by a non-physician political operative making official statements to a press pool. Funny thing is, both are consistent! The photos show a large upper/front/right exit wound, and the entrance wound is understandably tiny and easily overlooked; the White House spokesman you quote pointed to his right forehead at the hairline - right where the exit wound is. Obviously & understandably he'd refer to the most obvious part of the complex injury: the graphic upper/front/right exit mess instead of the tiny entrance hole he may not have even noticed.

You are apparently under the notion that the U.S. Secret Service and training and SOPs were somehow undeveloped and inadequate prior to the Kennedy assassination. Even Connolly, who had no training in this regard at all, has stated, on camera ... that at the first shot he knew what it was, and that it must be an assassination attempt. It was somewhat more than a few seconds.

I've seen the Zapruder film many times. The incident takes only a few seconds. Human response time, which here includes turning around, processing images, formulating a reaction, and acting is going to take about that long - how fast do you seriously expect them to act? especially with such a dramatic and unexpected initiating event? Even well-trained, they are human and it takes time to react; actually I'd say their reaction time was pretty good.

Heck, (for comparison) it takes about 1.5 seconds to draw and fire (a la Teuller Drill) when you're expecting an initiating event and have your eyes on a target. How long does it take YOU, while driving, to recognize a completely unexpected gunshot, turn your head, look at a backseat passenger, go "oh he's been shot", decide what to do, step on the gas (you don't have to be looking forward to accelerate, remember), and then look forward?

And for more on "keeping him in the field of fire": it's not like they could instantly whisk JFK out of the field of fire. They're on a road. Limos take time to accelerate. Transmissions (manual or automatic) take time to switch from slow parade cruising speed to "they're shooting at us" escape velocity. Driving off-road wasn't a viable option; getting thru the bridge/tunnel (the only viable escape route) takes time, and the field of fire encompassed that whole section of road.

The whole incident took, what, six seconds? Under the "lone nut theory", how long do you seriously expect the scenario to play out, from first unexpected "crack" to suitable response from SS?

From what I'm reading of your theory, you expect:
- Perfect centered perpendicular headshot from moderate range
- Plainly visible wounds aren't
- Plain absence of wounds where severe damage is claimed to exist
- Multiple doctored autopsy photos (long before Photoshopping)
- Later known edited material trumps known originals
- Instantly exectued perfectly choreographed responses to unexpected unknown actions
Ain't buying it. Occam's Razor rules.

BTW: Have you tried "JFK Reloaded"? Clinched the "lone nut" theory for me in 5 minutes flat.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

How long does it take YOU, while driving, to recognize a completely unexpected gunshot, turn your head, look at a backseat passenger, go "oh he's been shot", decide what to do, step on the gas (you don't have to be looking forward to accelerate, remember), and then look forward?

Classic OODA Loop stuff. The longest part is "orientation," i.e., correctly interpreting the situation based on the information you sense.

Also known as "WTFO?"

 

[JohnKSa]

LAK,

Just lost a long and carefully crafted reply to the combination post/flush feature of the board. Here's a brief rehash.

Entry wound is circled in the pics I posted, it's not at the hairline.

Exit wound is on right front of head. You can see the damange extends down onto the right forehead above right eye. Flap of skull over ear is a piece of skull on scalp flap, not a wound. Look at the color picture and you can see that most of what should be covering the right front of his head is laying back down in flaps over the top of his head. His hair color and the blood merge in the B&W pics and make it harder to interpret the photos properly.

Memo isn't evidence even if it's true, and even if it were, it doesn't connect any primary players in the assassination. At best it connects Nixon's staff to Ruby neither of which were connected to the assassination. This kind of stuff gets a lot of attention because people don't realize how interconnected we all are--there are several interesting games/examples of this sort of thing. There was even a TV show that demonstrated how apparently unrelated things and events could be found to have circuitous connections. So even if the memo is genuine, it is not evidence of any conspiracy. Not even if you combine it with a bunch of other similar "non-evidence."

Pieces went everywhere. UP, around, forward, back. Some were distributed by bullet impact. Some were distributed by Kennedy's head movements. Some were inadvertently moved around by the people in the vicinity. Watch the film. What's amazing is not where the pieces ended up but that everyone in the area didn't get hit with one.

The testing/reconstruction I've seen used the same type of bullets, same type of rifle and identical muzzle velocities and ranges as Oswald's. The article Shawn linked to was completely consistent with every scientific test/reconstruction I've seen.

I've read somewhere between 60 and 100 books on this topic and watched every documentary I could find. I started out trying to prove a conspiracy and was driven to conclude just the opposite. At this point, you're like someone trying to be witty by making a joke for an old guy about his funny name. You may think you've got something new and original and compelling, but I've heard it all before.

 

[nyresq]

Pfft. Everyone knows that Elvis shot JFK.


Get real. It's well known it was Bigfoot.

duh... what do you think Elvis really is????

notice the body hair??? the bushy eyebrows??
I mean who the hell else eats banana and peanut butter sandwiches????

Elvis=Bigfooot=Kennedy asassin

didn't anyone here pay any attention in school???? simple facts here people.....

 

[LAK]

ctdonath

The photos clearly show the back half of the skull is intact, save what appears to be a tiny entrance wound near the top.

One photo does give that appearence. Another photo gives the precise same appearence of the exact same condition, and possible small entrance wound - of the front of the head

The photos also clearly indicate - reinforced by the positioning of the examiner's hand with fingers inserted into gaping hole - the upper/front/right part of the skull blown out right around the hairline.

Actually, a couple of the examiner's fingers could have been stuffed up his nose or in his mouth for all we know. They are not visible in any case, and there is no gaping wound on the face or forehead to stuff anything in the photo I have referred to.

So either one of the photos is doctored, the body's appearence altered some - or both - in one of these two photos. Which is it?

You misunderstood my comment about bullet path. I never said anything about an "abrupt turn". I didn't say it changed direction, I indicated that it did not enter perpendicularly & travel thru the center of the skull - as most conspiracy theorists presume axiomatically.

Now we are getting somewhere. But no "conspiracy theorist" that I know of that are knowledgeable of wound ballistics thinks this way.

Consistent with entry/exit wounds, shooter position, target position, and backstop damage, the bullet obviously and reasonably entered at a shallow angle to the skull's surface, traveled not thru the center (medula) but instead traveled no more than about an inch from the surface, and then exited also at a somewhat shallow angle, tending to blow pieces more up than forward (with some arcing back for Jackie to pick up as you insist).

The photo showing an alleged entry at the back of head does not appear to be a shallow angle hit as, like the one in the upper right hairline, is fairly clean and round looking.

The strike was not centered and not perpendicular; it was an oblique angle travelling somewhere between center & tangential. Nothing unreasonable about that; must I draw pictures?

This might explain the large scalp flap (it appears in the Zapruder film at impact) on the right side of the head in the photo that some claim the examiner has got his fingers in a "frontal exit" wound.

But lets recount some firsthand professional testimony; that of Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Richard Dulany, Dr, Charles Crenshaw, Dr. Marion Jenkins, Dr. Paul Peters, Dr. Kenneth Salyer, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Charles Carrico and a nurse, Audrey Bell - all who have stated on film, and indicated with their open hand over the rear right portion of the head, that this is where Kennedy had a large open head wound.

All these people saw the body in a professional capacity, and or had direct contact with it. Are they all lying? If so; which is the greater and more ridiculous "conspiracy theory"? All these doctors lying, conspiring, along with others - and others faking a document and possible other evidence over a decade later? Or the gov fairytale?

Photographs are a far more reliable witness than short comments made to the press by politicians.

Right; except in this case we have two photos that are not in agreement with eyewitnesses and one which directly contradicts the gov fairytale.

I'll take a consistent set of autopsy photos over secondhand

Someone who claims that these two photos support each other is not talking about the same two photos. That is the only way I can avoid terms like non compus mentus, etc

comments by a non-physician political operative making official statements to a press pool

You mean like that of the New York Times the day after, written by Tom Wicker where he referenced sources as Dr. Malcolm Perry and Dr. Kemp Clark? It runs thus, QUOTE;

"Later in the Afternoon Dr. Malcolm Perry, attending surgeon, and Dr, Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery at Parkland Hospital, gave more details.

Mr. Kennedy was hit by a bullet in the throat, just below the Adam's apple, they said. The wound had the appearence of the bullet's entry.

Mr. Kennedy also had a massive, gaping wound in the back and one on the right side of the head. Howver doctors said it was impossible to determine immediately whether the wounds had been caused by one bullet or two. "
ENDQUOTE

Funny thing is, both are consistent! The photos show a large upper/front/right exit wound, and the entrance wound is understandably tiny and easily overlooked; the White House spokesman you quote pointed to his right forehead at the hairline - right where the exit wound is. Obviously & understandably he'd refer to the most obvious part of the complex injury: the graphic upper/front/right exit mess instead of the tiny entrance hole he may not have even noticed.

There is not a single mark - even a blemish - on Kennedy's face, except the small one already discussed, at the corner hairline. The injection of the word "front" here again indicates we are not speaking of the same photos again. There is nothing shown on the front of Kennedy's head. Not a thing.

Now, Dr. Cyril Wecht, onetime chief of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences has theorized that it may have been two bullets in a synchronized shooting. But he does not buy the fairytale as told. Is he qualified?

I have to take issue with this habitual suggestion by coincidence theorists who seem to like to promote the idea that they themselves, and they alone, and regardless of the incident discussed, somehow hold the intellectual highground in matters are that hotly contested by often several sides of very qualified and expert people. They like applying terms like "conspiracy theorists" in a derogatory context, all the while ignoring the often more absurd conpiracy theory embodied in the official fable.

If you want an objective debate, one that has any hope of a conclusion, or a step closer to one, that nonsense is not going to take it there.

I've seen the Zapruder film many times. The incident takes only a few seconds. Human response time, which here includes turning around, processing images, formulating a reaction, and acting is going to take about that long - how fast do you seriously expect them to act? especially with such a dramatic and unexpected initiating event? Even well-trained, they are human and it takes time to react; actually I'd say their reaction time was pretty good.

Having a good forty years plus of adventure and experience in let's say more than a few a hair-raising situations. Some short, some long, some accompanied by much noise, some serenely quiet, the fear of death, some otherwise. I really don't need a lecture on this stuff.

I don't know how much boy and adulthood adventure Gov Connolly had up to this point - but he has stated that he knew immediately at the first rifle shot that it must be an assassination attempt. But let's get back to the Zapruder film. How long is it from the first shot to last, exactly? The Zapruder film is 26.6 seconds total; the actual shooting is more than "a few seconds".

The driver turns around twice, and stares at Kennedy the second time - doing an estimated 9 mph - while rifleshots are still ringing out, Kennedys shirtfront and hands bloodied, and does nothing until his brains get airborne.

That is the reaction of one of two explanations. A Secret Service agent whose task was to keep Kennedy in the kill zone long enough. Or someone who was sustituted for a Seceret Service agent as driver before the fact. I would not accept anything else as being a rational explanation. The same could be applied to the other agent in the front for that matter.

Heck, (for comparison) it takes about 1.5 seconds to draw and fire (a la Teuller Drill) when you're expecting an initiating event and have your eyes on a target.

Again, it is plain in the film; the agent almost leisurely turns around twice during the shooting. It is not until the brains flew that he earnestly faces forward, and stomps on the gas. It was a clear set up.

How long does it take YOU, while driving, to recognize a completely unexpected gunshot, turn your head, look at a backseat passenger, go "oh he's been shot", decide what to do, step on the gas (you don't have to be looking forward to accelerate, remember), and then look forward?

"Decide what to do"? This would be hysterically funny were the subject perhaps something else.

The guy had slowed to about NINE mph to begin with. Does that tell you anything?

And for more on "keeping him in the field of fire": it's not like they could instantly whisk JFK out of the field of fire. They're on a road. Limos take time to accelerate. Transmissions (manual or automatic) take time to switch from slow parade cruising speed to "they're shooting at us" escape velocity. Driving off-road wasn't a viable option; getting thru the bridge/tunnel (the only viable escape route) takes time, and the field of fire encompassed that whole section of road.

That limo should have accelerated enough to have made a bit of a zig zag using the whole road a good starting point. I have driven alot of big heavy cars, many with less power than those made during the 1960s, standard and automatics. The driver of that limo did nothing until it was over and done with - and put him there to begin with at about NINE miles per hour.

The whole incident took, what, six seconds? Under the "lone nut theory", how long do you seriously expect the scenario to play out, from first unexpected "crack" to suitable response from SS?

We must backpedal some.

He should not have allowed the speed of the unprotected limo to drop that low to begin with. But at the first rifleshot, one quick glance over his shoulder at Kennedy should have been enough. By the time of the second shot, he should have been hard on the gas and swerving. His colleague should have been making his way if possible into the back to cover him physically.

Instantly exectued perfectly choreographed responses to unexpected unknown actions

Since the Secret Service was tasked with close in personal protection of presidents, this the way they have been trained and for what. They have, from the beginning, been the most highly trained in this regard of any agency. Much like their counterparts in some other countries, I can not imagine where you may have got your impression that it would be anything else.

"JFK Reloaded"?

No, I haven't. If it can explain why a half dozen doctors lied to create a "conspiracy theory" by offering conflicting eyewitness testimony to a single photo - among the other points dissected - I'd like to see it.

------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[LAK]

JohnKSa

Just lost a long and carefully crafted reply to the combination post/flush feature of the board

After that happened to me a time or two I got into the habit of "cutting - ready to paste" the more complicated posts before touching the SUBMIT button

Exit wound is on right front of head. You can see the damange extends down onto the right forehead above right eye. Flap of skull over ear is a piece of skull on scalp flap, not a wound. Look at the color picture and you can see that most of what should be covering the right front of his head is laying back down in flaps over the top of his head. His hair color and the blood merge in the B&W pics and make it harder to interpret the photos properly.

To save much repeat, I'll refer to my post to ctdonath. I would add that there is one obvious and as yet never officially explained difference between the b&w and one color image of Kennedy on his back. These photos were allegedly taken at different times and places. But basically, there is one distinct different beyond any arguement. The color image shows extended exposed subcutaneous (and deeper) tissue culminating in a distinctive apex well below the hairline on the right upper forehead. This is not what is seen in the ealier b&w image showing the alleged small entrance wound at the upper right hairline corner.

Memo isn't evidence even if it's true, and even if it were, it doesn't connect any primary players in the assassination. At best it connects Nixon's staff to Ruby neither of which were connected to the assassination.

It is circumstantial; if there were no other people connected to Nixon of interest in the Kennedy assassination it would still warrant a thorough look into. We can not say it merely ties Ruby to one or more of Nixon's staff, because without an indepth investigation that can not be accepted on an assumption. Not in a true murder investigation anyway. In a whitewash it might fly - for awhile.

This kind of stuff gets a lot of attention because people don't realize how interconnected we all are--there are several interesting games/examples of this sort of thing. ... etc

All very entertaining for some people I suppose. But one has to suffer from at least a temporary lapse of some kind - or perhaps wilful ignorance - to deny or not notice the various other issues and people connecting Nixon to the Kennedy assassination.

Pieces went everywhere. UP, around, forward, back. Some were distributed by bullet impact. Some were distributed by Kennedy's head movements. Some were inadvertently moved around by the people in the vicinity. Watch the film. What's amazing is not where the pieces ended up but that everyone in the area didn't get hit with one.

I agree. But Connolly, his wife and the area around them should have had it all over them. According to the official fairytale. But as there was no frontal exit wound on Kennedy's face, it comes as no surprize that there is no mention that I know of any indication that any blood, brains, scalp, bone, teeth, cartilage, fatty tissue was distributed in Connolly's vicinity.

The testing/reconstruction I've seen used the same type of bullets, same type of rifle and identical muzzle velocities and ranges as Oswald's. The article Shawn linked to was completely consistent with every scientific test/reconstruction I've seen.

All well and good. What precisely were the jacket thicknesses, were they consistant? This is crucial; many roundnose FMJ bullets designed for hunting will not go to pieces on bone. Given the condition of the bullet that showed up on the stretcher (the wrong stretcher) at Parkland hospital, it is not likely it was the one that zigzagged Connolly's body parts. And not the fragmented ones tested in various bullet vs bone tests.

It is unfathomable that bullets possibly identical to those that have routinely drilled elephant skulls would go to pieces on one human head. On the otherhand, if they were military spec, made by a particular gov or contractor for issue to one of more armies, it is crucial that the jackets be measured for comparison. They may have had thinner jackets. But simply using similar style 6.5 bullets of even exactly the same weight isn't going to cut it.

I've read somewhere between 60 and 100 books on this topic and watched every documentary I could find. I started out trying to prove a conspiracy and was driven to conclude just the opposite. At this point, you're like someone trying to be witty by making a joke for an old guy about his funny name. You may think you've got something new and original and compelling, but I've heard it all before.

That's an irrational conclusion given so much eyewitness testimony that directly indicates to the contrary. I count twelve medical staff alone. If you have heard them all, by name (refer to my above post) - what exactly is your theory explaining their cohesive story contrary to one possibly doctored photo?

And speaking of testimony, you failed to comment on Marita Lorenz's testimony concerning E. Howard Hunt (among others). That one, I believe was under oath.

----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[usp9]

News Flash...

Oswald killed Kennedy...simple as that.

O J Killed Ron and Nichole...simple as that.

The Rosenbergs were really spies...simple as that.

Flying saucers do not really have ET inside...simple as that.

The government sucks too much tax revenue from my wallet.

This is the way it is.

 

[answerguy]

Lots of discussion about percentages in this thread. What about the odds of LHO being hired to work at the TSBD just 5 weeks before JFK makes his trip to Dallas.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm

When was the parade route made public? If LHO was hired before the parade route was made public does that point to a government conspiracy or that LHO was the 'luckiest' man in the world?

 

[ctdonath]

there is no gaping wound on the face or forehead

Never said there was.

What I do keep pointing out - and you keep ignoring - is the gaping wound in the front hemisphere and above the hairline. That's in the front of his head.

As we seem unable to agree on something as basic as what constitutes "front of the head", there really isn't much point in continuing the discussion further. Doubly so when much of your conspiracy theory rests on subjective interpretations, second-guessing human behavior, 20/20 hindsight, and assuming complex subterfuge when something doesn't match your presumptions.

All I can say is: Line up the known mechanics of the situation, and it all points to a single shooter. If in doing so your results point elsewhere, I have reason to believe you don't have your facts right, which I find is common among conspiracy theorists. Lacking or misunderstanding a fact requires a complex, and often absurd, explaination to make it all fit - and excessive complexity in an explaination is usually indicative of a flaw in reasoning. I have to agree with JohnKSa in that every theory, as novel as it may be to you, has been examined ... with only "Oswald, alone" surviving scrutiny.

And I find it odd that you, being such an adamant researcher of the subject, have not looked into the only truly new - and intensely controversial - analysis of the event: JFK Reloaded. (...maybe because it shows "Oswald, alone" makes sense.)

 

[JohnKSa]

That's an irrational conclusion given so much eyewitness testimony that directly indicates to the contrary.

It is expected to have a certain amount of contradictory evidence. Fortunately we have photo and film and other evidence as well as reconstructions to help us determine what really happened.

FWIW, most of the "contradictions" I researched to death weren't NEARLY so contradictory as the conspiracy theorists tried to make them.

 

[Preacherman]

Folks, I'm getting very, very tired of all the conspiracy theorists and their blathering. Enough! We shall never know more than we know now about JFK's killing, and that's that.