MCgunner
Member
I'm sorry, age has dulled the brain. That's my excuse even though Art is older and seems a might sharper.
hunting damage to animals
- Thread starter Bezoar
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I'm sorry, age has dulled the brain. That's my excuse even though Art is older and seems a might sharper.
Actually, thats false. There are bullets made in .224 caliber for hunting small game, indeed. There are also .224 caliber bullets designed for optimm performance on human targets, paper, varmints, and believe it or not, there are even .224 DESIGNED to be used on deer and hogs. You cannot make a statement such as the one I quoted, and expect no argument. The .223/5.56 was originally designed as a military cartridge used to take out human targets, not developed as small game round. It does have its fan in the varmint and predator fields, but modern bullet construction has allowed the .223 to be used as a deer cartridge successfully, within its limits. I have yet to lose ether a whitetail or mule deer shot with my .223, and we're not talking 50 Lb Alabama deer, we're talking the 200 lb plus deer of the Northern Plains.
Without seeing it yourself, this post is nothing but useless hyperbole....Ive ht deer with with a well-placed shot from my 7mm that traveled further than the last deer I shot I with the my .223. Dead is dead, and if I can achieve that goal with lower recoil, greater accuracy (most people tend to shoot lighter-recoiling rifles more accurately) less noise, and lower cost.....and do so consistently....another person's opinion that I'm doing something "wrong" doesn't really hold much weight with me at all. Too, the idea that illegal to use the .223 in many areas is largely false. While there are exceptions, most states that allow riflees to be used on big game allowthe .223/5.56 to be used on deer.
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Thanks, Davek. You've expanded on what many of us have said in numerous threads. Basically, it looks to me that folks who bumrap the .223 for Bambi are sorta stuck in a "twenty years ago" view. What was generally true then is no longer factual.
scottbird
Member
yes davek, you are so on with that. I would also say that if the military uses it to stop a man, the last time I looked, people are not small game.
gamestalker
member
I've shot small deer (couse) in the head with a .270 win. @ 3100 fps 130 gr. cup & core SP at close range, and the head didn't come apart at all.
What I think would most likely happen, is the bullet will leave a small exit wound, probably smaller than a ping pong ball.
As for a through the shoulder blade shot, I'm guessing the bullet may not exit at all if using a typical hunting bullet. FMJ would very possibly go through and through, but I doubt those are legal to hunt with, they aren't in my state anyway.
IMHO, I would try to procure a more appropriate deer hunting cartridge / rifle, .223 isn't really optimal for this application. But if it's legal, and your dead set on trying it, just make sure you use a bullet that is best suited for the task, and good shot placement, probably head or neck shot would probably offer the quickest dispatch.
GS
GS
What I think would most likely happen, is the bullet will leave a small exit wound, probably smaller than a ping pong ball.
As for a through the shoulder blade shot, I'm guessing the bullet may not exit at all if using a typical hunting bullet. FMJ would very possibly go through and through, but I doubt those are legal to hunt with, they aren't in my state anyway.
IMHO, I would try to procure a more appropriate deer hunting cartridge / rifle, .223 isn't really optimal for this application. But if it's legal, and your dead set on trying it, just make sure you use a bullet that is best suited for the task, and good shot placement, probably head or neck shot would probably offer the quickest dispatch.
GS
GS
black_powder_Rob
Member
Well let me put it this way, I have shot both deer and hog with my .223. For the hogs I went for head shots and lung shots. The hogs either drop right there with the head shot or ran 10 yards with the lung shot. As for the deer I try for the base of the neck or right behind the elbow. They never get very far from where they were shot. It is an "appropriate deer" hunting cartridge.
pcbuckhunter
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Strictly my opinion, I won't shoot a. Deer with a bullet weighing less than 140 gr.
This rules out anything smaller than 6.5 mm.
I used to hunt with fellers that hunted with .223, .22/250, .220 Swift, .243, and other assorted varmint calibers.
9 times out of 10, when they shot, one of 3 things happened...
1. A VERY long tracking job(½ mile Plus)
2. A VERY long tracking job PLUS a follow up shot.
3. An unrecovered deer.
These were from lung shots mostly, a few liver hits.
I have gotten to the point where I will NOT hunt with someone using varmint guns for deer. I have spent more than my fair share of nights crawling around in nasty snake infested swamps looking for SOMEBODY ELSE'S deer, because they didn't use enough gun. I'm too Damn old for that ****.
This rules out anything smaller than 6.5 mm.
I used to hunt with fellers that hunted with .223, .22/250, .220 Swift, .243, and other assorted varmint calibers.
9 times out of 10, when they shot, one of 3 things happened...
1. A VERY long tracking job(½ mile Plus)
2. A VERY long tracking job PLUS a follow up shot.
3. An unrecovered deer.
These were from lung shots mostly, a few liver hits.
I have gotten to the point where I will NOT hunt with someone using varmint guns for deer. I have spent more than my fair share of nights crawling around in nasty snake infested swamps looking for SOMEBODY ELSE'S deer, because they didn't use enough gun. I'm too Damn old for that ****.
If they had those kind of results "9 out of 10" times, I'd accompany them to the store next time they select ammo and steer them away from varmint bullets and instead towards a bullet actually designed for deer. That isn't at all the sort of results I've witnessed with 15-20 deer shot with a .243, and a handful with the .223 and quality bullets. If they lose deer or have "excessive" tracking to do, there's more wrong with the equation than simply the caliber used, IMO
pcbuckhunter
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I trailed most of those deer myself, most were good shots. Through the lungs, maybe liver and 1 lung on a quartering deer.
Most of them were shot with 65 gr Sierra GameKings.
I don't like little bitty piss ant bullets for deer.
YMMV
I certainly don't consider a .243 to be anywhere near a varmint caliber. I imagine I have killed 20 or more deer with a .243 and they were just as likely to die quickly as with the 30-06. A .243 through the lungs will kill the deer within 10-15 seconds.
I have also shot prairie dogs with a .243.
I have also shot prairie dogs with a .243.
pcbuckhunter
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The .243 is only marginally better than a .22 cal centerfire IMO.
They are a big varmint caliber, make good coyote guns.
Carry it if you want.... I'll carry my deer calibers.
My opinion is that .223 is a bit small...and I wouldn't use it unless I had no other options. I won't dog someone for using it. Just my opinion...there is very little margin for error..and you don't always have the optimal shooting stance or set up when hunting. But sure it can get the job done.
The .243 while being close in diameter, I believe carries a lot more hydro-static shock. I have taken a very large 13 point buck with a .243 and consider it to be a fairly good deer caliber.....just on the small side..
someone said earlier about 140 grains being their cut off...I would just add that a 130 gr in .270 is a great caliber for deer.
The .243 while being close in diameter, I believe carries a lot more hydro-static shock. I have taken a very large 13 point buck with a .243 and consider it to be a fairly good deer caliber.....just on the small side..
someone said earlier about 140 grains being their cut off...I would just add that a 130 gr in .270 is a great caliber for deer.
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pcbuckhunter
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I like heavy for caliber bullets. I shoot 150 gr in my .270 Wby
txcookie
Member
Pick your shots. 223 needs a good rifleman and a broad side offering. Put it in the lungs and your gtg
Here is the conundrum. I have killed many deer with a .243 (on purpose and by design) which, IMHO, makes it a deer caliber. I have killed them with many 30 cal firearms and carry a 30-06 most of the time. I know people that think a 7mm Mag is a requirement. I know many people that think a 30-30 is NOT an adequate deer caliber.
If you have had to track "9 out of 10" deer for a half mile, or lost a lot of deer that were shot with a .243, then the problem is NOT the rifle. A .243 bullet through the lungs will not allow the deer to run half a mile, 1/4 mile or even close.
I get the feeling that someone may be making up some statistics.
scottbird
Member
pcbuckhunter
I got to hunt in Alaska about 15 years ago, I took a 360 pound bull with my 243 at 275 yds. now you might just say that was dumb luck, but, as I was working up there I spent most of my free time with the local indians there. and well they hunt everything, elk, moose, even polar bear, and 90% of them do that with the 243.
243 is far from a varmint rifle. as is the 223, I have tracked deer for people for over a mile that were shot with 300 win mag, and 7mm mag. there is no law that says that if you shoot a deer in the right spot it is just going to fall right there and that is it.
I worked with several people from differnt countries, and they all say the same thing, only a dumb American would go into the woods with a 101hollister. I have an affrican friend that has taken four lions, an elephant, and several other dangours game with a 303 british.
to call one that you do not prefer inferior, just shows your ignorance to the field of fireams.
I do not like semi-auto weapons, that is my right. however it is not my right to say, seeing as I do not like the, there should not be any, nor should anyone own them beacuse I think they are only good for one thing. I would be infringing on every one elses rights.
I got to hunt in Alaska about 15 years ago, I took a 360 pound bull with my 243 at 275 yds. now you might just say that was dumb luck, but, as I was working up there I spent most of my free time with the local indians there. and well they hunt everything, elk, moose, even polar bear, and 90% of them do that with the 243.
243 is far from a varmint rifle. as is the 223, I have tracked deer for people for over a mile that were shot with 300 win mag, and 7mm mag. there is no law that says that if you shoot a deer in the right spot it is just going to fall right there and that is it.
I worked with several people from differnt countries, and they all say the same thing, only a dumb American would go into the woods with a 101hollister. I have an affrican friend that has taken four lions, an elephant, and several other dangours game with a 303 british.
to call one that you do not prefer inferior, just shows your ignorance to the field of fireams.
I do not like semi-auto weapons, that is my right. however it is not my right to say, seeing as I do not like the, there should not be any, nor should anyone own them beacuse I think they are only good for one thing. I would be infringing on every one elses rights.
I'll take my personal experience over the advice of others. Fusion 62 grain softpoints have killed every deer I've put them into without a difficult recovery job, and we're talking bigger northern plains mulies and whitetails, not 50 lb Alabama deer. I stand by my asssertion that if 9 out of 1o shots resulting in lost deer or extensive tracking, there's more to the equation than caliber. What range were these shots taken? I limit shots to under 200 yards, and prefer to keep it within 150. Hits are certainly easy at further ranges, but I don't trust bullet performance beyond that. As for the bulk of the deer being shot with 65 gran gamekings...I'm not familiar with the bullet, but if I witnessed the results you did, I wouldn't have shot or even allowed deer to be shot by members of my hunting party if I'd seen poor performance 90% of the time with that bullet. If something doesn't work the first time or two, I see no reason to keep reliving that mistake, especially a the cost of animal suffering needlessly. I've recovered 100% of deer shot with the fusion factory round, taking broadside chest shots.
Sav .250
Member
There are times when you simply over-think a possible problem.
In Ohio, we’ve been limited to slug guns and muzzleloaders for deer. (Until recent changes allowing for straight walled cartridges of certain calibers) However, I was drawn for a small, local airport controlled deer hunt last year. Any rifles of any caliber could be used, with no limit on does. Antlered deer were off limits.
Long story short, I harvested 7 deer, all taken with a Savage Axis, in .243 (100grn). Each deer required only one shot, and not one went more than 30 yards before meeting its demise. These weren’t small southern deer, but fat, corn and bean fed brutes in NW Ohio, several approaching 200 pounds. Shot distances ranged from 30 yards to slightly over 200 yards. Only one deer was shot in the neck, the rest were heart/lung shots.
Long story short, I harvested 7 deer, all taken with a Savage Axis, in .243 (100grn). Each deer required only one shot, and not one went more than 30 yards before meeting its demise. These weren’t small southern deer, but fat, corn and bean fed brutes in NW Ohio, several approaching 200 pounds. Shot distances ranged from 30 yards to slightly over 200 yards. Only one deer was shot in the neck, the rest were heart/lung shots.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Gigglesnort! I've tagged some two-dozen bucks via my .243. None of them moved out of their tracks after the shot. I did do a coup de grace on one, "out of kindness, I suppose". I guess that I was too ignorant to know any better about the .243.
pcbuckhunter
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These are merely MY personal experiences with what are, IMO, sub par calibers for deer.
Little bitty bullets that do very little damage.
Small hole= small blood trail.
Yes I have seen deer run a long ways when shot with larger calibers. This is the exception and not the rule in MY experience.
As far as my statistics, the proof is in the pudding.
I have the data written down in our clubs log book.
Shot distance, tracking distance, animal size, animal sex, caliber used, deer recovered ( yes or no). Etc.
20 deer shot with the calibers I mentioned before.
18 fall into one of the 3 categories I mentioned in my previous post.
I will provide more detailed data when I put my hands on the log book.
Little bitty bullets that do very little damage.
Small hole= small blood trail.
Yes I have seen deer run a long ways when shot with larger calibers. This is the exception and not the rule in MY experience.
As far as my statistics, the proof is in the pudding.
I have the data written down in our clubs log book.
Shot distance, tracking distance, animal size, animal sex, caliber used, deer recovered ( yes or no). Etc.
20 deer shot with the calibers I mentioned before.
18 fall into one of the 3 categories I mentioned in my previous post.
I will provide more detailed data when I put my hands on the log book.
EmbarkChief
Member
Wow, in regards to the .243 my experience is the complete opposite of PCBuckHunter's.
I'm 39 years old, I shot my first White Tail at the age of 10. I have taken at minimum two deer a season since that time with the most being seven in single year. Up until 15 years ago all those deer were taken with my fathers .243 Model 70. I only lost one animal, bad shot on my part (I was 13). I'd say only a very small handful, maybe 6?, were not bang flops. We always used at least an 80 grain bullet and used head and neck shots. That rifle is the only "deer rifle" my father owns, Lord only knows how many deer he has taken with it and his results directly mirror mine. This is my results with Texas White Tail, 180-75 lbs.
I'm 39 years old, I shot my first White Tail at the age of 10. I have taken at minimum two deer a season since that time with the most being seven in single year. Up until 15 years ago all those deer were taken with my fathers .243 Model 70. I only lost one animal, bad shot on my part (I was 13). I'd say only a very small handful, maybe 6?, were not bang flops. We always used at least an 80 grain bullet and used head and neck shots. That rifle is the only "deer rifle" my father owns, Lord only knows how many deer he has taken with it and his results directly mirror mine. This is my results with Texas White Tail, 180-75 lbs.
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