AR15 calibers for hogs, what's the big deal?

[Flintknapper]

It works farther than 50-100yrds, but you're right, it's NOT a 45-70. The Socom gets close to factory/standard/SAAMI level 45-70 loads, close enough it's fair most guys call it the same, but only with the lighter bullets. Once you start talking about the heavyweights, the large case 45-70 starts walking away from the Socom, and if you give yourself the opportunity to load proper 45-70 loads in a Marlin, it leaves the 458socom in the dust.

But it's still plenty potent. A 300-350grn bullet leaving the barrel at 1700-1800fps will flatten any deer it hits, way farther than most guys can hit it. Standard Hornady Leverevolution 325FTX in the 45-70 killed a buck for me at 250yrds (30" drop), leaving a Marlin Guide Gun at 1790fps. I haven't taken anything with the SOCOM at that range, yet, but I can shoot the same bullet at almost the same speed...

^^^^^^^^^ Exactly right on all points. Good post Sir!

 

[CraigC]

Well, you WERE comparing calibers. The .45-70 is a 7 mag with a big bullet, as energy goes.

Good Lord man, you're comparing a sledgehammer to an air nailer. The .45-70 can be used to great effect on the largest critters. The 7mm is at its limit with elk and moose. Hence the folly of using energy as a gauge. It just doesn't work.

You see, it is well known that a .45 Colt at 25,000 psi with the right powder can perform right with the .44 magnum at 35,000 psi. The deal is, and I've read this, the .45 Colt has more surface area to work on for that pressure than does the .44 mag because it's .451" vs .429" in diameter. Think of boring out an engine, what it does for torque.

It's widely "believed" but that doesn't make it so. The above is mostly misinformation, fueled by myth, borne out of an outdated 30yr old article. You need the full 32,000psi for the .45Colt to even get to the .44Mag's ballpark but it still falls at least 100fps short.

It also has more to do with greater powder capacity than bearing surface.

The owner of the hog hunting ranch I go to doesn't like the .300 Blackout, he said he's seen some hogs shot to literally no effect with them.

Probably because they used the wrong bullet. Most factory subsonic loads use bullets designed for full speed out of 300Mag's and they don't expand out of the .300BO. With the right bullet, the BO does very well.

As to 300 BO, imho, it's all gimmick and niche.

It might be a niche but it's not a gimmick. We cannot forget the fact that its whole purpose is suppressor use. For that, it works very well. It even does an admirable job with supersonic loads, with double the mass of your typicall .223 bullet.

 

[RPRNY]

Good Lord man, you're comparing a sledgehammer to an air nailer. The .45-70 can be used to great effect on the largest critters. The 7mm is at its limit with elk and moose. Hence the folly of using energy as a gauge. It just doesn't work.



It's widely "believed" but that doesn't make it so. The above is mostly misinformation, fueled by myth, borne out of an outdated 30yr old article. You need the full 32,000psi for the .45Colt to even get to the .44Mag's ballpark but it still falls at least 100fps short.

It also has more to do with greater powder capacity than bearing surface.



Probably because they used the wrong bullet. Most factory subsonic loads use bullets designed for full speed out of 300Mag's and they don't expand out of the .300BO. With the right bullet, the BO does very well.



It might be a niche but it's not a gimmick. We cannot forget the fact that its whole purpose is suppressor use. For that, it works very well. It even does an admirable job with supersonic loads, with double the mass of your typicall .223 bullet.

I take your point on 300 BO. It is niche and, in that very small niche, does well. The gimmickry is in the marketing rather than the value of the cartridge.

However, your points above that are illogical and contradictory. You cannot on the one hand make the point you made about the 45-70 and the 7mm Mag and then make the exact opposite argument about the 45 Colt and 44 Mag! .451 / 300 grs need not travel at the same speed as .429 / 240 grs to do more damage. Hence the folly of using velocity as a gauge. It just doesn't work. ;-)

 

[CraigC]

I don't pay attention to marketing but judge based on merit. That niche has been growing. Note the proliferation of suppressor manufacturers and the huge push before the rules change last July. If the hearing protection act gets passed, that "niche" won't be a niche at all.

Terminally speaking, the .44Mag and .45Colt are interchangeable. The 7mm and .45-70 are not, far from it.

Who's using velocity as a gauge? Who's comparing 240gr .44 loads to 300gr .45 loads???

 

[MCgunner]

It's widely "believed" but that doesn't make it so. The above is mostly misinformation, fueled by myth, borne out of an outdated 30yr old article. You need the full 32,000psi for the .45Colt to even get to the .44Mag's ballpark but it still falls at least 100fps short.

Not in my experience. It is powder dependent, of course. I've found L'il Gun to outperform 2400 in .45 Colt by a wide margin. 2.0 grains BELOW max in the .45 produces 1382 ft lbs from a 7" Contender. From a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk it produces 1100+ ft lbs. That's .44 mag territory while being 2 grains below max.

If you wanna go after the big five in Africa with a hot .45-70, be my guest. I hope you have a good PH with a double rifle in something serious, though.

 

[CraigC]

In order for this to work, I need bullet weights and velocities, not foot pounds. Any discussion of energy makes my eyes glaze over because it is a completely useless number.

All of the African Big Five have been taken with handguns. You think the .45-70 is somehow less effective? Let me guess, more crap about foot pounds? What do you think these are for?

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=GC4570PP


And yes, in dangerous game hunting ALL PH's are going to be armed with a heavy rifle. Whether the client has a handgun or a .600Nitro is irrelevant. NOBODY goes after dangerous game planning on relying on the PH to finish their work. It is merely an insurance policy.

 

[MCgunner]

In order for this to work, I need bullet weights and velocities, not foot pounds. Any discussion of energy makes my eyes glaze over because it is a completely useless number.

All of the African Big Five have been taken with handguns. You think the .45-70 is somehow less effective? Let me guess, more crap about foot pounds? What do you think these are for?

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=GC4570PP


And yes, in dangerous game hunting ALL PH's are going to be armed with a heavy rifle. Whether the client has a handgun or a .600Nitro is irrelevant. NOBODY goes after dangerous game planning on relying on the PH to finish their work. It is merely an insurance policy.

You're not going to bait me with your attitude THIS time. I've already reported your belligerent posts.

I do hunt with a sub 100 ft lb crossbow, but it kills differently from a rifle and usually requires blood trailing. With rifles, energy does matter.

 

[CraigC]

Belligerent posts??? Ummmm, okay.

You're not being "baited". This is a discussion. If you don't want your posts challenged with facts, don't post. There's nothing at all heated about this discussion, unless you make it that way.

Here are some actual facts gleaned from testing that was published in a book about hunting revolvers. These are all max loads, tested in identical guns. Note the bullet weights and velocities.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I have to convert velocities to energy properly compare 'em.

You should like the .45 colt.....bigger bullet.

 

[CraigC]

Well, I have to convert velocities to energy properly compare 'em.

Then you're measuring with the wrong yardstick and the .45 loses big time due to lower velocity for a given bullet weight. That's the problem with energy, it exaggerates the importance of the least important factor, velocity, while trivializing the most important factors. Bullet weight, diameter, construction and in the case of cast bullets or copper/bronze solids, nose shape and meplat diameter. The .45 doesn't penetrate less because it produces less energy. It penetrates less because the greater surface area of the bullet is affected with greater drag as it passes through tissue. Making up for the discrepancy in energy with more velocity won't alter the results. Energy simply doesn't tell us anything useful and we can have a more productive and enlightening discussion without even mentioning it.

You should like the .45 colt.....bigger bullet.

I "like" them all. If I didn't, I wouldn't own 8 .45Colts and a .454Casull. I wouldn't have recently bought a Freedom Arms and commit to spending $700 on new grips.

Only matters if the meplat is actually bigger. It's often not. Note that while nominal bullet diameter is 0.022" larger, the 360gr .45's meplat is only 0.015" bigger than the .44's 355gr, which penetrated deeper.

 

[MCgunner]

Note, but I don't care to get into yet another argument of Fackler vs Courtney, ballistic pressure waves, etc. I've ignored a poster and am moving back to the topic just so everyone knows.

You guys have convinced me that the .458 SOCOM has big advantages. I guess the round is fatter than most AR rounds if it does have more powder volume, must take a different magazine and such. I have been told that brass for it is ridiculously expensive. That alone convinces me I don't need it. But, I see that it can have big advantages over .223 or any other chambering. I have other rifles if I want more power, though. If I were dedicated to the AR platform and nothing else, the SOCOM would be on the list of wants, though I don't wanna spend that much on brass.

I've seen ads for ARs chambered in 7.62x39. I kinda like that caliber, a .30-30 light, but more horsepower than a .300 BLK. It'll push a 154 grain (cheap Wolf ammo) out of my 20" SKS at 2200 fps and is more accurate than any other ammo I've tried, to boot. I've not broken out my dies for that caliber since I discovered this 154 grain stuff. I have tested it twice on my other place, worked great with a shoulder hit. Pigs were under 200 lbs, though. Ranges were 50 yards. I suppose I COULD rig the scope mount back on my SKS rifle, but nah, don't really wanna do that, either. I can clamp that laser light on any of my 1" scope tubes if I need more power. I don't think .308 will bounce off a pig, let alone 7mm magnum. But, I really think my .223 handload at the ranges I'll be shooting at night and pigs 200 lbs or less will do the trick and I'm itching to try when the boogers come back. I've only been seeing one come to my feeder lately and he takes hiatuses of 2 or 3 days at a time. A month ago, I was getting a dozen in a pack every other night, usually at 3AM of course, when I really wanna be sleeping. I guess I'm just not a dedicated enough pig hunter. At least I trapped a couple of the little ones and have pork in the freezer.

 

[CraigC]

Note, but I don't care to get into yet another argument of Fackler vs Courtney, ballistic pressure waves, etc. I've ignored a poster and am moving back to the topic just so everyone knows.

What are you even talking about??? I see you can't handle a losing battle and just take this as your concession speech.

 

[Walkalong]

Enough.