"I don't know anyone that would stand in front of...."

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LookAtYou

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"Yea, I don't know anyone who would stand in front of my .25 ACP".
(Btw, just an example. Insert any caliber you want or whatever, but you get the point).

What's your opinion on this often touted ideology, if that's the correct word to use? Here's mine (kinda long).

You're sitting at a table eating lunch at a cafe. You're relaxed, enjoying yourself. A 16 year old girl walks up to you, and asks for permission to pinch the crud out of you, breaking the skin and causing bleeding. And then, will pour some 91% alcohol on the small wound. Would you agree, and say "Sure, go for it!"? No? Why not? 99.999999999 % chance it's not gonna kill you, it's not a major injury at all, it'll suck for a little bit, and then you go about your day. I can tell you why I, and anyone in their right mind would say no. People (in their right mind) do not want to be subject to abuse, pain, trauma, or anything negative in general, especially physically. But lets go back to my example. The girl asks to pinch the crud out of you, breaking the skin, and then pouring alcohol on the wound. You refuse, right?

Ok, now, on the basis of you refusing that happening to you, does that mean a pinch and alcohol is an extremely effective weapon against an attacker? So going forward, anyone who disputes that method of self defense, ask them to let you do it, and if they refuse, it shows..... What? And that's just a pinch, how about letting a 15 year old, 140lb male punch you in the nose. Why not? It's just a young, lightweight kid, not like you have to worry about getting dropped, KO'd, or dying (in general).

**Just because something SUCKS to be subject to, in which causing most people to not wanna have it happen to them, whether it be a pinch, slap, punch, etc., doesn't mean it's effective, optimal, or even reasonable.**
 
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Excellent point here. I wouldn't want to stand in front of my grandkid with a homemade bow and arrow and sharpened stick for an arrow.

More critically, this line is used to debunk critique of "lesser" calibers for SD. (chiefly the .380)

In that I regard I would regard the .380 as potentially lethal and thus render the same objection to "standing in front of it".

Would I much LESS dane to stand in front of a .45ACP? - yes sir, BUT, dead is dead however you arrive there.
 
LookAtYou said:
"Yea, I don't know anyone who would stand in front of my .25 ACP".
Click to expand...

I mostly hear that on forums that specialize in non-centerfire firearms.

One could reply and ask if perhaps they would be willing to let you strike their shooting hand with a 32 oz. ball peen hammer or with a ball bearing launched by a sling shot?

Not me, thanks. I'll pass.
 
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Pain is a wonderful disincentive.....to those who do not want to experience it.

If the incentive outweighs the disincentive, the only thing that will stop someone....is disabling their body so they are physically incapable of completing their actions.

I don't want to get pepper sprayed in the face. But if all I had to do to get a million dollars was get past a person armed with pepper spray, my eyes and throat would be stinging and I'd be a millionaire. Others may be willing to run that gauntlet against someone armed with a .22 or a .25, or a. 380. Some would probably be willing to try against an opponent armed with an M4, because some people might actually believe they can dodge automatic fire and get rich quick. Some people are crazy.
 
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WrongHanded said:
Pain is a wonderful disincentive.....to those who do not want to experience it.

If the incentive outweighs the disincentive, the only thing that will stop someone....is disabling their body so they are physically incapable of complete their actions.

I don't want to get pepper sprayed in the face. But if all I had to do to get a million dollars was get past a person armed with pepper spray, my eyes and throat would be stinging and I'd be a millionaire. Others may be willing to run that gauntlet against someone armed with a .22 or a .25, or a. 380. Some would probably be willing to try against an opponent armed with an M4, because some people might actually believe they can dodge automatic fire and get rich quick. Some people are crazy.
Click to expand...
For 30 million, I'd 100% take a .25 FMJ to my left (non-dominant) hand.
 
I wouldn’t volunteer to stand in front of any gun. That being said, I’d prefer a bit more energy transfer to my I tended target that that which a .25 ACP provides, especially up here in the north where it gets pretty cold and penetration through layers is a must.

But, I won’t go beyond my comment above or get into an argument as to if the .25 ACP is a viable self defense round. To each his own.
 
If you confine yourself to close range shooting, then even the lowly .25 and .22 (LR or Magnum) can serve as self-defense weapons. The problem is that you have to let the opponent get far too close for those guns to be really effective. The advantage of the .25 over the .22s is centerfire reliability. The problem with the .25 is the under-powered loads available.
A .32 ACP does slightly better but it too suffers from under-powered factory ammunition.
Thankfully, because of the desire for compact concealability and light weight firearms, manufacturers have stepped up to the plate and "tweaked" .380 ammo to the point that it has a good chance of doing its job. I reloaded for my .380 for many years, making 3 types of ammo, a 90 gr. JHP, a 95 gr. SJFP, and a 100 gr. FMJRN. These would be loaded at a near max charge of Win. 231 to get as much velocity as possible from this short barrel.
When I tested the FMJs on a cinder block (8"x8"x16" - 2 hole) at about 20', it only took 2-3 shots to shatter the wall of the block and have it collapse.
These smaller calibers DO work but at ever closer range to you.
 
I don't want to get shot (again) by ANYTHING, in ANY part of my body. But if am carrying a pistol to defend myself with, its going to be a 9mm or bigger, because I think that is the smallest caliber that I am most confident is the most likely to efficiently address my problem. Other things like the size and weight of the pistol, controllability, price and availability of ammunition also come into play. Also my experiences with other calibers from various tasks I have used them for in the past. I think a 22 or 25 is a poor choice, and even though survivability (in theory) after being hit by one or more of these things is more likely that a similarly placed dirty harry magnum round, these poor rounds can still kill, and definitely have the potential to severely injure a person.
Also, don't dismiss "smaller people" when it comes to their potential abilities to really mess you up. You never know what someone is capable of, so don't judge a book by its cover. This lesson is learned daily on the streets and in dojos and boxing rings every day. One of my training partners is a 125 pound female with excellent boxing techniques. When she lands a punch, it hurts and you don't want her to do it again. Without gloves, it would obviously be worse. A "little guy" may have some serious skills, or intend to take it to the next level with some sort of weapon. If you want some more examples of the abilities of smaller people, look at some of the "twerps" participating in amateur fights on streetbeefs on youtube.
 
Pat Riot said:
For me the question isn’t “Would you stand in front of it?” the question is “Would you stand behind it?”.
Click to expand...
Exactly ! If the intended purpose is self defense, the .25 ACP is a poor choice. Anyone who doesn't recognize that knows very little about the factors needed to keep yourself safe. That said, you go with what you have, which makes that caliber better than a stern voice. During the civil war for example there were a good number of S&W # 1's carried. This is of course a gun chambered in .22 BP short. They were not a primary weapon, but they were useful as a back up when your rifle was empty, and your cap & ball revolver (if you had one) was also in need of a reloading.
Likely more of a deterrent then ,than they would be today, as even superficial wounds at that time, could lead to stronger consequences. It was what they had, and was useful.
 
Two thoughts immediately come to mind, regarding the .25 ACP.

It's better than nothing.

Would YOU want to get shot with one?
 
Pat Riot said:
For me the question isn’t “Would you stand in front of it?” the question is “Would you stand behind it?”.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was going to post. It doesn’t hurt me at all to shoot a 9mm or 40cal pistol so I’ll pass on lower powered cartridges.
 
I have killed lots of stuff with things that were less than ideal for the job.
 
I know of 1 guy who wouldn’t be bothered by standing in front of a 25acp again. Yes, again, and I have seen scars and read the newspaper article. Essentially he had a girlfriend that he didn’t know was married, and husband came home during their escapades. Apparently he stood there and took the full magazine on the breast bone and the ER docs plucked out 6 bullets. Somebody like that messes up the scenario altogether.
 
FL-NC said:
I don't want to get shot (again) by ANYTHING, in ANY part of my body. But if am carrying a pistol to defend myself with, its going to be a 9mm or bigger, because I think that is the smallest caliber that I am most confident is the most likely to efficiently address my problem. Other things like the size and weight of the pistol, controllability, price and availability of ammunition also come into play. Also my experiences with other calibers from various tasks I have used them for in the past. I think a 22 or 25 is a poor choice, and even though survivability (in theory) after being hit by one or more of these things is more likely that a similarly placed dirty harry magnum round, these poor rounds can still kill, and definitely have the potential to severely injure a person.
Also, don't dismiss "smaller people" when it comes to their potential abilities to really mess you up. You never know what someone is capable of, so don't judge a book by its cover. This lesson is learned daily on the streets and in dojos and boxing rings every day. One of my training partners is a 125 pound female with excellent boxing techniques. When she lands a punch, it hurts and you don't want her to do it again. Without gloves, it would obviously be worse. A "little guy" may have some serious skills, or intend to take it to the next level with some sort of weapon. If you want some more examples of the abilities of smaller people, look at some of the "twerps" participating in amateur fights on streetbeefs on youtube.
Click to expand...
I completely agree with the the little guy thing, as I can definitely be considered one, at 5'7 and 140 Lbs. Most men, and a lot of women too, are bigger than me. Yet people are always surprised by my physical strength/power.
tark said:
Two thoughts immediately come to mind, regarding the .25 ACP.

It's better than nothing.

Would YOU want to get shot with one?
Click to expand...
See, I don't subscribe to the "It's better than nothing" ideology either. I want the most effective I can carry. A stern yell, up to a stern push, up to a slap in the face, up to..... It just keeps going. It's a lot that's technically better than nothing, that bluntly, sucks as far as proven, repeatable success.

No one here chooses the minimum caliber they feel ok with, along with the minimum, lowest power ammo they're just barely ok with (unless you only want to shoot low power loadings, which would then make it the max you're ok with). Usually people, and for obvious reasons, pick the LARGEST caliber they can shoot well, the BEST ammo they can find, the BEST quality holsters, etc. The same community that puts so much emphasis on "A person that's shot in the heart 4 times will use the last 30 secs of their life to trudge through it, keep shooting at you and try his darndest to take you and your puppy out" type scenarios, which could be real, but also is clearly extreme, all of a sudden goes to "Whatever you have bro".

Bull.

I get it. If it's a situation where you're about to get jumped, and somehow you find a .25 ACP and that's all you have, ok. BUT, if you have ANY choice in the matter as far as what you wanna carry, what ammo you want, etc., C'mon now.

Also, I'll say this regarding getting shot. For $30 million, I'd take a .25 FMJ to my non-dominant hand. I couldn't say the same for a .40 180 Grain Winchester PDX1 Defender from an M&P40. No money, or anything else could convince me to do that.
 
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WestKentucky said:
I know of 1 guy who wouldn’t be bothered by standing in front of a 25acp again. Yes, again, and I have seen scars and read the newspaper article. Essentially he had a girlfriend that he didn’t know was married, and husband came home during their escapades. Apparently he stood there and took the full magazine on the breast bone and the ER docs plucked out 6 bullets. Somebody like that messes up the scenario altogether.
Click to expand...
Did the guy really have a choice in whether he was gonna take that mag dump or not?
 
I hope to never be paid $30 million for any reason. That means I lost something I didn’t want to lose.

I would think a small caliber wound to the weak hand might not pay $30 million but I’m no expert on these things. Seems like a $2 million kind of thing.
 
LookAtYou said:
See, I don't subscribe to the "It's better than nothing" ideology either.
Click to expand...
Sooo....if you had to defend your life and your only choices were a .25ACP or nothing.....you would choose nothing because the .25 really isn't better than nothing? I'm not advocating that any .25 ACP pistol is adequate for self defense.....but it's better than nothing.
 
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