I thought Glocks were drop safe?

[MarcusWendt]

http://gothamist.com/2008/02/09/misfiring_cop_w.php

February 9, 2008
Misfiring Cop Who Hit Toddler Attempts to Shed Light on the Matter
Patrick Venetek, the cop whose service weapon wound up shooting through the ceiling of his downstairs neighbors' apartment and striking an 18-month-old's arm, gave further details on how the incident occurred. Perhaps to the relief of Porcellini's six brothers and sisters, Venetek has been stripped of his badge and gun at this time and is on modified duty.

Apparently, Ventek was going to start cleaning his 9 mm semi-automatic pistol in the dwindling natural light of a winter afternoon (natural light because Con Ed had shut off his electricity). Venetek placed the pistol on the table where he was going to clean it. Hunger struck first and he went to make a sandwich in the kitchen. Returning to the table with his sandwich, and possibly because of the dim light, he bumped into the table forcefully enough to knock the weapon to the ground, where it discharged, sending a bullet downstairs, through the floor-ceiling and through the arm of little Jonathan Porcellini, who was sitting in his playpen.

Venetek's brother, who shares the apartment with Patrick, described the situation as a freak accident and explained why their electricity was off: "On a cop's salary, we're f---ing poor. I clean sewers and he's a cop. Rent was more important [than electricity]." Venetek has only been on the force for two years, and many have complained about the low starting salaries of NYPD rookies. Amidst the piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts Thursday night, police investigators sought to figure out exactly what happened.

The boy's father, Justin Porcellini, was less than impressed with any rationalizations, contemplating that for just a few inches, he could have lost his son, instead of bringing him home later Thursday night from Brookdale University Hospital. "This is a city employee who didn't take his job seriously. It could've been worse. We're lucky nothing else happened." Jonathan will have to make daily return trips to the hospital to have his wound cleaned and will eventually require plastic surgery to fully repair the bullet wound's damage.

The Porcellinis have already contacted a lawyer and are considering legal action against Venetek, an Army veteran who served in a unit that guarded the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (after reports of abuse at the facility were exposed), and also against the city. Although, off-duty at the time, the News spoke to legal experts who said Venetek could be found guilty of negligence and the city could be held liable for damages.

Photo of Patrick Venetek via the Daily News

 

[SAWBONES]

Oh.
Sure.
Another person of dubious veracity whose gun somehow "went off" in the context of "cleaning it."

The damn things, seems like they all do that.

Doesn't matter that the firing pin safety plus the drop safety on Glocks makes such essentially impossible, that's how it happened. No matter that drop tests of Glocks have never resulted in one firing. "Patrick Venetek" says it happened to him.

 

[whatbrick]

It doesn't mention what manufacture of firearm he had, though a Glock would be a good guess for a PD. So assuming it was a Glock, then either:

1) his weapon was not in proper working order, which would be rare unless he (or someone else) messed with it, or

2) He's lying to cover his posterior.

My vote would go to "2" being more likely than to "1" in most cases.

Even if it was a malfunction of the weapon itself, he is still guilty of negligence (if not by the law, then definitely by proper firearm safety etiquette) since he left a loaded firearm lying around. If his case of the munchies was greater than his desire to clean his weapon, then it should have been unloaded (mag out, chamber empty, slide locked back) or kept secured in his duty-rig well out of the way.

In my opinion he should be cleaning sewers with his brother until he can gather enough funds to take some basic firearm safety courses...after he has paid for the child's medical bills.

 

[R&J]

From Answers.com:

Service Weapons:
Officers of the NYPD are issued Sidearms with DAO capability. This list includes both Pistols and Revolvers, which includes SIG P226s, S&W 5946s, and Glock 19s (modified version which has a custom 12 pound trigger). Some officers may still be carrying S&W .38 Special Revolvers.

*****

Pretty sloppy for a so called professional.

The parents will, of course, sue, and the county will pay.

Could've been much, much worse...

I would dismiss the cop!

--Ray

 

[Navy joe]

Where does it say it was a Glock? Probably is based on that being the most predominant NYPD weapon and probably because they go off when you pull the trigger while disassembling to clean. Story is pure BS no matter the gun type. Got no lights but empty beer cans and cigs all over? Yeah, those are free. The family smells like lying wouldn't be out of character. Glad the little one survived.

 

[brigadier]

Even if it was a malfunction of the weapon itself, he is still guilty of negligence (if not by the law, then definitely by proper firearm safety etiquette) since he left a loaded firearm lying around. If his case of the munchies was greater than his desire to clean his weapon, then it should have been unloaded (mag out, chamber empty, slide locked back) or kept secured in his duty-rig well out of the way.

I am with you on this. In the military, servicing your weapon is No.1 priority. HOWEVER, though I can see the need to somehow deal with the medical bills, I wouldn't torment the guy for the mistake. Sure, if he has no remorse, then I can understand the idea to really go after him but overall, people who make costly mistakes that hurt others are usually pretty torn up about them.
Regardless how it happened, it was obviously a mistake. If he shot the kid on purpose, then he must have had x-Ray vision or have been a lucky shot. At the same time, that kids medical bill is nothing pretty.
My first guess would be that if it was indeed a Glock, then he probably accidentally discharged it while taking it down. If he actually did that, then it would be ideal to point the finger at Glock, since from a comprehensive point of view, it is a dangerous system and they already know that it results in a considerable amount of shooting accidents. Not to encourage people to be sue happy but if that IS the case, we have a situation where someone got hurt as result of a KNOWN issue with Glocks that leads to accidents at a considerable proportion which Glock has ignored to date. I guess what I am getting at is someone needs to get their attention. Not saying it isn't (mechanically) sufficient, but it doesn't float well with human error and comprehension. My experience in the life taking/sacrificing world is that you fix your errors when they are discovered. Glocks behavior reminds me of MRI pretending that the .50AE Desert Eagle is a fully reliable gun and problem free despite the fact that the stock Jennings 9 beat it in the California trials.

 

[easyg]

...and possibly because of the dim light, he bumped into the table forcefully enough to knock the weapon to the ground, where it discharged, sending a bullet downstairs,...

I don't believe this story at all.
Glocks have been torture tested and drop tested thousands of times and have never been known to discharge when dropped.

Amidst the piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts Thursday night, police investigators sought to figure out exactly what happened.

They can afford cigs and beer but they can't afford electricity???
Sounds like they definitely have their priorities screwed up.

My first guess would be that if it was indeed a Glock, then he probably accidentally discharged it while taking it down. If he actually did that, then it would be ideal to point the finger at Glock, since from a comprehensive point of view, it is a dangerous system and they already know that it results in a considerable amount of shooting accidents.

Not to encourage people to be sue happy but if that IS the case, we have a situation where someone got hurt as result of a KNOWN issue with Glocks that leads to accidents at a considerable proportion which Glock has ignored to date.

There's nothing dangerous about the "Glock system" and there are no "KNOWN issues" with Glocks.

Just keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

And when you're going to clean your pistol, the first thing you do, regardless of pistol brand, is remove the magazine and clear the chamber.
They don't just go off by themselves.

 

[fletcher]

It was one of two things:

1) Failed to unload before disassembly.
2) The infamous "drop-n-grab" resulted in a ND.

 

[RNB65]

Smells like CYA to me.
.

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1. The guy's story sounds like he's trying to hide the fact that operator error was involved.

 

[pbearperry]

No way did the Glock go off on its own.The guy is a moron.When was the last time you thought about cleaning your gun in the dark?
I bet the guy was contemplating suicide and got cold feet.

 

[buzz_knox]

Unless the weapon has a manufacturing defect or maintenance was disregarded, he's a liar.

They can afford cigs and beer but they can't afford electricity???
Sounds like they definitely have their priorities screwed up.

Exactly In law enforcement circles, that's called a clue! It never ceases to amaze me how people will complain about lousy pay, the dole not being big enough, cost of health care, etc., when they are somehow able to swing big screen TVs, alcohol, cigarettes, multiple cars, and other crap that is certainly not required for subsistence.

 

[Anna's Dad]

Got no lights but empty beer cans and cigs all over?

I had the exact same thought. I had a -little- sympathy for the cop (although the story doesn't smell right) until I read the bit about the "piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts".

 

[Deanimator]

He's lying. The whole story smells like Lincoln Park Lagoon.

 

[Mainsail]

…it would be ideal to point the finger at Glock, since from a comprehensive point of view, it is a dangerous system and they already know that it results in a considerable amount of shooting accidents…

Point the finger at Glock? So the pistol is responsible? In what state of total lunacy is that reasonable? Are you working for the Brady organization? Should we reopen the issue of lawsuits against firearms manufacturers because some people are too damn stupid to use them safely? The Glock is absolutely safe when used properly; any unintentional or negligent discharge is 100% due to the failure of the person holding it. I owned a Glock for about 17 years and never had any issues with its system.

…we have a situation where someone got hurt as result of a KNOWN issue with Glocks that leads to accidents at a considerable proportion which Glock has ignored to date…

No, we an issue where someone (the off duty cop), through his own negligence, discharged his pistol into the ceiling. There was nothing ‘accidental’ about it. If someone discharges any pistol, especially a glock, and didn’t intend for it to happen, they have only themselves to blame. They are deficient, not the pistol.

 

[PirateRadio]

Mainsail, I agree with you totally.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Gothamist is a collection of blogs.
Here's the Post article.

He's been pretty much relieved of duty, and a lawsuit will be forthcoming.

Instead of defending Glock, people who live in apartments or close suburban housing should take note of this incident when formulating Home Defense plans. If you're not an NYPD cop, you're talking about a civil suit that would ruin you financially and likely criminal charges as well.
More importantly, it's just wrong for someone to get shot in their own home while minding their own business because of a bonehead who can't remember the 4 rules or think critically.
Every incident like this is fuel for the Brady bonfire.
Maybe he was poor, but it doesn't cost a penny to be responsible and safe with your weapons.

 

[rockinrussky]

The only 'issue' that Glocks have is that if someone doesn't use the 4 rules of proper firearm handling then an ND may happen, just like with any other firearm. If there are people (LEOs and others) who forget to properly clear their Glock before pulling the trigger as part of the takedown procedure, well there's not much any of us can do about that :banghead:

 

[strat81]

I had a -little- sympathy for the cop (although the story doesn't smell right) until I read the bit about the "piles of stacked empty beer cans and cigarette butts".

Agreed. And in NYC, residential garbage collection is FREE. You do have to pay for the garbage can, though.

If you're not an NYPD cop, you're talking about a civil suit that would ruin you financially and likely criminal charges as well.

Yup. And you can bet that the NYPD will fight this vigorously since it would be *very bad* if their standard issue Glock 19 was deemed unsafe.

I own a Glock. I like it, but it's not perfect. Glock haters lament the lack of a manually operated safety. However, I have never heard anyone claim that Glocks are not drop safe.

http://www.glock.com/english/pistols_adv03.htm

The GLOCK firing pin safety is a solid hardened steel pin which, in the secured state, blocks the firing pin channel, rendering the igniting of a chambered cartridge by the firing pin impossible. The firing pin safety is only pushed upward to release the firing pin for firing when the trigger is pulled and the safety is pushed up through the backward movement of the trigger bar. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the firing pin safety.

The NYPD has this gun now. They will test every which way they can, dropping it from tables, chairs, porches, roofs, trestles, moving cars, staircases... you name it. And every single time, I bet it will not fire. Then, they will pull the trigger and get a bang.

 

[Texshooter]

and there is NO possible way that this mechanical device (glock or whatever) could have malfunctioned?

It HAS to be this guys fault?

There is NO way in hell that judgement can wait until all the facts are known?

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

There's no one here who doesn't know that I back other cops anytime I see them taking unjust flak. But, if this story is accurate (and they NEVER are) then he's screwed. Barring a real life,we-can-prove-it and-here's-the-broken-part malfunction, he's trying to cover himself. He still a rookie and when he screwed up, however he did it, he lied about it.

Possibly.

 

[buzz_knox]

It HAS to be this guys fault?

Glocks have many issues, real and imagined. Discharging due to being dropped from a table/shelf/etc isn't among them. It doesn't HAVE to be this guy's fault, but if you bet on his being a lying screwup, your money would be safe.

 

[Firepower!]

Now I am quite confused as I carry my GLOCK with live round when I go out. I need to get to the bottom of this since I dont want to injure myself or anyone else.

BUT I agree with the fellow members that there is no mention of Glock in the article.

Pile of beer cans does not help here as well!

Well I am going to drop my Glock from a few different place to check my piece out for myself. But I dont see how this entire thing is realted to Glock, it could have been other issues.

There are always malfunctions but this time this sounds like a cooked up stuff.

 

[buzz_knox]

Now I am quite confused as I carry my GLOCK with live round when I go out. I need to get to the bottom of this since I dont want to injure myself or anyone else.

Don't pull the trigger when you don't want to, and you'll be fine. I screwed up once and put my Glock in some luggage on a bed to conceal it while staying at a friend's place. The muzzle was in a safe direction, but it was still loaded. I forgot the Glock was there and ended up flinging it across the room while moving the luggage. It was a concrete floored basement and the Glock hit hard enough for a corner of the slide to peen the floor. No discharge, no light firing pin strike on the primer, nothing. Wipe the dust off the Glock (which was undamaged) and only the chunk of missing floor evidenced the event.

That anecdotal experience can be added to all the others (including Glocks dropped intentionally and unintentionally from planes) along with the official tests.

It's theoretically possible that some defect could cause a Glock drop-safety mechanism to fail, but it's probably in the same likelihood of a 1911's manual and grip safety failing at the same time and allowing a cocked and locked 1911 to discharge all on its own. It's not worth worrying about.

 

[Deanimator]

It HAS to be this guys fault?

YES, it DOES.

His story has ALL of the hallmarks of an irresponsible person who doesn't really know firearms telling a clumsy lie to evade responsibility for his own negligence.

He's got no qualified immunity for his actions and I hope the family bankrupts him. He deserves it simply for the ineptitude of his lie, nevermind the lack of character it demonstrates.