I was surprised at this...

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A lot of people get confused talking about this.

A defender should generally* shoot at the largest part of the attacker's body that can be seen ("center of mass," which is usually the center of the attacker's chest). The defender should generally keep pulling the trigger until the attacker has stopped doing whatever he was doing that made the defender shoot him in the first place. If the attacker doesn't stop after at least a few rounds have hit him in the center of his chest, the defender might instead shoot for the attacker's head, or perhaps his pelvis. All this activity frequently results in the attacker's death ... too bad, so sorry, but that's the way it is.**

When the defender deliberately shoots at the center of the attacker's chest, the reasonably expected outcome is that the attacker will probably die from it. Nevertheless, the shortcut phrase "shoot to kill" is a really, really, really, really bad way to think about this, because its usage can lead you to make some very bad mistakes.

First, legally and (in many cases) morally, the defender must stop shooting when the attacker stops being a threat. Casual or repeated use of the phrase "shoot to kill" can damage the defender's prior mindset and cripple the defender's ability to do the Right Thing under extreme stress.

Second, as others have pointed out above, using "shoot to kill" in casual conversation can really come back and bite you in the behind if you ever end up in court. With a good lawyer you might manage to overcome this, but why muddy the waters? Better to have a good shoot that looks clean too; it'll save you some money in lawyer bills.

Third, thinking in terms of "shoot to wound" vs "shoot to kill" allows people to fool themselves into believing that they can use a firearm without risk of death or permanent disabling damage to the person they shot. This is not true. Legally and practically, any time you fire a weapon at another human being -- no matter where on the other person's body you aim! -- you are using deadly force. You do not want to weaken your resolve to use this deadly force only when utterly necessary, nor do you want your brain tricking you into believing you are doing anything except using deadly force when you pull a gun. You certainly don't want to end up in court trying to explain that you didn't mean to kill the guy and wouldn't have shot if you'd known it would kill him. If you aren't fully prepared for the possibility of killing the person you're shooting, you should not be shooting at them. Period, full stop.

And finally, even if it never comes up in court, the phrase "shoot to kill" is simply bad PR for our side. Most reasonably articulate people can get exactly the same concept across to anybody who needs to know it, without sounding like a bloodthirsty fool or a violent vigilante.

pax

* "Generally" means just that; it's a rule of thumb rather than an absolute. Of course there are exceptions, situations in which you might prefer that the attacker live rather than die or situations in which the only possible shot is one that is also unlikely to kill the attacker. In such cases, some folks use the phrase "shoot to wound." This verbal shortcut describes both point of aim and intended outcome -- two things which are congruent with each other only when Murphy and Lady Luck both agree.

** Some macho types apparently believe that avoiding the phrase "shoot to kill" somehow means that one isn't mentally or emotionally prepared to kill if necessary. While untrue in most cases, it is true that some people keep a gun for defense but never, ever consider that they could literally kill another person with that gun. If you aren't willing to kill in order to save your own life or the lives of those you love, you should not be carrying a gun. It's that simple.
 
Bobby ~

Thanks. I don't think that section says anything about civil trials. The way I read it, it says that you will be reimbursed for everything related to your criminal trial (time off work, lawyer & specialist fees etc), if you are charged with something and your action is found to be justified because it was self-defense.

It's a pretty major protection, but I don't think it would stop you from being sued.

Was hoping you'd found a different one!

pax
 
Pax,

i guess it depends on whether or not the definition of "legal jeopardy" includes civil trials or not. i was under the impression that it did, but i can't find a definition of "Legal jeopardy" in the legislature's site.

Bobby
 
TrybalRage said:
And then get sued because you are not qualified to give first aid.

Depends on the state. Many states have Good Samaritan Laws.

Here is Arizona's:

ARS 32-1471. Health care provider and any other person; emergency aid; nonliability

Any...other person who renders emergency care at a public gathering or at the scene of an emergency occurrence gratuitously and in good faith shall not be liable for any civil or other damages as the result of any act or omission by such person rendering the emergency care, or as the result of any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured persons, unless such person, while rendering such emergency care, is guilty of gross negligence.
 
The law is only a guideline. You can be within the letter of the law but if a DA decides you acted with 'malice aforethought', and can convince a judge or jury of same, you're going to the big house. If you're packing with the hope and intention of a confrontation so you can shoot/kill somebody chances are you'll pay the price someday. You want a different mindset; one that avoids confrontation and conflict if at all possible. Deadly force is an option to be exercised only as a last resort.
 
One of the reasons I live in Colorado is that the criminal and/or his survivors are legally prohibited from suing people who defend themselves against their predations.

Simplifies matters quite a little bit.
 
JMusic said:
If you shoot you shoot to kill. The threat will not be stopped until the other person is either dead or unconcious. I have had several professional use of force training and some do make that comment about civil suits, but bottom line you need to justify your initial use of deadly force. I see nothing wrong with the comment.
Jim
The problem with the comment is that he expressed the right strategy, for the wrong reason.

Shooting to wound is not a good strategy. Too easy to miss if you aim for an extremity, plus as you already commented, a wound may not stop the threat. In all states that allow carrying guns for self-defense, while the language of the laws may vary slightly the bottom line is that you are NOT entitled to use deadly/lethal force unless you are in grave (or "imminent") danger of being killed or seriously injured by an assailant. Once you cross the threshold of having justification to use deadly force, you use the amount of force necessary to stop the threat. I don't think there is a single police department or private self-defense training venue in the country that teaches "shoot to wound" once it has become time to drag your shootin' iron out of the holster.
 
i've always told myself that if i'm in a position where i have to draw

In my opinion when he is faced with using deadly force those words will not be a motivation for what he does.

He's rationalizing the taking of a life. That's something he needs to do. No sense in being prepared if you're not willing. He's psyching himself up for action.

His theory matches no motivation I hold but then I don't think it has to. Freedom of speech and all that. :)
 
from what i could make of it..:rolleyes: .maybe i read too much into his way of thinking..i was beginning to equate CCW= license to kill...:eek: is that what some people with guns out there think...:banghead: then i better get my CHL soon, before they decide to up the standards..obviuosly he passed, so it shouln't be that hard..now, i do believe i might start to carry too..sheesh! i might even get the badge.:D i mean business.:evil: just the way some people think about killing someone so..what's that word i'm looking for..mhmmm.:confused: i'll keep thinking about it some more. good replies by the way, i'll definetly keep some advice as they will make good questions to bring up when i take a class. i want to know for sure.:eek:

jack's reply.."hard to justify shooting a man in the back when they run away after you draw....but 2 to the chest and 1 to the head are my preffered spots and it still leaves me 10 before i have to get my other clip..." Whew!! that's makes me feel good..dunno about dave though....uhummm.
 
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I remember when I took my CHL class that's exactly what the LEO instructer told us. Shoot to kill because if you shoot to wound, you will be sued.
 
CCW isn't a license to kill, it's tax on improving your odds to avoid being killed. I guess you could say it's a license to live. :D
 
I believe Pax has said it best. May I add that in court any terms such as shoot to kill are not what you say. My statement was meant to show that I too have heard this said. Glen your reply makes me laugh! How you came up with shooting an unarmed man with his hands in the air from my initial statement is beyond me. Frankly you focus on "Fear for my life" statements. If you do not have that "Fear" for your life or another you better keep your weapon in your pocket. But if you think shoot to stop puts a better spin on it good luck. When you point that weapon at another you are showing "Deadly intent", when you fire whether you like it or not you are using "Deadly force". My firearms courses were mostly LE courses. Shoot to kill was used commonly, how to testify (which I have done) was another school entirely.
Jim
 
I posted a thread a few days ago in general handgun discussions. It may be appropriate to read the comments and the follow ups that I gave to see how a real gunfight happens. Seldom do you have time to evaluate the situation or think about criminal or civil suits. You need to access those issues ahead of time. For those with an intrest it is titled "Hit them where it hurts."
Jim
 
I don't know if I would use those words exactly, but I am not about to shoot once, then ask the attacker if he or she gives up. Until his or her back hits the ground and he or she stops breathing, or his or her forward motion is withdrawn, or his or her weapon is dropped and his or her hands go in the air while he or she stands still, I will continue to shoot and reload if necessary.

Some people look at that as a "shoot to kill" policy, I call it a "shoot to survive" policy.

YMMV.

Judged, not carried...
 
Shoot to STOP.

If, in stopping an assailant, he dies - that's his problem. You did what you needed to stop him and save your own hide.

The problem with the "shoot to kill" mentality is: under duress, your mind will fulfill what you decided prior - which may be incredibly stupid/evil.

DA: "Mr. Doe, why did you shoot the deceased?"
You: "I shot him to stop him from acting in a way that reasonably would result in my death."
DA: "So that explains the action in the surveilance video, wherein you shot him and he fell down unconcious?"
You: "Yes."
DA: "Ok, that makes sense. ... Now explain why, when he was face-down and not moving, you proceeded to fire another 15 rounds into the back of his head?"
You: "Ummm..."
Jury: "Guilty, 2nd degree murder."
Judge: "Life."

If your mindset is "shoot to stop", you'll stop shooting when he stops attacking.
If your mindset is "shoot to kill", you may very well keep shooting long after the threat is gone.

Convicted by 12 is better than carried 6, yes, but life behind bars still sucks.

If you're sued for damages to/by your attacker, counter sue for mental anguish and being placed in a you-or-him situation. You should get more since he had the casual choice, while you didn't.
 
Yes normally you shoot to stop the attack or threat. But if I'm out and I see somebody with a bomb belt getting ready to pull the cord. Headshot no question. I'm not going to go COM, brain stem.
Perhaps that's a way to stop the attack.
 
Well I can't let this go and maybe I am wrong but shoot to stop and shoot to kill is the same thing. When you injure or kill another human being your training and the object you used comes into play. Lets say you are driving down the road in your new Ford. Out comes a pedestrian and you run over them. Now many considerations go into this, were you under the influence, what driving training have you had, speeding, was your vehicle in a safe operating condition etc. "Not once though were you trained how to use the vehicle to hurt another human being." The fact that you got into the automoblile and drove off does not in and of itself indicate deadly or lethal intent.
Now take the use a concealable handgun. In and of itself unless accidently discharged the use against another human is concidered "Deadly" or Lethal. Now here goes your training. You shoot at a man shaped target that gives you the highest scores that just happen to be the most lethal locations to shoot a human being in. You are taught to put multiple shots into the target until it is neutralized. In LE you are advised or told to use larger calibers against your assaliant because they are "more effective". Ammunition is chosen for its lethality. The military would rather wound an individual during an act of war and bullet design indicates that. IN LE and Concealed Carry again bullet design is based on lethality.
Jim
 
dpesec ~

If the only reasonable way to stop the attack is to drop the attacker in his tracks, and if the only way to do that is with a brain stem shot, then you have not "shot to kill." You shot to stop the attack.

Well I can't let this go and maybe I am wrong but shoot to stop and shoot to kill is the same thing.
JMusic ~

You're wrong. ;)

The two are not the same thing.

The reason people get confused talking about this is because they often get two very different concepts mixed up with each other.

Concept one: point of aim.
Concept two: intended consequence.

Point of aim is where you point your gun and what you do when you've got it pointed there. If there is more than one attacker, which one do you point at? Where on his body do you aim? You might point at the attacker's head, chest, pelvis, gun hand, eyeball. Do you pull the trigger right away? Or do you bark a command such as, "DON'T MOVE!!" or "DROP THAT WEAPON!"? You might not even shoot, if that is the best tactical choice. So your point of aim will vary depending upon circumstances.

But your intended consequence must never vary. If you are going to be one of the good guys, you must never shoot someone just for the purpose of killing them. That would make you a murderer. The only legal (and perhaps the only moral) justification for using deadly force is to save an innocent life, yours or someone else's. That means that the moment an innocent life is no longer in danger, the legal justification for killing another human being is gone gone gone. So your intended consequence, if you are one of the good guys, cannot ever change. You will always intend to stop the attacker from killing or maiming an innocent person.

That is the meaning of the phrase "shoot to stop." You shoot to stop the attack against innocent life.

"Shoot to kill" describes both point of aim and intended consequence in one phrase (and the intended consequence is not reliably legal).

"Shoot to stop" describes only the intended consequence and says nothing about point of aim.

pax
 
JMusic said:
Well I can't let this go and maybe I am wrong but shoot to stop and shoot to kill is the same thing. When you injure or kill another human being your training and the object you used comes into play. Lets say you are driving down the road in your new Ford. Out comes a pedestrian and you run over them. Now many considerations go into this, were you under the influence, what driving training have you had, speeding, was your vehicle in a safe operating condition etc. "Not once though were you trained how to use the vehicle to hurt another human being." The fact that you got into the automoblile and drove off does not in and of itself indicate deadly or lethal intent.
The distinction is intent, and legally it does make a difference.

Your car analogy is irrelevent. An automobile can kill, but the laws of no state define the act of driving a motor vehicle as "use of deadly force." Once you pull that trigger (in some states merely by drawing the firearm from its holster), you are employing deadly force. You know that, we know that, the police know that, the judge knows that. The jury may need to have it explained to them, and a "jury of your peers" does not mean that a rocket scientist gets to have his jury comprised of Ph.D.s in astro-physics.

The laws under which we employ deadly force in self-defense allow us to use deadly force for ... self-defense. Not "to kill" but "to defend." Yes, the consequence of that use of deadly force may well be that the assailant dies. But your intent, at the time and in court later, has to be "to defend," not "to kill."
 
Pax thanks for the comments. I'm new to this forum and maybe I don't quite understand what we are talking here. My assumptions are that the attacker is armed with a firearm. I believe the original post was something about trainers saying you are better off killing the assailant than having them testify against you. Again my assumptions are that your life is in danger with someone pointing a firearm at you. The next comment I read was a shoot to wound. Thus my comment when you shoot you shoot to kill meaning if you think deadly force is not necessary then you are using the wrong tool to stop the assault. We will have to agree to disagree on shoot to stop and shoot to kill is different. I say the act of shooting unless courts have changed since I worked LE is a deadly expectation. Shooting a gun out of someone's hand in my opinion was a mistake made by the Columbus Sniper. It was not an extrodinary shot at 65 yards for one, but it set expectations that in my opinion is dangerous for LE. With that one shot the public now had an example of non deadly force with the use of a firearm. That was wrong. The 308 bullet could have easily banked into the subject killing him or a bystander. Was deadly force authorized when that shot was made. I'm from that area and I was never able to get a direct answer. If it was not and it went bad well you know what outcome to expect. Pax if you have ever looked down the barrel of a gun or tried to save a victim your thoughts are not shoot to stop. You shoot to kill and kill quick. Again maybe my concept is dated but if this is the direction the courts and LE is going I don't understand.
Thanks for your time and explanations
Jim
 
Ok Hawkmoon it seems the opinions from obvious experts here is you do not shoot to kill. I'm far from a cowboy here and it sounds like pudent advise that is evidently current words of wisdom. I have a prosecutor friend who I have not talked to in a while. This will give me a good reason to contact him. Thanks for the debate and your time.
Jim
 
Deadin hit this dead on!


Prosecutor: "Sir, did you shoot to kill Mr. Smith?"

Your answer: "No sir, I shot to stop Mr. Smith. I regret that he died."

Anything beyond this and you could be in deep s**t.


I would only add the following. A jury may better see your side if you told them you were so scared you P****d your pants:eek:
 
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