Ideas for a General Purpose Rifle (GPR) chambered in 308

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"General Purpose Rifle is really best filled, in my opinion, by the Main Battle Rifle"


Bring one to many states (Say,,, Pennsylvania, for example) for deer hunting and see how long you last before the game wardens arrest you...... :rolleyes:

General Purpose ought to be legal almost anyplace for all legal use. Something that is not legal to hunt with is not "general purpose".


Willie

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Willie brings up a good point......which is exactly why I wouldn't hunt in a state that outlaws semiautomatic rifles.

Does your state lawmakers feel that a Fal or an M1A can somehow kill better than a 308 chambered bolt or pump action?????

Your problem's not over rifles, but over your lawmaker's lack of common sense IMO.:rolleyes:

I mean no offense to Willie, but I am against any laws that conflict with our 2A rights as citizens of this country.
 
Regarding your idea of reticles, I haven't tried the MRAD reticles before. (Mine is mildot)

How do you like it so far?
 
I've declared war on hogs. My state encourages it.

Below were all taken inside a handful of seconds between 25 to 40 yards with 146gr SA ball.

M14S with the Leupold 1-4x20mm set on 1X, while standing/hasty sling.......... and using the bindon (BAC)......Ie... both eyes open.
 
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fragout said:
Regarding your idea of reticles, I haven't tried the MRAD reticles before. (Mine is mildot)

How do you like it so far?
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I have been using the SWFA 6X42 and the 3-15X42 with a Milliradian reticle.
Milliradian and Mildot are the same thing.

SWFA uses diamonds instead of round dots in the scopes I have but the application is the same.

Here are what the reticles look like
http://opticstalk.com/swfa-ss-reticle-substensions_topic32312.html



So far I love the reticles; I cannot truly judge them until I put rounds on target at 300-700. I have not driven to a range where I can shoot that far so I just cannot say
 
Interesting design. Costs quite a bit more than a comparable mildot version of the same scope too.

Here is the Redfield I was looking into.

http://swfa.com/Redfield-3-9x42-Battlezone-Rifle-Scope-P59509.aspx

It sells with 2 elevation dials. 1 is for use with 168gr Match loads.

70 MOA of elevation adjustment, as well as 70 MOA of windage adjustment.

TAC MOA reticle.

Anyone here use one?
 
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I politely suggest you keep looking into scopes and see how different brands stack up.

There are not many competitors with SWFA when you look at glass quality, features and price point. When you start stacking them side by side you reach a point where you pick what is more important to you.

I really wanted illumination in my scopes but just couldn't pay for it...

I settled on glass quality (in my price range), reticle and durability.

The down side to my SWFA scopes is the weight.
They are heavy


That Redfield looks like a quality scope but I suggest you think twice about it.

If you buy a scope with turrets set for a particular load you are stuck with those settings.

I'm sure you know how many factors affect ballistics. Bullet weight, co-efficient, velocity, altitude, etc, etc.

Look into custom turrets after you settle on one sweet load for your rifle.

Otherwise... learn Milrad, buy a scope with Milrad.
Shoot with confidence.
 
"Willie, my rifle is legal in my state"


That's a specific case that does not exactly define "general purpose" though, does it?

The point I'd make is that it seems that the choice has been made, and now there's a struggle to rationalize the existing decision after the fact. There are most certainly rifles that fit the real "general purpose" mission a lot better than a heavy semi automatic battle rifle that you can't bring along when a buddy a state away calls and says "come up to my deer camp and join me this year".

I have a pretty definitive collection of "battle rifles" if you define them as .30 caliber or better rifle designed for military use (over 30 of them, in fact if I stick to semi autos), but I'd never consider any of them to be a general purpose rifle. That niche is held by a Remington 600 boltgun in .308 modified with a kevlar stock and a scout rifle scope. Legal anyplace, for any game from small to large (not extra large, just large), and perfectly able to be used for defense in any *rationally forseeable* context for anyone living in the real world.


Just my two cents, sitting with rifles from A to Z to choose from.

If ya'll want to tote something that weighs twice as much that you can't hunt with in a lot of places, then enjoy your choice.


Willie


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If you buy a scope with turrets set for a particular load you are stuck with those settings.
Click to expand...
THIS.

Since we're talking optics for a GP rifle, I agree with others that a low to mid power variable is the way to go. I'm also for reticle/turret agreement (for lack of a better term.) That is to say, if the turrets are calibrated in mils, then the reticle should be scaled in mils as well. It makes come-ups, holdovers and offsets SO much easier to calculate.
 
problem i have with modern military rifles.. theyre intended to be just one rifle within a larger group of rifles.. so in the eyes of the people who decide what to issue the military.. occasional malfunctions, or lower accuracy.. these are acceptable tradeoffs for a lower cost rifle.. the whole shoot to wound philosophy is a load of crap as a wounded opponent can still shoot back.. its just a line of bullcrap they feed you to make people feel better about generally underpowered rifles that require multiple shots and a high volume of fire.. all to be cheap, and managable by a variety of people which do include women...

that said.. other rifles mentioned, like the XCR, SCAR-L.. these are really unproven designs, neither one has ever been the main battle rifle of any military, are highly expensive, and half plastic.. i think if you want something youre going to rely on for ANY occasion, then youd want something simple enough to repair on your own with basic shop tools.. thats one reason i prefer an AK over an AR15.. i can get a barrel blank and a lathe and make a new barrel myself since the most complex part of an AR15 barrel, the locking lugs, are not part of the barrel on the AK or most other designs

so i .308 or higher, and preferably a simpler more old school design are a must if you want something youre going to rely on in any situation, and the only rifles that are going to fill that role are milsurp bolt actions.. you know, the kind that you can feed with stripper clips, en block clips (like the steyr 1895), or drop a handful of rounds down the side of (like the krag jorgensen), or fed via a detachable box magazine if you have a newer bolt action (clips can usually be reloaded just as fast and are much cheaper though

and as for semi automatics.. a lot of older designs work well, garand, M1a, FAL, FN49, and if youre not reloading the HK91 doesnt even have a gas system to worry about and is the platform for some of the most accurate family of semi automatics out there (like PSG1, G3SG1, MSG90)

but IF i was going to go with a more customizable .308 rifle, id probably take my huge amount of knowledge and experience on the AK platform (i build my own from parts), id be more inclined to go for a saiga 308 converted to a full-on AK rifle in 7.62x51/.308 winchester like this.. though since im in a gun friendly state, id probably push that front sight back a bit and thread the muzzle for standard .308 brakes and flash suppressors.. can anyone talk me out of NOT selling my AK-74 and getting a saiga .308 instead? or maybe a .30-06 saiga converted to 8mm mauser :D

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/arms...947_03_custom_saiga_308_w_7_25_round__640.jpg
 
Browning BLR in .308 is what I just chose for a GPR. With 20" barrell, weighing 6.5 lbs, its relatively easy to carry, yet should provide sufficient knock-down power for most large game. The lever action, while not particularly quick, seems to offer a bit of advantage over a bolt-action in follow-up shots. Cost was also a factor for me, bought the gun used with scope for around $800. Thought about a semi-auto, but the higher prices and heavier weights sent me back to the BLR. I can see myself using it and taking it, whereas a heavier semi-auto would probably be sitting in the gun safe.
 
problem i have with modern military rifles.. theyre intended to be just one rifle within a larger group of rifles..
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This is a topic, outside the confines of this thread (maybe) that I think deserves a lot more attention, especially considering how so many people make "battle proven" or "currently fielded" the factor for determining a design's worthiness or effectiveness. The issue of designing to statistics rather than individual needs not only results in what we consider deficiencies, but also gross excesses. Neither serves a savvy user very well, which is why I like to approach the topic of rifle design objectively, from a components/design feature perspective. Bottom up design tailored to unique needs; not top down tailored to current tactics or best practices.

A case in point is favoring a particular rifle for its sights; a feature which can be transplanted onto any and every other platform there is or ever has been. And yet it is the most frequently cited feature I hear when the M1 family is praised (but not the contraption of an op-rod, for some reason :D)

all to be cheap, and managable by a variety of people which do include women...
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Exactly the same thing can be said about the Mosin (well, now that we have women on the front lines ;)), and many people love those guns for that fact. Granted, I've never understood the "simplicity" argument after looking at the MN bolt design, nor the "peasant-simple operability" when it comes to the various quirks and stuck bolts inherent in Mosin-dom. But for many folks, the fact a rifle was issued to all defines it as sufficient for all.

and as for semi automatics.. a lot of older designs work well, garand, M1a, FAL, FN49, and if youre not reloading the HK91 doesnt even have a gas system to worry about
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And Madsen, don't forget the Madsen :evil:. They're still use in Rio to this day :p. (seriously; a semi-auto Martini-Henry that will feed any profile of cartridge/bullet short enough, in a recoil operated platform that is among the shortest in receiver length and reciprocal travel I've yet come across --probably deserves another look by designers now that CNC auto-milling makes complex shapes just as expensive as simple ones ;) )

Another platform that may be worth looking at, is the SIG 550 series guns; they are basically an AK bolt/carrier/piston/receiver stuck atop a FCG/magwell lower in the style of an AR with similar ergonomics. The best of both worlds, some might argue. The ARX/SCAR/BREN next-gen rifles coming out seem to be trending toward this direction, too (modular piston design).

"maybe a .30-06 saiga"
Wow, I can honestly say I learned something new today. Did not know there was another semi '06 on the block. More the merrier :)

TCB
 
i just learned about the 30-06 saigas just recently, never actually seen one but i do know saigas can do atleast 1" groups at 100 yards.. seen a number of saiga 308s go toe to toe with FALs and M1As for accuracy which debunks the myth that AKs are inaccurate because of the long-stroke piston and loose tolerances, most are inaccurate due to crappy low quality barrels firing surplus ammunition (polish beryl rifle used by the polish military fired 5.56 at 1" at 100 too, and thats without any real attempts to accurize)

as for discussing the role and intentions of military rifles, whether theyre the best choice as a general purpose rifle or better left to a squad role, feel free to start another topic barnbwt
 
The sheet metal receiver design is also dis-advantageous to consistent alignment, at least if the optics mount designs are dependent upon this. Heavier milled or reinforced designs can combat this, but obviously at a cost.

That said...
"most are inaccurate due to crappy low quality barrels firing surplus ammunition"
This. Some of the bad rap probably comes from crappy low quality shooters shooting the same, as well ;)

TCB
 
well on the newer AKs, obviously the russians, bulgarians, polish, etc all decided there wasnt enough of a benefit using a milled receiver over stamped to justify the cost, and part of the optics mount shares the rivet with the rear trunnion.. i never had any issues with any alignment, stamped receivers for AKs are pretty strong, and very cheap to replace the sheet metal to should it take any kind of damage

but what i like most about the AK platform is it works best with more conventional gunsmithing.. for example, should you want to do a caliber conversion, if you have the lathe you could get a barrel blank and make an entirely new barrel with just that.. an AR15 barrel would require the additional work of machining the locking lugs which is why AR15 builders are restricted to the calibers they can find barrels made in.. AK builders are really only restricted by their imagination if they have just basic home shop tools

people call me crazy when i say AKs are more versatile in that respect, but i stand by it.. thats why you can see the action stretched all the way out to .30-06 lengths, or shrunk all the way down to length depending on what you want to do with it.. the AR-15 magwell being of a fixed size is more of a limitation not only in length or width of magazines, but shape of the magazines as well (ak mags follow the natural curvature of any cartrdge when stacked in a magazine, the top 1/3rd isnt straight no matter what, but curved from top to bottom for smoother more constant feeding

that said.. neither the FAL, M1A, or any other .308 caliber rifle i can think of able to be so versatile and customizable as the AK platform.. which is why its my favorite design so far and why it makes one of the best general purpose platforms as well.. id have no problems at all hunting anything on this continent with a 1MOA .308 saiga based AK rifle
 
"Bring one to many states (Say,,, Pennsylvania, for example) for deer hunting and see how long you last before the game wardens arrest you...... "

Willie, eh, guess I'd use one of my hunting rifles should I go to one of those states. But taking your logic, such a rifle does not exist at all considering you cannot even use a single shot to hunt in some states. Game warden and all, I'd like to see you hunt in a shotgun only state or area...For you, I'd recommend getting a spear. I think that is universally legal in every state. Even then it might not be. Fancy a bag of rocks and a sling?

As to versatility, why do I need that in a GP rifle? What purpose is it to spend hours pressing barrels, modifying bolt heads, opening mag wells and the like on a rifle for general use? An AK set up for, say, the 7.62x51 round will not easily go back to a smaller round without significant metalwork beyond the barrel. It might be easy for you to build an AK for a certain purpose, but changing one from one to the other isn't so easy, and a stamped receiver can only have rivets ground off and replaced so many times before it's toast. I have owned many AK-based rifles and liked them all, but they were always and ever intended to be assembled into one configuration and caliber and left that way. The whole point, as I see it, of a General Purpose rifle is not to play legos, but to have a rifle set up in one configuration and left that way. It would be the Jack of All Trades but master of none of them, it would be a Swiss Army Knife rifle. It would be capable of a multitude of uses.

If you are constantly modifying it, then you have not reached that point where you actually have a General Purpose rifle. If you are thinking more of a modular rifle that you can modify for multiple uses, then it is no longer General Purpose but modular for unique purposes that do not lend themselves to use in other conditions. That also creates a need to keep a store of modification parts and starts to really negate the simplicity of a GP type arm.

You want that, you want a rifle that you can change out (in that case, what you want is a receiver and trigger group onto which you can attach any rifle, stock, and bolt), a Savage 110 beats the AK hands down as it requires even less tools to make just about what ever you want to make.

In any case, your AK-based Saiga would in itself make a fine GP rifle. It certainly is cheaper than my LRB M14, but it is no better than mine (and in my case, I prefer the trigger and safety in my choice). Even so, your choice remains a good rifle and were that all that I had, I would be more than fine using it in the GP role.
 
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actually.. spears are pretty universally ILLEGAL in just about every state.. trust me, i checked :-D.. not that i wanted to hunt with a spear, but the idea of using an atlatl had crossed my mind a few times if i was interested in some 100,000 year old hunting experiences

anyway.. for general purpose im not sure 7.62x51/308 is a minimum.. what on this continent cant be killed with a 7.62x39 at a lighter weight rifle with more ammunition.. ballistically almost identicle to the .30-30 which if im not mistaken is regularly used to kill moose as well.. and im sure in some cases has taken bison.. keep in mind the most widely used big game hunting cartridge at one point was the .44-40, ballistically no better than a 44 special

i have nothing against M1As, in fact, M1As, garands are a couple of my favorite rifles.. i just think theyre way overpriced for a "general purpose rifle" that may spend a lot of time being dragged through mud and banged around over the years

would you take your M1A into an environment that could leave it with scratches and gashes in the stock?.. or would you be more inclined to use something cheaper for the purpose?
 
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An AR barrel turned on a lathe has no locking lugs, those are on the separate barrel extension, which is a simpler incarnation of the AK front trunnion --its only complex operation is EDMing the lugs, which is easy/cheap in an industrial setting. Making a front trunnion in the garage is probably worse.

The real limitation of the AR is that it is so much smaller at the barrel extension, and that the lower/upper designs don't allow for easy "splicing" to change length.

TCB
 
well dont forget on the AR youre also restricted to a specific COAL due to the magwell.. which if im not mistaken that restricted COAL was one of the dooming factors for the 6.8SPC adoption (as well as the wrong twist rate, poor chamber specs, and other issues)

and i also know about the barrel extensions on the AR15.. was just hoping no one else knew :-D.. its not a bad idea though, if im not mistaken, the entire chamber is in the extension so theres no headspacing necessary?
 
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