Ideas for a General Purpose Rifle (GPR) chambered in 308

[fragout]

Interesting concept concerning the FNAR. Nice pics too. Thanks for sharing here.....and yup....I'm the OP.
I agree with you, as I don't think it could handle extreme use like a well built 14 could, but could fit the bill for a "less used and abused" concept as you describe.

As for ammo, I generally carry more on me then I ever have intention to use.

1-20rd mag inserted and 6 others. (I gotta stay fit to stay in the Infantry brother)

Before anyone asks.......it is legal where I'm from to hunt using 20rd mags.

If I needed more mags, CMI makes a good reliable one, and I have bought them from 44mag as well as LRB Arms. Around half as much as the above FNAR mags run.

Speaking of ammo, I cant think of any safe to fire load or bullet that cant bring down a whitetail deer or a hog......depending on distance and shot placement of course.

My left over horde of SouthAfrican 146gr ball will put any hog in the dirt if I do my part. Not bad considering I have less than 20 cents per rd invested in it.

1- 140rd battle pack fills up my 7 mags just dandy, and they are relatively easy to cache.....if one were so inclined.

 

[back40]

so willie sutton's description is SHTF with wild outliers...but being able to engage multiple armed assailants at the same time for security purposes isn't?

give me a break.

 

[back40]

1- 140rd battle pack fills up my 7 mags just dandy, and they are relatively easy to cache.....if one were so inclined.

you should've titled this thead " SHTF rifle that i can use on a regular basis now". that's clearly what some of you are referring to.

you can try and call it general purpose all you want. but deeming a semi auto vital to engaging multiple armed targets and caching ammo simply isn't general purpose.

 

[fragout]

Breaking up a mob of filthy hogs makes for some good use at hitting multiple targets that are moving.
Fun for the whole family ifn's ya ask me.

The 140rds is more for the PT side of the equation....... hopefully you understand.

I carry exactly 139 additional rds that may not be used at all, but the ability to carry this amount wherever I feel like carrying it, and for as long as I want to is something others haven't put into practice.

The SHTF rifle should be the current rifle that one is used to using now, and not afterwards.

Folks who buy that perfect rifle for just such a possibility, and have the "break glass in case of emergency" mindset are gonna be in for one heck of a learning curve IMO.....lol
Note: This includes all you 5.56mm guys and gals out there, once you strap on a few 30rd topped off mags and realize for the first time how much it truly weighs, and no clue as to properly disperse the weight, adjust that brand spanking new LBE, vest, or chest rig that has not been worn enough for proper break in, and haven't had it out in the rain to see what it feels like soaking wet, or how it feels when it starts to dry out.

Can they tell you for certain as to where a cold bore shot from their rifle will end up at a given distance and with a given load of ammunition?
What adjustments need to be made with iron sights or optics when switching between different loads?
How to tell if your recoil spring is in need of replacing BEFORE it has a chance to fail?
Any hash marks on their sling? Any idea as to why hash marks might be handy on a sling?

Can they accomplish proper shot placement with their chosen rifle while out of breath, under sleep deprivation, and/or while they are shivering so bad from the cold that their teeth are rattiling?

I'm sorry if my choice aint the same as yours, but why the extra jawing over it.

It's just the internet after all. What's your choice?

 

[back40]

I use the word security in place of defense, as it holds a different meaning to me, and reflects in my preference for a semiautomatic rifle

so hogs are a security threat now? first you claim semi auto for security, now you change your tune to hog hunting.

the ability to carry this amount wherever I feel like carrying it, and for as long as I want to is something others haven't put into practice

now you know how much ammo others are capable of and practice carrying?

so tell me, when i head off for a day or three, exactly what is my typical loadout?

The SHTF rifle should be the current rifle that one is used to using now, and not afterwards.

Folks who buy that perfect rifle for just such a possibility, and have the "break glass in case of emergency" mindset are gonna be in for one heck of a learning curve IMO.....lol

so again, this was more about a shtf rifle for you, that you decided to call a GPR

 

[Willie Sutton]

"you can try and call it general purpose all you want. but deeming a semi auto vital to engaging multiple armed targets and caching ammo simply isn't general purpose"


Precisely.

"General purpose" is what I would use to describe what I would take on an extended RV trip or Boat Trip in the USA and contiguous countries, with the desire to participate in a wide variety of hunting activities, odd informal target shooting, and the (very unlikely) potential of self defense. This is based on more than guesswork: I've done a year circle of the USA in a van, have flown a light plane on a three month circuit around the USA with side trips to Alaska and Canada, and am now in the middle of a six month trip down the coast on my boat. On each I have taken one rifle: A general purpose one, in .308. I've been invited to shoot pigs, deer, coyotes, and rabbits. Have shot tin cans on the ground and clay birds in the air for fun. Walked near to the Mexican border in Arizona, where you want a rifle for real social reasons, and carried it for a week thru the Mojave where every ounce of "less rifle" was an ounce of "more water". Run many tactical rifle drills, and never thought I was without a good tool. Carried it thru NY and NJ and Wyoming too. Carried it into Canada, and back. Maybe not the best tool, but I never went without a good tool.

That's general purpose in the real world.


"so tell me, when i head off for a day or three, exactly what is my typical loadout?"

Five in the rifle and five in the pocket usually works.... in the real world....




Willie

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[back40]

I'm sorry if my choice aint the same as yours, but why the extra jawing over it.

extra jawing? that's what you've been doing through out this entire thread. not to mention having a condescending attitude towards other members as if they were newbies and have no real world experience.

example

Folks who buy that perfect rifle for just such a possibility, and have the "break glass in case of emergency" mindset are gonna be in for one heck of a learning curve IMO.....lol
Note: This includes all you 5.56mm guys and gals out there, once you strap on a few 30rd topped off mags and realize for the first time how much it truly weighs, and no clue as to properly disperse the weight, adjust that brand spanking new LBE, vest, or chest rig that has not been worn enough for proper break in, and haven't had it out in the rain to see what it feels like soaking wet, or how it feels when it starts to dry out.

enjoy your m14 'GPR'

 

[fragout]

It's my thread for one thing.

I stated my idea for general purpose from the get go. (Security and hunting bub)

I didn't say however that it was or should be everyone elses.

If you want me to get more specific I can.
Right after you answer the above questions first.

You a man with a rifle or a rifleman?

If you have the break in case of emergency mindset, then maybe your the former. If you use your rifle on a consistent basis now, then maybe you aren't.

That's why I asked the questions in the first place.

You spending more time dumping on my choice then explaining yours.

 

[back40]

you meant to say shtf, right...'bub'?

are you saying that you haven't been specific as of yet?

also, are you referring to the questions you posed in which you seemingly feel that you are the only true rifleman out there?

like i said, enjoy your m14. it's a fine rifle.

go back and read post #27. i don't need to expand any more than that.

chest thumping about superior rifle skills is boring.

i think this thread has run it's course.

 

[fragout]

Willie.

I respect your idea of a general purpose rifle. As with Cooper's idea, ours simply differs is all.

Nothing wrong with anyone's choice here really. Some folks get carried away with worrying about other's choices rather than explain their own.

I don't consider you to be one of them, as you have defined what you consider to be GP in your world.

Like I said earlier........ I might change my mind once I retire.

You did give me some food for thought concerning a bolt action choice for a all purpose legal to use hunting rifle.

 

[fragout]

You brought up SHTF there sweety. Not me. Try reading the entire opening thread before your ridicule starts.
I see no need to banter here.

Those questions were not directed at you, but could you answer them for other folks who have a rifle/carbine tucked away in the back of a safe somewhere for use in this light?

The chest beating is comin from you Back40.

Instead of belittling other prople's choice, maybe you could let us all in on yours?

And to answer your question.....

I'm a subject matter expert concerning my specific rifles.

your turn

 

[back40]

your name calling, although cute, is unnecessary and certainly not high road.

i'm not chest beating or belittling anything. i'm just calling them as i see them. sorry if that's not your cup of tea. as i and others have stated, multiple armed targets simply isn't a gpr role or feasable justification for choosing a rilfe to serve in that capacity.

i already referred you to the post where i stated my opinion on a gpr. i have no further use for this thread, so you enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[fragout]

Anywhooooos........Back to topic.

FTR here...... I stated a few times already that I'm interested in others choices concerning a rifle chambered in 308.
Reasons behind your choice would be interesting as well.

Lessons learned so far....
Even if defining a thread with a specific purpose/intent, there will be conflicting viewpoints.

The biggest one so far has been the importance of "security" as compared to the "hunting" aspect.

Some have reasoned that the need for security in their case is not as high, so the extra 2lbs for a semiautomatic rifle is not justified.

Others are strictly in it for a hunting rig.

And there are those that view a semiautomatic rifle as very much worth it concerning security, and also actively hunt with it now.

Almost everyone seems to agree that knowing their specific rifle inside and out is worth the effort.


Pics are great if you want to share them.

 

[fragout]

I apologize for the names Back40.

In the future, I simply/respectfully ask that you read the whole post or thread, and not one paragragh out of it before replying.

You have a great day as well.

By midnight tonight, I'll be in the woods hunting hogs, so life is good. (168gr TSX if I can find um)...the hogs that is...lol. Ammo is already in the mag. CMI 20rd stainless steel to be exact.

I wish you and yours well.

 

[back40]

knowing their specific rifle inside and out is worth the effort.

^ this is probably more important than any 'equipment' choices one can make. certain platforms may perform better than others in certain roles, but in the end, "it's the indian, not the arrow".

no apology necessary, fragout. my skin ain't that thin

 

[Gun Master]

Forget .308 - Try 30-06

The .308 was a NATO thing . That is going to pot . The 30-06 is a much better choice for general purpose . But, the .308 is much better than the .223 . You da' man, you decide .

 

[jason41987]

umm.. wouldnt shtf, and engaging multiple targets not be included in GENERAL purpose?.. and would you not use your most trusted rifle for that situation too? its my impression that general purpose covers ALL possibilities, and requires a rifle that can handle ANY task

also, my thread about AKs being able to be converted to many different calibers, you misread, its not to do any kind of quick barrel change, or to tweak it to a specific role, the intention is that if .308 isnt your cup of tea, you could probably in some way get one in a caliber that is

i think a .308 battle rifle of any type would be suitable for just about everything.. maybe not ideal for small game though if you dont like your meat pre-tenderized.. but i dont think theres one cartridge thats going to be able to do EVERYTHING efficiently.. sort of a jack of all trades and master of none kind of situation

 

[barnbwt]

Wow, that escalated quickly

The 30-06 is a much better choice for general purpose

I'd say that's debatable, since it's fundamentally dependent upon your personal opinion regarding the whole "capacity" thing we all just had a tizzy over. If the intention is to shoot <180gr rounds, the 308 gives up very little if anything, is smaller/lighter in both ammo and magazines, and is available in more platforms (especially if talking semi-auto). If you only shoot 200gr as a matter of course, but still want a light rifle, then bolt gun is the only practical option.

But even a 30-06 bolt gun will weigh more and take up more space than a short-action 308 equivalent, and won't move a 168gr matchking much differently (though it will do it at a lower pressure, to be fair). Recoil will be a bit higher, but probably offset by the bit of additional receiver weight.

Also, hogs are a real security threat. A sounder can easily maul a human or animal without a ranged weapon or high ground to jump to. And that's not counting the financial risk they pose, which is far greater. I would call prairie dogs a threat as well, since their burrows will cripple and kill cattle if they are allowed to proliferate.

Lessons learned so far....
Even if defining a thread with a specific purpose/intent, there will be conflicting viewpoints.

The biggest one so far has been the importance of "security" as compared to the "hunting" aspect.

Some have reasoned that the need for security in their case is not as high, so the extra 2lbs for a semiautomatic rifle is not justified.

Others are strictly in it for a hunting rig.

And there are those that view a semiautomatic rifle as very much worth it concerning security, and also actively hunt with it now.

Almost everyone seems to agree that knowing their specific rifle inside and out is worth the effort.

Very succinct summary of the thread thus far. The lesson I learned is to never suggest there can be any ubiquity in anything firearms related . Even if only soliciting individuals' personal choices and reasoning, it will turn into a pissing match over what's best for everyone. You can't blur the lines between a "show-and-tell" and a "versus" thread (the two kinds found on THR ) since people are compelled to dominate others in order to justify their decisions (it's a cognitive dissonance/groupthink thing)

"I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is no one's better than anyone else, and everyone's the best at everything." --Principal Skinner

TCB

 

[jason41987]

wouldnt a .30-06 pushing those heavier bullets at a lower pressure require a longer barrel to be efficient.. upwards of 24 inches or more? and leave you with a pretty big rifle in the end?.. whereas the higher pressure and sub 200 grain bullets of a 308 tend to perform just fine at about 18 inches.. giving you a lighter, more compact rifle

 

[barnbwt]

its my impression that general purpose covers ALL possibilities, and requires a rifle that can handle ANY task

Well, some possibilities, like shooting 1000yds, simply can't be covered by what you'd want to mess with daily. Nor being suppressed and simultaneously small and light. Nor penetrating plate armor. Nor being legal in California & NY.

But since hunting/defense aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact insist upon each other, there is very little to be lost by amplifying traits conducive to both. An accurate semi-auto gives up nothing over a bolt rifle when it comes to hunting at short to med-long range. A semi-auto has the capability of delivering fire faster than a bolt gun (aimed or otherwise). A semi-auto doesn't have to weigh very much more than a bolt gun, and the relative difference is even less if the same number of rounds are in play. A semi-autos tend to have higher magazine capacities, which are also more easily reloaded quickly.

That's a lot of added capability for two extra pounds, compared to the benefit you get from carrying extra keys, cards, smokes, belly fat, and other junk that we all carry on our persons. Shaving some weight from the boots you hike in is felt far more at the end of the day than from something worn on your shoulder.

"and would you not use your most trusted rifle for that situation too?"
I like this approach to the topic. A gun for roles you'd want a really really familiar rifle for. Honestly, target shooting (unless competitively) probably isn't one of them; it'd be boring because of its familiarity. 1000yd shots? You'd be so bogged down in details and science, that muscle familiarity pales in comparison to the importance of your doping notes. Hunting/walking around/taking care of business/fighting for your life? You'd just want a rifle that doesn't get in your way.

The rifle you don't want to have to think about when using. Not catchy, but seems apt to me . Implies that it's suited to the role, fitted to the user, functions well, and is practiced with a bunch. Sounds good to me

TCB

*PS; I at least understood what you meant by the AK platform's design flexibility, rather than its configurability. There are fewer gun designer folks on this forum than other places, and I think that some people have trouble breaking these machines down into their constituent parts to find their strengths/weaknesses/quirks and instead focus on the whole package (thumbs up/thumbs down).

There was a really cool thread on Weapons Guild a while back about blending the AK and AR platforms to create a home-buildable gun that uses common parts from both to obtain the best qualities from both (the "ARK"). I think the conclusion was an upper receiver built like an AK (or SIG550 upper), but with an AR barrel/extension set in the trunnion so the upper never sees the bolt-thrust. The upper design would be sized to interface with an AR lower, but no buffer needed due to the AK piston/carrier spring over the barrel. The bolt carrier would come from an AK, but the bolt head would be an AR's modified to fit/cam inside the AK carrier. The lower would be plain-Jane AR stuff. Basically a poor-man's SIG550 with more easily replaceable barrels. Make the lower from laminated sheet metal like the Jack Squat design, and it becomes really easy to stretch out the magwell and sheetmetal upper to hold longer rounds. If the barrel parts and bolt head used are AR10-sized, your case-head options open immensely, too.

TCB

 

[jason41987]

i just dont think the AR15 has any redeemable features not present in other rifles besides the locking lugs in the barrel being easier for people without a shop press or the lathe to headspace a barrel themselves.. the lowers magwell is restrictive, the bolt carrier is way too long and requires an extension into the stock (its long to make clearance for the hammer since it uses one big spring, a spring behind the gas key or two springs like an AR180 would shorten the carrier and not need the buffer tube which would then allow for a folding stock, and steel on steel contact via rails would reduce friction and require less oil and maintainence

i designed a rifle once that had an upper/lower receiver of a unique design, used AR15 trigger group, barrels, and bolts, but the upper receiver, lower receiver, and bolt carrier were all different, and used galil mags, the top rail was part of the threaded barrel extension which meant any optics on it would always retain PERFECT zero when swapping barrels and the gas system was modular, easily converted between direct impingement, short-stroke, or long stroke piston.. in a similar design where i design my own bolt i actually made it so the bolt could be flipped over and the rifle made to eject out the left side of the rifle for lefties

 

[DeMilled]

i designed a rifle once ...

What did you name the rifle?

 

[jason41987]

didnt name any of them, they just sit on my computer for the most part.. ive been wanting to design something really good that i could release as open-source and make available to everyone who wanted to make their own, but wanted to test it first which would require having a prototype which would require some CNC tools, which would require a shop of which i dont have since i just moved from another state.. left new york about 6 months ago for obvious reasons (mostly anti-gun legislation)

 

[Inebriated]

There's not a lot that an AK in 7.62x39 can't do in my area.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"umm.. wouldnt shtf, and engaging multiple targets not be included in GENERAL purpose?"


Only in "prepper fantasy-land".

For the real world the chances of "needing" such a thing approaches the probability of the earth being scorched into ashes by the sun during our lifetimes. And similarly, if that happens, we will probably get more than a moments warning and can grab one of the SPECIALTY rifles out of the rack....

:banghead:


"i think a .308 battle rifle of any type would be suitable for just about everything.. maybe not ideal for small game though if you dont like your meat pre-tenderized.."

Haven't shot many handloads using the full metal jacket bullets intended for the .30 carbine thru a .308 at Rabbits, have you? They go thru a Scout Rifle with ease, and make a nice neat small hole thru Mr. Bunny, who is then graciously invited home for dinner. Ought to try it in a gas operated semi auto "battle rifle" sometime to see how they feed......


Like I said, "General Purpose" is exactly that. General. On a scale of 1-10, eating chow from foraging comes in a 10, while the chances of needing to lay down suppressive fire = somewhere in the negative numbers.



Willie


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