All repeating actions limit COAL due to magwell restrictions. COAL did not doom the 6.8, the cost of converting our fighting forces to a new caliber did
What other bad information that you've been passing off did you hope we wouldn't catch?
Ideas for a General Purpose Rifle (GPR) chambered in 308
- Thread starter fragout
- Start date
- Status
All repeating actions limit COAL due to magwell restrictions. COAL did not doom the 6.8, the cost of converting our fighting forces to a new caliber did
What other bad information that you've been passing off did you hope we wouldn't catch?
Demilled, and LebbenB.
I contacted Redfield, and they told me that this is only one elevation dial. Others can be had for the same scope.....to include 1/4MOA adjustment dials.
Not sure if it would be worth the effort however, and is why I am still on the fence concerning it.
I moved the SWFA SS over to a heavy bbl bolt gun chambered in 260Rem, as the scope is not what I want on a GPR.
For the costs involved, I'm happy with the VX1 as of now. The reticle allows for hold over points, and co-incides well with my 165gr and 168gr loads.
I have also been messing around with the Barnes TSX/TTSX bullet to see if it really lives up to it's hype, and also to see how my specific rifles like it.
I contacted Redfield, and they told me that this is only one elevation dial. Others can be had for the same scope.....to include 1/4MOA adjustment dials.
Not sure if it would be worth the effort however, and is why I am still on the fence concerning it.
I moved the SWFA SS over to a heavy bbl bolt gun chambered in 260Rem, as the scope is not what I want on a GPR.
For the costs involved, I'm happy with the VX1 as of now. The reticle allows for hold over points, and co-incides well with my 165gr and 168gr loads.
I have also been messing around with the Barnes TSX/TTSX bullet to see if it really lives up to it's hype, and also to see how my specific rifles like it.
Cooper's logic is sound, your's is less realistic. While the auto does allow for an obvious firepower advantage the practical use of this advantage is unrealistic for an individule.
You can't provide supressive fire for yourself. Unless you stick and move you're at a huge disadvantage against multiple attackers. I'd prefer as Cooper's writings state a light weight bolt for GP.
I love my M1a and it would be great if I had support of others defending my position, I'd much prefer a 6-7 pound bolt gun if i were on my own.
My apologies mavracer. I could have worded that better, as I used the term "self defense in that part you quoted me on....when I meant to say "security". (Good catch, as I don't mind my threads or posts being picked apart. I view it as a good thing in terms of debate.)
Read the rest of my post, and you will hopefully see what I was getting at concerning how I differentiate the term self defense with that of security. (They have rifles too, and are able to achieve the same)
From my experience in direct combat overseas...... The more important part is WHEN to stick and move. If the ability to do so whilst using a rifle that weighs in at approx. 2 lbs more hinders this, then this is the least of one's concerns. (Think cardio brother....lol)
Cooper's idea was better directed at self defense, so his bolt action choice has merit in that regard.
He also advised against becoming decisively engaged with anyone....and regardless of the weapon of choice while your runnin around by yourself especially.
I'm not saying that my idea is better than Cooper's was. It is simply different, as my requirements differ in comparison.
I would have added the requirement for a rifle that is "can" capable however........ and it's one of mine with my current choice.
All by my lonesome with only the equipment I have in my ruck to rely on?
The rifle could be a bolt action, but not chambered in 308, as I wouldn't require a 308 chambered rifle for this purpose.
Self defense would be more directed towards "passive defense", my requirements for a cartridge capable of anchoring medium to large game would not be near as important if I had only myself to feed, and the weight I can carry with my equipment would not be geared towards a centerfire rifle with it's corresponding weight towards ammunition.
A semi, bolt, or single shot 22lr with threaded bbl would be my choice in this respect....... but in all honesty...... I don't consider a "lonewolf" mentality as the ideal plan. (Too many other concerns here, and most have nothing to do with choice of weapons)
Read the rest of my post, and you will hopefully see what I was getting at concerning how I differentiate the term self defense with that of security. (They have rifles too, and are able to achieve the same)
From my experience in direct combat overseas...... The more important part is WHEN to stick and move. If the ability to do so whilst using a rifle that weighs in at approx. 2 lbs more hinders this, then this is the least of one's concerns. (Think cardio brother....lol)
Cooper's idea was better directed at self defense, so his bolt action choice has merit in that regard.
He also advised against becoming decisively engaged with anyone....and regardless of the weapon of choice while your runnin around by yourself especially.
I'm not saying that my idea is better than Cooper's was. It is simply different, as my requirements differ in comparison.
I would have added the requirement for a rifle that is "can" capable however........ and it's one of mine with my current choice.
All by my lonesome with only the equipment I have in my ruck to rely on?
The rifle could be a bolt action, but not chambered in 308, as I wouldn't require a 308 chambered rifle for this purpose.
Self defense would be more directed towards "passive defense", my requirements for a cartridge capable of anchoring medium to large game would not be near as important if I had only myself to feed, and the weight I can carry with my equipment would not be geared towards a centerfire rifle with it's corresponding weight towards ammunition.
A semi, bolt, or single shot 22lr with threaded bbl would be my choice in this respect....... but in all honesty...... I don't consider a "lonewolf" mentality as the ideal plan. (Too many other concerns here, and most have nothing to do with choice of weapons)
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Not to nit pick but 2 lbs is far from realistic difference My M1a is close to 12 lbs add to that the weight of enough ammo to make any difference and it isn't hard to see why the military moved away from it in a "general use" roll.
Not saying that a auto would be detramental just not that big of advantage.
IMHO a better choice would be a FNAR 16" fluted.
Mine weighs in at 8.3 lbs empty and with sling & Arms mount.
1- topped off 20rd M14 mag weighs out at 1.5 lbs....although a 5 or 10 rd mag would be less.
9.8 lbs total.
My actual weight concerning the rifle is different then your "realistic" assumption.
IE..... Not all M14 types weigh the same. What model of M1A are you referring too? If yours is at 12 lbs...then I can see your point.
And realistically speaking here....... my chances of winning any gunfight by myself against multiple armed opponents would not be very high, regardless of what I was armed with.
Another reason why I do not view the lonewolf ideas.
The best defense is a passive defense.
I can accomplish the above with a 22lr chambered rifle, and with less weight concerning said rifle as well as ammunition. ................. and can only think of a few situations where a rifle chambered in 308 would be a benefit. ( The few off the top of my head have little to do with self defense however)
I would agree with you concerning the general use role in a modern Army. The majority of an Army comprises of combat support and combat service support units. The former can utilize other supporting weapons to engage the enemy, while CSS units simply need something to provide them with self/local defense. The general purpose machine gun has always been chmbered for 7.62x51mm since it replaced 30-06 decades ago.
How do you like your FNAR? Any pics? Any iron sights?
1- topped off 20rd M14 mag weighs out at 1.5 lbs....although a 5 or 10 rd mag would be less.
9.8 lbs total.
My actual weight concerning the rifle is different then your "realistic" assumption.
IE..... Not all M14 types weigh the same. What model of M1A are you referring too? If yours is at 12 lbs...then I can see your point.
And realistically speaking here....... my chances of winning any gunfight by myself against multiple armed opponents would not be very high, regardless of what I was armed with.
Another reason why I do not view the lonewolf ideas.
The best defense is a passive defense.
I can accomplish the above with a 22lr chambered rifle, and with less weight concerning said rifle as well as ammunition. ................. and can only think of a few situations where a rifle chambered in 308 would be a benefit. ( The few off the top of my head have little to do with self defense however)
I would agree with you concerning the general use role in a modern Army. The majority of an Army comprises of combat support and combat service support units. The former can utilize other supporting weapons to engage the enemy, while CSS units simply need something to provide them with self/local defense. The general purpose machine gun has always been chmbered for 7.62x51mm since it replaced 30-06 decades ago.
How do you like your FNAR? Any pics? Any iron sights?
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Below shows an idea of what a true M14 could be capable of, concerning a break in contact drill, suppressing fire, stopping light skinned vehicles on a fast avenue of approach, etc...etc......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSceYZsGbkU
Feel free to pick it apart.....lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSceYZsGbkU
Feel free to pick it apart.....lol
Float Pilot
Member
Now that this has spun off into a battle rifle thread this might be a moot point, but I will toss it into the mix.
If one gets back to the mutli-purpose hunting / field-rifle intention, then one must also consider the area in which the owner would employ the forearm.
For example :
Somebody who lives on the plains or open desert would want extreme long range accuracy. Volume of fire would not be as much of a consideration.
The swamps of Louisiana would require a different set-up, with corrosion resistance and the ability to fire when soaked with water. Volume of fire may be a consideration.
A huge metropolitan area like Los Angles would not offer any hunting opportunities other than in an over active imagination, so volume of fire would be the only concern.
Here is Alaska we have multiple environments, so it would depend if you are on the wide open north coastal areas or the dense rain-forest of the South Eastern panhandle.
In our case corrosion resistance, the ability to work in cold temps and the ability to stop a large wounded brown bear would be a factor. ( one reason why the 308 win is not all that popular up here, as it is considered marginal) .
I have owned 4 M1-A variants. While the super-match that I owned was the most accurate by far,( and flippin heavy) none of the Springfield Armory guns could compete for reliability with the real M-14 I was issued back when I was in my first branch. Mine had a selector but I only fired it full auto when the M-60 gunner was changing belts.
If one gets back to the mutli-purpose hunting / field-rifle intention, then one must also consider the area in which the owner would employ the forearm.
For example :
Somebody who lives on the plains or open desert would want extreme long range accuracy. Volume of fire would not be as much of a consideration.
The swamps of Louisiana would require a different set-up, with corrosion resistance and the ability to fire when soaked with water. Volume of fire may be a consideration.
A huge metropolitan area like Los Angles would not offer any hunting opportunities other than in an over active imagination, so volume of fire would be the only concern.
Here is Alaska we have multiple environments, so it would depend if you are on the wide open north coastal areas or the dense rain-forest of the South Eastern panhandle.
In our case corrosion resistance, the ability to work in cold temps and the ability to stop a large wounded brown bear would be a factor. ( one reason why the 308 win is not all that popular up here, as it is considered marginal) .
I have owned 4 M1-A variants. While the super-match that I owned was the most accurate by far,( and flippin heavy) none of the Springfield Armory guns could compete for reliability with the real M-14 I was issued back when I was in my first branch. Mine had a selector but I only fired it full auto when the M-60 gunner was changing belts.
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Float pilot:
Would you consider your once issued M14 to be capable in the role of GPR in your state?
How about an M1A or other M14 clone built with the same or better parts, and to the same or better specifications.....too include Cerekote, or other type instead of zinc phosphate?
I have only had a few encounters with bears while my rifle was in my hands.
A brown bear encounter resulted in said bear running the opposite way after a warning shot was delivered, and 2 black bears were dispatched with one 165gr bullet each while hunting. (Not in Alaska)
Would you consider your once issued M14 to be capable in the role of GPR in your state?
How about an M1A or other M14 clone built with the same or better parts, and to the same or better specifications.....too include Cerekote, or other type instead of zinc phosphate?
I have only had a few encounters with bears while my rifle was in my hands.
A brown bear encounter resulted in said bear running the opposite way after a warning shot was delivered, and 2 black bears were dispatched with one 165gr bullet each while hunting. (Not in Alaska)
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My chances of running into a large hostile Kodiak/polar bear are 0%. ( The chances of getting involved in a firefight are higher....lol)
Never hunted in AK, so am forced to go by research too learn what others prefer.
This might be interesting concerning hunting in AK
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.firearms
Not only is 308 mentioned as an all around good choice for big game hunting, but 270 and 7mm08 are mentioned as well. They should use a premium constructed bullet (partition mentioned specifically), and be able to place the shots inside a 8 inch circle consistently from the sitting or kneeling position.
(No maximum distance mentioned)
A few other interesting bits of info include........
1. The 2 biggest complaints that hunting guides have are when folks show up to hunt, but are out of shape physically. (Cardio anyone?) " One can master carrying a 9 to 11 lbs boltaction rifle with scope and pack out moose meat or bear hides".....as another example on this site.
2. They show up with magnums that they cant shoot as well as other rifles chambered in calibers mentioned above. (Obviously not the rifle's fault) They go on to say that the "must have a magnum" is a myth, and is simply not true.
This supports my ideas concerning a rifle of said caliber, and also supports my idea that a 7lbs rifle chambered in this same cartridge will not make up for any lack of physical conditioning. I could carry either weight rifle over the same terrain for the same length of time.
The "ounces count" idea is a good one, but not at the expense of overall performance concerning a GPR in my experience.
Thoughts?
Never hunted in AK, so am forced to go by research too learn what others prefer.
This might be interesting concerning hunting in AK
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.firearms
Not only is 308 mentioned as an all around good choice for big game hunting, but 270 and 7mm08 are mentioned as well. They should use a premium constructed bullet (partition mentioned specifically), and be able to place the shots inside a 8 inch circle consistently from the sitting or kneeling position.
(No maximum distance mentioned)
A few other interesting bits of info include........
1. The 2 biggest complaints that hunting guides have are when folks show up to hunt, but are out of shape physically. (Cardio anyone?) " One can master carrying a 9 to 11 lbs boltaction rifle with scope and pack out moose meat or bear hides".....as another example on this site.
2. They show up with magnums that they cant shoot as well as other rifles chambered in calibers mentioned above. (Obviously not the rifle's fault) They go on to say that the "must have a magnum" is a myth, and is simply not true.
This supports my ideas concerning a rifle of said caliber, and also supports my idea that a 7lbs rifle chambered in this same cartridge will not make up for any lack of physical conditioning. I could carry either weight rifle over the same terrain for the same length of time.
The "ounces count" idea is a good one, but not at the expense of overall performance concerning a GPR in my experience.
Thoughts?
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Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 2,025
"As to versatility, why do I need that in a GP rifle?"
Please warn us before writing anything similar, as I am tired of cleaning the coffee off of my screen after spitting it thru my nose laughing...
Why indeed would we want *versatility* in a "general purpose rifle"?
:banghead:
Willie
.
Please warn us before writing anything similar, as I am tired of cleaning the coffee off of my screen after spitting it thru my nose laughing...
Why indeed would we want *versatility* in a "general purpose rifle"?
:banghead:
Willie
.
buzz meeks
Member
I'm with Mr. Sutton on this one. I'm slightly amazed at the purposes that some people regard as general. I appreciate that several of the posters here have formed their opinions based on what they've seen in actual combat, but for most of us stateside, a sustained firefight is beyond a remote possibility. And should that possibility arise, I suspect it will be my skill at arms that saves the day, not my volume of fire.
LebbenB
Member
SIDEBAR: Surface Coatings and Nitro-Carburization
For barrels, I've become a fan of ferric nitro-carburization. This treatment is known by several brandnames, tennifer and melonite chief among them. On exterior surfaces, it creates a harder outer layer that's extremely weather resistant. When applied to bores, it creates a bore with a hardness and lubricity that is the equal to (some would argue superior to) chrome lining. The true advantage to nitro-carburization, IMO, is that the bore doesn't have to be cut larger than the caliber, aiding accuracy.
Cerakote can be laid over top of other surfectants like parkerizing and anodizing.
For barrels, I've become a fan of ferric nitro-carburization. This treatment is known by several brandnames, tennifer and melonite chief among them. On exterior surfaces, it creates a harder outer layer that's extremely weather resistant. When applied to bores, it creates a bore with a hardness and lubricity that is the equal to (some would argue superior to) chrome lining. The true advantage to nitro-carburization, IMO, is that the bore doesn't have to be cut larger than the caliber, aiding accuracy.
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Thanks for the info LebbenB.
My experience is limited concerning treatments, as only a few parts on my LRB, Norinco, and SAI rifles have any sort of treatment.
Example: The SEI parts I have are treated using their M80HT treatment, to include their MAXX PAX TG upgrade on 1 GI unit and 1 chicom unit.
I think that they still offer a bbl treatment as well, but I went with a Critierion chrome lined tube for the Norinco and LRB builds instead.
I can see advantages via the use of these various types of treatments to bbls however.
Concerning the M14, one could have any short chambered bbl they desire, have it properly installed (indexed, headspaced etc....)....then add the treatment.
With a chrome lined bbl, your stuck with whatever finished chamber specifications you get. (Not a big deal provided that said bbl meets your receiver and bolt dimensions as it should.)
My next build or rebuild (whichever comes first) will be built with this in mind, and by then, I will have enough earned data from the Criterion (LRB spec) chrome lined tubes to compare it too.
So far, my Criterion tubed rifles deliver more precision while from the bench (lead sled) than I can reproduce in the field...... so the bbl shoots fine for this purpose.
No firsthand with Cerakote however.
My experience is limited concerning treatments, as only a few parts on my LRB, Norinco, and SAI rifles have any sort of treatment.
Example: The SEI parts I have are treated using their M80HT treatment, to include their MAXX PAX TG upgrade on 1 GI unit and 1 chicom unit.
I think that they still offer a bbl treatment as well, but I went with a Critierion chrome lined tube for the Norinco and LRB builds instead.
I can see advantages via the use of these various types of treatments to bbls however.
Concerning the M14, one could have any short chambered bbl they desire, have it properly installed (indexed, headspaced etc....)....then add the treatment.
With a chrome lined bbl, your stuck with whatever finished chamber specifications you get. (Not a big deal provided that said bbl meets your receiver and bolt dimensions as it should.)
My next build or rebuild (whichever comes first) will be built with this in mind, and by then, I will have enough earned data from the Criterion (LRB spec) chrome lined tubes to compare it too.
So far, my Criterion tubed rifles deliver more precision while from the bench (lead sled) than I can reproduce in the field...... so the bbl shoots fine for this purpose.
No firsthand with Cerakote however.
Ash
Member
Willie, do yourself a big favor, there buddy, and not take things out of context. It makes you look simple-minded. Though the confession that you drool coffee is at least refreshing.
The ability to change out barrels and the like, as mentioned with the imagined advantages of an AK, was the point. A general purpose rifle has no advantage if it must be constantly modified to fit mission-specific parameters. It ceases to be general purpose.
I will agree with Float that there is not a single universal rifle for all areas of America.
Though the confession that you drool coffee is at least refreshing.The ability to change out barrels and the like, as mentioned with the imagined advantages of an AK, was the point. A general purpose rifle has no advantage if it must be constantly modified to fit mission-specific parameters. It ceases to be general purpose.
I will agree with Float that there is not a single universal rifle for all areas of America.
Float Pilot
Member
I have lived here in Alaska since Eisenhower was the president, so I tend not to get excited about web site hunting advice from a bunch of clerks and biologist who seldom leave the office.
Almost nobody uses a 270, and there are only a few folks who use 7mm-08.
They are good cartridges, but for some reason not very popular up here for actual hunting.
Granted, there are a few odd-balls, LIKE ME, who use 6.5x55m Swede, 416 Taylor, or 6.8mm SPC.( I built a long barrel 6.8mm SPC AR ) Mostly out of boredom with the standard cartridges.
30-06 is the standard lower limit of what Alaskans use. Combined with the 300 Win mag, 338 in Win mag and 375 H&H, those four cartridges make up 75% of rifle chamberings used by resident Alaskans.
It is also true that the closer you get to a large city in Alaska, ( Anchorage, Fairbanks, Juneau ) the larger the calibers magically become.
In the villages a 30-06 with 220 grain round nose is still considered enough for big bears. ( of course they either hunt from boats or poach during the winter from snow-machines when the bears are sleeping)
When I was a kid surplus 7x57mm Mausers were very popular in my area of Alaska since we had very few brown bears ( what the outsiders and new folks call grizzly).... The 30-30 and 300 Savage were also extremely popular during the 50s and 60s since my area was a homesteading region and nobody had any money.
An old guy who knows how to shoot a model 99 Savage lever-gun in 300 Savage or 308 is a lot more deadly than a kid who poses with an AK in his moms basement.
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As for using an M1-A up here, a few folks do so. I have in the past.
Although I currently have a Springfield Armory shorty M1A ( pre-SOCOM prototype) which is apart in my shop because my use of heavy bullets in some of my hand-loads resulted in damage to the gas cylinder and piston.
I have also had problems with keeping a scope properly zeroed on my full length M1-A. Most M1A scope mounts don't do well after being dragged up and down mountains and rock slides.
Since I also hunt mountain goat and Dall Sheep, I need the ability to shoot small consistent groups out to 400 yards. They are actually hard to kill cleanly and they tend to hang out (literally) in places that give you a mini heart attack just trying to get there. In those situations 2 less pounds of rifle, means a couple more pounds of food and water in my pack.
Float Pilot:
I meant no offense. The website = The Alaska Dept of fish and game. I have no way of knowing if they are the type of folks you say they are, or experienced hunters. According to the website, their data was gathered from hunting guides.
I haven't hunted in AK, but have hunted down here in several different states, and successfully. (Small critters up to coyotes, pigs, 3 species of deer, black bear, and elk with the same rifle)
BTW..... I am abbreviating Alaska here, and not referring to the AKtype rifles, so the part about some kid posing with one in his moma's basement has no bearing either...... although I would agree with you as your comparison had to do with a rifleman. (Switch the rifles up in their hands and you still end up with a rifleman armed with an AK vs a kid posing with a Model 99 in the basement.)
I have spoken with a few AK residents that hunt year around here at this forum. One hunts using a Mosin M39, while the other showed me pics of several dead Yukon brown bears that he has taken with his SCAR. ( Ammo for the Mosin is Chech FMJ, while the member with the SCAR uses 168gr TSX...if memory serves
What load were you using in your Socom? What type of scope mount?
I meant no offense. The website = The Alaska Dept of fish and game. I have no way of knowing if they are the type of folks you say they are, or experienced hunters. According to the website, their data was gathered from hunting guides.
I haven't hunted in AK, but have hunted down here in several different states, and successfully. (Small critters up to coyotes, pigs, 3 species of deer, black bear, and elk with the same rifle)
BTW..... I am abbreviating Alaska here, and not referring to the AKtype rifles, so the part about some kid posing with one in his moma's basement has no bearing either...... although I would agree with you as your comparison had to do with a rifleman. (Switch the rifles up in their hands and you still end up with a rifleman armed with an AK vs a kid posing with a Model 99 in the basement.)
I have spoken with a few AK residents that hunt year around here at this forum. One hunts using a Mosin M39, while the other showed me pics of several dead Yukon brown bears that he has taken with his SCAR. ( Ammo for the Mosin is Chech FMJ, while the member with the SCAR uses 168gr TSX...if memory serves
What load were you using in your Socom? What type of scope mount?
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Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 2,025
"The ability to change out barrels and the like"
Has nothing to do with a general purpose rifle.
A general purpose rifle is the one you can grab from the rack not knowing where you're going, or what you'll be shooting, or at what range, with a high degree of probability that you'll be OK carrying it. It is, by definition, not a specialists tool, nor is it something that you reconfigure to suit. It's the one that you would want to save when the canoe turns over and all of the others are lost. It's the one you take on a year-long trip, not knowing where you're going, or what else you'll need to carry.
I confess to be a bit of a purist regarding the subject, having participated in the Scout Rifle Conferences and having a few of the original prototype Scout Rifles put together at Gunsite in the dawn of Scout Rifles. With that said, Nothing, in practice, is as general purpose as a cartridge of worldwide general availability, which has the ability to humanely take deer sized animals at ranges to 300 yards, shot from a rifle that can be carried all day with ease, and is legal in any jurisdiction where personal arms are not completely prohibited. If you meet those criteria, you also have an effective self defense rifle, one capable of taking small game, and one capable of taking much larger game in a pinch. The definitive cartridge used to be .30-06, and it's been widely replaced by the .308. That's General Purpose. Add onto that the legality of being able to toss it into a case and carry it into 50 states plus Canada and when travelling to most destinations overseas, and you have a general purpose rifle that actually works "in the real world". This pretty much defines a Scout Rifle, meaning a real one and not the monstrous thing that Ruger labels as such.
Willie
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Has nothing to do with a general purpose rifle.
A general purpose rifle is the one you can grab from the rack not knowing where you're going, or what you'll be shooting, or at what range, with a high degree of probability that you'll be OK carrying it. It is, by definition, not a specialists tool, nor is it something that you reconfigure to suit. It's the one that you would want to save when the canoe turns over and all of the others are lost. It's the one you take on a year-long trip, not knowing where you're going, or what else you'll need to carry.
I confess to be a bit of a purist regarding the subject, having participated in the Scout Rifle Conferences and having a few of the original prototype Scout Rifles put together at Gunsite in the dawn of Scout Rifles. With that said, Nothing, in practice, is as general purpose as a cartridge of worldwide general availability, which has the ability to humanely take deer sized animals at ranges to 300 yards, shot from a rifle that can be carried all day with ease, and is legal in any jurisdiction where personal arms are not completely prohibited. If you meet those criteria, you also have an effective self defense rifle, one capable of taking small game, and one capable of taking much larger game in a pinch. The definitive cartridge used to be .30-06, and it's been widely replaced by the .308. That's General Purpose. Add onto that the legality of being able to toss it into a case and carry it into 50 states plus Canada and when travelling to most destinations overseas, and you have a general purpose rifle that actually works "in the real world". This pretty much defines a Scout Rifle, meaning a real one and not the monstrous thing that Ruger labels as such.
Willie
.
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Willie, what is your take on this rifle?
Do you mind sharing your opinion of it as an attempt at a GPR in the bolt action flavor?
I understand it is not available yet so you likely have not been able to use one
but with your experience I'd like to get your thoughts on the MVP all the same.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2013/01/29/everyman-rifle-mossberg-mvp-in-7-62-review/
Do you mind sharing your opinion of it as an attempt at a GPR in the bolt action flavor?
I understand it is not available yet so you likely have not been able to use one
but with your experience I'd like to get your thoughts on the MVP all the same.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2013/01/29/everyman-rifle-mossberg-mvp-in-7-62-review/
Float Pilot
Member
I law dawged for the State of AK for 20 years. The computer nerd whiz kids seldom asked anybody who really knew anything for info. I lost count of how many times the big wigs came out with a new policy after claiming they had conferred with experts ( which would have been me) yet we real experts had never been asked anything.
Guides see what outside hunters bring up. Alaskans do not use guides. Plus many (most) guides have an interest in different cartridges, so they do not count as the general population.
Folks who hang out on a rifle web site during a winter afternoon are more likely to have a collection of firearms looking for a purpose. Why do you think I use a iron sighted m/96 Swede whenever I can get away with it..???
200 grain Lapua and 42.5 grains RL-15. It had a pretty good punch, but the gas cylinder and piston started to jam up after 30-40 rounds. I also had some hot Varget loads in the mix during that range session of experiment loads.
My last scope mount was an Aluminum SADLAK. I should have gone with steel.
I removed the Scout Scope rail from my Shorty... Having tried various Scout Scopes I just can't get excited about them. They are slower than a peep sight and I can shoot a peep sight just as well as a 1.5 power scout scope.
The snow has stopped, so I need to go split and stack more fire-wood.
Guides see what outside hunters bring up. Alaskans do not use guides. Plus many (most) guides have an interest in different cartridges, so they do not count as the general population.
Folks who hang out on a rifle web site during a winter afternoon are more likely to have a collection of firearms looking for a purpose. Why do you think I use a iron sighted m/96 Swede whenever I can get away with it..???
200 grain Lapua and 42.5 grains RL-15. It had a pretty good punch, but the gas cylinder and piston started to jam up after 30-40 rounds. I also had some hot Varget loads in the mix during that range session of experiment loads.
My last scope mount was an Aluminum SADLAK. I should have gone with steel.
I removed the Scout Scope rail from my Shorty... Having tried various Scout Scopes I just can't get excited about them. They are slower than a peep sight and I can shoot a peep sight just as well as a 1.5 power scout scope.
The snow has stopped, so I need to go split and stack more fire-wood.
Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 2,025
"Do you mind sharing your opinion of it as an attempt at a GPR in the bolt action flavor?"
^^
Can you carry it all day with one hand at the point of balance?
Detachable box magazines that protrude below the natural plane of the trigger guard is one of those "features" that most positively take a rifle out of the category of "Scout Rifle" as used in it's pure form. Carry one all day and it'll become obvious why.
Other that that, it's probably a decent rifle.
Personally, for a new off the shelf choice: I'd just buy a Remington Model 7 in .308 and scope it properly and call it good.
Willie
.
^^
Can you carry it all day with one hand at the point of balance?
Detachable box magazines that protrude below the natural plane of the trigger guard is one of those "features" that most positively take a rifle out of the category of "Scout Rifle" as used in it's pure form. Carry one all day and it'll become obvious why.
Other that that, it's probably a decent rifle.
Personally, for a new off the shelf choice: I'd just buy a Remington Model 7 in .308 and scope it properly and call it good.
Willie
.
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Willie.
I would be interested in your choice for a GPR?
Obviously not a semiauto or a Ruger GSR.
Being biased aint a problem with me. ( Notice how much flak I draw over a rifle that weighs roughly 2 lbs more than others wish to tote around, and one that I cant use to legally hunt deer with if I ever go to PA)
Edit: A 5rd flush fit mag via M14 solves the protruding issue, although a 10 or 20rd mag hasn't bothered me yet.
I had a model 7. Not a bad rifle. I could have had the bbl threaded to meet one of my requirements, but the factory iron sights are not near as useful as adjustable aperture iron sights are for me at least. I don't think that the newer version of the M7 even has iron sights installed
Float pilot: Yes. You should have used a steel mount. Aluminum mounts just aren't reliable on the M14 types from my experience. I prefer the ARMS 18 split rail mounts for this type of rifle, as they are made out of 8620 heat treated steel, are lightweight, compact, provide for plenty of clearance in terms of spent case ejection, and if properly installed, will stay where they are supposed to. Also prefer steel rings to that of aluminum nowadays.
IE...... If the rifle takes a dump hard enough to screw it up, then that same dump would have the same potential to rattle any other form of mounting system IMO.
Just an idea for you, but you might consider closing your rifle's spindle valve during load development. I have used 200gr subsonic loads thru mine, and always close the valve prior to launching them..... and thru a can. If your rifle has a unitized gas system via the screw and glue method, then your SOL concerning a working spindle valve.
I would be interested in your choice for a GPR?
Obviously not a semiauto or a Ruger GSR.
Being biased aint a problem with me. ( Notice how much flak I draw over a rifle that weighs roughly 2 lbs more than others wish to tote around, and one that I cant use to legally hunt deer with if I ever go to PA)
Edit: A 5rd flush fit mag via M14 solves the protruding issue, although a 10 or 20rd mag hasn't bothered me yet.
I had a model 7. Not a bad rifle. I could have had the bbl threaded to meet one of my requirements, but the factory iron sights are not near as useful as adjustable aperture iron sights are for me at least. I don't think that the newer version of the M7 even has iron sights installed
Float pilot: Yes. You should have used a steel mount. Aluminum mounts just aren't reliable on the M14 types from my experience. I prefer the ARMS 18 split rail mounts for this type of rifle, as they are made out of 8620 heat treated steel, are lightweight, compact, provide for plenty of clearance in terms of spent case ejection, and if properly installed, will stay where they are supposed to. Also prefer steel rings to that of aluminum nowadays.
IE...... If the rifle takes a dump hard enough to screw it up, then that same dump would have the same potential to rattle any other form of mounting system IMO.
Just an idea for you, but you might consider closing your rifle's spindle valve during load development. I have used 200gr subsonic loads thru mine, and always close the valve prior to launching them..... and thru a can. If your rifle has a unitized gas system via the screw and glue method, then your SOL concerning a working spindle valve.
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Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 2,025
^^
New as issued out of box, restricted to bolt-on improvements?
New, with a trip to a gunsmith for improvements?
Used?
Full custom?
Many choices.....
Really, any of the modern lightweight synthetic stock bolt action rifles made today, chambered in .308, will be a great starting spot. Add a receiver sight and remove the aperature to make it a ghost ring, make sure you have a good front sight, and scope to suit if desired.
Scout Rifle scopes work well and allow magazine top offs with ease, but some folks prefer a conventional scope mount. 2-7X scopes in conventional mounts are pretty darned good for almost anything.
Stick on a third sling mount just ahead of the magazine and add a Ching Sling, and go shoot it a lot.
My own rifle in .308? Remington 600 with carbon fiber stock, Burris IER scout scope, Williams aperature rear with aperature removed, factory front sight, and Ching Sling. It's one of the original Scout Rifle Conference prototypes and was owned by Eric Ching and sold after his death. But that's just mine, build anything close and shoot it as much as you can.
Willie
.
New as issued out of box, restricted to bolt-on improvements?
New, with a trip to a gunsmith for improvements?
Used?
Full custom?
Many choices.....
Really, any of the modern lightweight synthetic stock bolt action rifles made today, chambered in .308, will be a great starting spot. Add a receiver sight and remove the aperature to make it a ghost ring, make sure you have a good front sight, and scope to suit if desired.
Scout Rifle scopes work well and allow magazine top offs with ease, but some folks prefer a conventional scope mount. 2-7X scopes in conventional mounts are pretty darned good for almost anything.
Stick on a third sling mount just ahead of the magazine and add a Ching Sling, and go shoot it a lot.
My own rifle in .308? Remington 600 with carbon fiber stock, Burris IER scout scope, Williams aperature rear with aperature removed, factory front sight, and Ching Sling. It's one of the original Scout Rifle Conference prototypes and was owned by Eric Ching and sold after his death. But that's just mine, build anything close and shoot it as much as you can.
Willie
.
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I buy 308 by the pallet when funds allow, so shooting 308 chambered rifles is not an issue concerning ammo.
I like conventional mounted optics personally. More choices available, and works well for mounting NVS...which is one of my requirements, as it's legal where I live to hunt hogs in the middle of the night.
Another requirement is the rifle must be able to utilize a can. Again...legal where I'm from and has a positive impact concerning security. (Most folks in my state don't realize that all night hog dumping is legal here, so they sometimes call the cops upon hearing gunshots at 0'dark30.
I hunt hogs year around, and the last hog I hit was early this morning at 150yards in the dead of night.(3Gen NVS aint cheap by any standards imo...lol)
If the proverbial balloon ever goes up, I already have the tools for the rifle of choice, and 1st hand experience at using them now....vs afterwards. Anywhwere, anyplace, 24/7....day or night
Thanks for your imput.
I like conventional mounted optics personally. More choices available, and works well for mounting NVS...which is one of my requirements, as it's legal where I live to hunt hogs in the middle of the night.
Another requirement is the rifle must be able to utilize a can. Again...legal where I'm from and has a positive impact concerning security. (Most folks in my state don't realize that all night hog dumping is legal here, so they sometimes call the cops upon hearing gunshots at 0'dark30.
I hunt hogs year around, and the last hog I hit was early this morning at 150yards in the dead of night.(3Gen NVS aint cheap by any standards imo...lol)
If the proverbial balloon ever goes up, I already have the tools for the rifle of choice, and 1st hand experience at using them now....vs afterwards. Anywhwere, anyplace, 24/7....day or night
Thanks for your imput.
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barnbwt
member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2011
- Messages
- 7,340
Eh? Eh? Wacka-wacka!
That's more of a SHTF, or go-to-gun, or Uber-Gewere, or something. "General purpose" means intended for a range of commonly expected purposes --not all of them, and especially not wild outliers. If there is a chance you'll be shot down behind enemy lines over the Pine Barons, it behooves you to undertake the journey with some specific preparation (a bolt action which is rugged enough to survive re-entry, as well as legal in the state you happen to be careening towards).
If however, the reasons one happens to keep a particular gun handy are
A) personal defense and pest removal
B) hunting a wide array of game at short to med-long range
C) target shooting for fun at range
D) complying with local laws that limit your options in these areas
Then a semi-auto 308 is just fine; more than capable of doing all three of these, and even the fourth in most locales. I imagine the specifics change depending on which of the four sectors "lights up" brighter for a user's particular situation.
I totally agree that configurability is for chumps. Especially for ARs, in which the majority of the gun must be re-bought for each new caliber conversion. True switch barrels actually make some sense, if the trigger is nice enough to be warrant such practice and attention, but very few semi-autos work on that principle (the newer ones are turning that way, though). I do think it'd be neat for someone to make a two-part AK-style receiver that separates across the mag well, to accommodate any length cartridge the receiver ring is big enough for. A semi-auto as truly configurable as a Contender is kind of a cool idea (but it probably won't be cheap
)Oh, and to answer a previous question about the FNAR. It is fantastic. I would shoot it more than any other rifle I own if I wasn't on a milsurp kick at the moment. I didn't suggest it since the OP sounded pretty set on the M1 platform, and while the BAR action is great, it isn't what I'd start from on a "from-scratch" rifle design since it is a bit outdated (i.e. more complex than needed).
I frequently argue --much to the irritation of owners of other platforms I'm sure-- that it is a better deal than any competing 308 semi-auto for normal usage purposes (which I define as occasional-to-frequent, but not heavy, use, while keeping the rifle responsibly maintained). If FNH would make a truly "light" version with fewer steel rails, a pencil barrel, and lightweight folding stock, with iron sights --they'd have an M1A-killer. Not because the M1A is an inferior rifle (it is superior in many ways as we all know), but because the FNAR will perform better for the vast majority of shooters interested in a 308 semi auto (it's more accurate, great trigger, lightweight, has integral scope mount, adjustable stock, etc.). I wouldn't recommend it for someone who insists on dragging their rifle through mud and leaving it filthy, bump fires, or shoots underwater. But if you try to take reasonable care of your guns and don't melt barrels, it's a fantastic deal for the ~1000$ they go for. The biggest drawback is the lack of high-fives you get from other gun owners for buying one, and the 60$ magazines (which they won't be if FNH ever gets off its keester and makes them in quantity --my guess is they're busy making SCAR crap instead
). How many mags of 308 do you really feel like blowing through or carrying, anyway? I have 3 20 rounders, and a 10-er. 70 rounds of precision 308 is plenty to last me until break time, when I can deign to spend two minutes refilling them 
Suppressed FNAR: add a NV scope up top, emitter lamp/flash light to the forward rail, and a bipod = basically the perfect long-range pig-sticker
FNAR with Teludyne Straightjacket (aluminum+magic goo barrel sheath for reducing heat effects on accuracy). My guess is an integrally suppressed FNAR would look something like this
.TCB
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