IDPA rule changes.

[faustulus]

This usually starts the ball rolling
Personally I would love to get rid of the "get shot while I fumble with this mag" reload. And maybe a few stages with a higher round count, not all the time mind you, but occasionally.

 

[Don45cal]

Try IPSC/USPSA!! They do both!!

:ar15: :ar15: :ar15:

 

[motorep]

Well, it didn't take long to start this up again....faustulus- can't you be excommunicated for heresy or something for even suggesting something gamey? (!)

 

[faustulus]

I shoot IPSC also, but the more games the better. IDPA is easier to find here. I like both but each has things I would change. Humm that is a good idea for another thread.

can't you be excommunicated for heresy or something for even suggesting something gamey?

probably. But I maintain that reloading quickly isn't gamey just good sense.

 

[Correia]

I'm an IDPA shooter. I'm not really into IPSC.

But IDPA does have a couple of rules that I think are silly. Kneeling require you to put one knee on the ground. No squatting? I guess squatting is gamey or something. Personally I think a squat is faster to get into, faster to get out of, almost as stable, and is what I would do in real life anyway.

Tac reloads? Personally I think they are silly and I think that it would be a cold day in hell before I did a tac reload in an actual fight.

IPSC? I shot a USPSA 3 gun yesterday. You guys really need to get yourselves some holsters that will hold the gun in for something more strenuous than walking to the first shoot box.

 

[PvtPyle]

I understand playing to the lowest common intelligence, but those of us who carry daily and in the real world would like to be able to carry a loaded and holstered pistol, and a slung rifle (it doesn't have to be loaded). Alot of the stages seem to be made up to even the playing field from the hard core gamers. Not a big fan of that either.

I would just prefer to see it be more realistic in some of the rules. Stages are left to individual design, and I understand that you have to find a happy compromise in all things. Maybe a Military/LEO division would be good with adjusted rules for that class.

Oh, the 10rd pistol mag thing also bugs the crap out of me. be it a 9mm or .45, load it full. YOU chose that gun, suffer with the round capacity limitations (if you have one. Personally 18rds of .45 are enough for me)

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I suppose a simple anti gamer rule would be to only allow people to use the pistol that's listed on their CCW.



Tac reloads are pretty much only for when you're in a lull in the battle, and as such shouldn't be done under the clock.


If someone made a reliable target that only fell when hit with a hit that would be disabling to a human, the light loaded gamey ammo thing would sort itself out.


I like IDPA much more than I(m)PSC, because IDPA has a point to it.


I'd like to see a "field holster" class, where open carry military type rigs are allowed, as well as a little better system involving equipment classes.

 

[Navy joe]

-Disclaimer- IPSC shooter!

If it has a timer and you keep score, it's a game! I won't touch specific rules, but I think IDPA needs a stronger rule book that is much less open to interpretation. No rule set can last if there is a subjective note in it.

1 classifier? Get real! Everyone wants to brag if they are an IDPA grand wizard or whatever, not so hard if you can practice til it's perfect!

Larry, I use carry suitable holsters in USPSA, it's pretty common in L10 and Production it's kinda required. No leather, but drastic plastic. And if I do IDPA with the same guns and holsters I drop my mags just because. What are they gonna do, penalize me?

 

[CleverNickname]

I suppose a simple anti gamer rule would be to only allow people to use the pistol that's listed on their CCW.

That might work in California, but most other states don't require people list their guns on their license.

 

[Correia]

For me it is a given that they are all games. Usefull practice for your basic shooting skills of course, but they are still games. I'm not going to bash anybody's choice of game. I think that competition is the best practice you can get though outside of spending tons of money and going to shooting schools. (Of course if I had piles of cash laying around I would be going to every shooting school that I could). In the meantime I think that practical pistol shooting really helps your actual skill level.

I've had a few "ultimately tactical" folks tell me that IDPA or IPSC is just a game that will get you killed "on the street". Whatever, beats standing in front of a bench at the range, slowfiring a pretty group at 25 yards.

I'll agree on the classifier. It is no secret what it is, so if you practice those strings enough you will eventually classify pretty high. But it is a pretty decent test of basic shooting skills.

Pyle and I have had this discussion before. It is kind of a conundrum. If you have a division for a certain type of shooter you will have more of that shooter come out, but since you don't have very many of those shooters it isn't worth the administrative effort to make a class just for them, and since you don't have a class they don't come.

Also a cold range, while it is a pain for most of use who use guns and carry daily, we do have to cater to weekend plinkers too. Plus it is an IDPA rule because that is the standard rule on most of the ranges that clubs shoot on. I would love to run a hot range, but it ain't going to happen.

 

[PvtPyle]

Word around the camp fire is that the military is moving towards a more combat oriented shooting badge. That means that they will end up ahving those types of matches. Hopefully that will lead to a military oriented shooting club or class that will allow us to practice the way we would fight.

I understand that they are all games, but there are more than a few of us that do this for several reasons. Loving to shoot is just a great fringe benefit. We had a whole team of 19th guys at the last IDPA shoot. I bet if there was a match that was geared towards real world shooting, you would see more of them......(locally anyway)

 

[faustulus]

Pyle I agree with you about the mags. My friend and I were shooting at a club when they were explaining the a rule to my friend and said something along the lines of "in the real world" and my firend countered "in the real world my 15 round mag wouldn't be downloaded to 10."
The guy was cool and corrected himself and said "this is how this game is played."
I agree it is just a game, one I enjoy, just like IPSC.

I like IDPA much more than I(m)PSC, because IDPA has a point to it.

That point is?

 

[John Forsyth]

by PvtPyle
Oh, the 10rd pistol mag thing also bugs the crap out of me. be it a 9mm or .45, load it full. YOU chose that gun, suffer with the round capacity limitations (if you have one. Personally 18rds of .45 are enough for me)

The reason for the 10rd mag limit is to keep it such that anyone can play. The last time I looked 10rd Glock mags were $20 and standard capacity drop free mags were $75 and up. This is one of the reasons IDPA took off so fast, you do not need specific equipment to win.

I would like to see three changes. One, a Professional class above Master. Two, add another equipment class, Government Model. Three, change the times on the classifier to be all the same for all the bottom feeders.

As it is now, if the amateur shooter is good enough to move from Expert to Master, they might as well hang it up. There is no way for amateur shooters to beat guys like Rob Leatham, Scott Warren, or Dave Sevigney (spelling?). They shoot for a living. So give them their own class.

CDP is strictly for single stacks .45's. No wide bodies, no 10mm's, or any other caliber that can make major. Make a Government Model class and let it be for single stack .45's only. With this done, change CDP to true Custom pistols. Ten round mag limit so wide bodies can play with post ban mags. And any caliber that is .400 and above that can make major powerfactor is good to go. You have no idea how upset I was when 10mm was moved to ESP.

I have seen more than one shooter make expert in SSP, then declare ESP so they could stay a sharpshooter. And its legal to do it. Make expert in SSP with a qualifier of 120 or less. It takes a time of around 108 to do it in ESP. That's BS.

I think the rule book should be rewritten to remove the contradictions and generally put in a better format. But for the most part, I agree with the rules as written. Remember they have to be valid for 50 states as well as other countries.

Hey, just my $0.02.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Agreed with the tac load rule, that one needs to be written out. Ditto the kneeling rule. I shoot squatting frequently, and find that it makes more sense than putting a knee down.

There are no regular USPSA clubs near me, so I haven't had the opportunity to shoot it yet. But I'm sure that if I did, I'd have problems with some of their rules as well. I always did have this problem with rules...

- Chris

 

[PUMC_TomG]

I would also agree that the silly "tactical" reload rule should be written out. I'm sorry... but if I ever do that in a gunfight it will be in a lull of fire while behind cover... with only one shot left in the mag... and then only....

Also... yeah, squatting is a much more tactically sound way to shoot from a low position... easier to get the heck outta dodge from a kneel than a knee. You are also better able to pivot your body from a squat than a knee.

And Chris... yeah... I heard about you and rules.
I remember you griping about the mag. capacity all the time at Wildcat.

I would like to say that I agree with the 10 rd. limit... guys with the high cap wonder nines, etc.. def. have an "advantage" in the games... but by practicing with having less ammo than you would in a situation in my mind makes it more likely that you will use said ammo carefully.

 

[PvtPyle]

Well, when you are issued an M9, and that what you use in competitions as well, or if you have a highcap .45, and you carry that on a daily basis, it makes sense to compete like you live. I have a single stack .45 and use it, and carry it too sometimes, but in most cases it is a highcap.

I can see the reasoning in behind getting the gamers to an even playing field, but alot of us bring our daily carry pieces out and the whole "fight like you train" thing goes right out the window.

 

[Correia]

Look at it as a chance to practice your magazine changes.

I understand what you are saying, but if you look at the history behind IDPA you can see why they have the limited capacity rules. IPSC kind of self divided itself into two groups, one who wanted a fun and effective way to practice, the other wanted to win. The second group started to use stranger and stranger guns. The problem was that the first group still liked to win. (hey we are all competitors at heart, losing sucks!).

So IDPA was born. Limited number of rounds kept everybody on an even playing field. The idea being that if everybody had guns that were about equal it would be more of a test of skill and not gear.

That is one thing that I like about 3 Gun vs. IDPA. Run what you brung.

 

[GeneS]

I’ve been shooting IDPA since 1998 and for the most part I think they have done a decent job with the rules. Some of my .02:

Reloads my way: you can’t intentionally leave good live rounds behind. Reload when necessary or when you want, as long as you retain live rounds. Reload with retention, tac-load, slide lock are all OK. If you want to count rounds and drop an empty mag with one in the chamber that’s OK too, but if you leave rounds behind it’s three seconds. If the match director wants to force a reload, put more than eleven rnds. In the string or start with the gun downloaded.

The rule book needs to be clarified to make it less open to interpretation.

I like the 10 round rule. Partly, because until elected leaders get smarter, that’s the maximum capacity of new magazines sold to the general population in the US. Mostly, because it levels the playing field for the common pistols used for carry. A 13 shot Sig P228 might be your perfect service gun or CCW, but no way could it keep up with a 17 rnd. Glock 17 if the string required more than 14 shots.

I like the one classifier. Yeah, you could keep practicing it and probably qualify one class better than you really are, but then you just get busted by everybody else in that class. And if you shoot the whole 90 rnd. classifier at one time, as required, you’re not going to class much above your true ability.

 

[Jim Watson]

"If you want to count rounds and drop an empty mag with one in the chamber that’s OK too,"

That is NOT ok. It has been gone over considerably; you may NOT count rounds and drop an empty mag with a round still in the chamber. The applicable IDPA legal reload is a SLIDELOCK reload. There are only three IDPA legal reloads. The other two are the Tactical Reload and the Reload with Magazine Retention. It seems the Tac Load and the RWR are becoming equivalent, but I have not seen an official pronouncement on that yet. For now I take it that a Tac Load can be required and if it is, a Reload with Retention doesn't count.

"The rule book needs to be clarified to make it less open to interpretation."

Amen. A professional technical writer once offered to go through and rewrite it for free, between projects. He wasn't turned down, he was ignored.

"I like the 10 round rule. Partly, because until elected leaders get smarter, that’s the maximum capacity of new magazines sold to the general population in the US."

I don't *like* it, but I think it is wise for an organization founded after the ban on "high capacity ammunition feeding devices" to conform with the law and require its members to conform with the law. That is something that bothers me about USPSA. It has been 8 years since an American could buy a new 11+ shot magazine, yet USPSA keeps recruiting shooters and conducting matches for Open and Limited with no capacity limit. And taking advertising for shops "tuning" high capacity magazines. There are only two choices for a new Open shooter who wants to keep up; assemble magazines from "repair" parts in violation of the law; or pay scalpers' prices for magazines claimed to be "pre-ban" but with no documentation. Call it civil disobedience if you like, but it is not a way to run a competitive sport.

 

[GeneS]

Jim,

Sorry, I was not making myself clear in the post above when I was going on about reloads. Yes, you are 100% correct, there are only 3 legal reloads in IDPA. I was saying if it were up to me, there would be a 4th, drop a mag as long as it were empty, regardless of slidelock or 1 in the chamber. Also no required tac and/or reload with retention under the clock.

 

[Jim Watson]

OK, Gene.
No less a light than Jeff Cooper said you ought to be able to count your shots and reload with the last round in the chamber. I dunno about us ordinary shooters, though. I am now shooting SSR and trying hard to learn how to count to six again.

The great tendency has been to take Tac Loads off the clock. There was one Tac Load on the clock at the 2002 Nationals, as best I recall. I just consider it a dexterity test and go ahead.

Check out the Polite Society for a different angle on the problem.

 

[faustulus]

I have heard a good deal about taking reloads off the clock, but this seems a complex answer to a simple problem. There is no good reason for a "tatical" reload. Just dump it and let everyone reload however they want. In my opinion that is the one advantage IPSC has over IDPA, namely shooters are allowed to use their imagination when attacking a stage.

I wonder what will happen to Limited 10 and IDPA if the magazine ban sunsets.

 

[PvtPyle]

Well highcaps may be expensive, but in most states they are still legal. I dont see it as the org making itself "legal" after the ban, I see it as making the game playable to the cheap, or even less affluent. Nothing wrong with either of those things (we Mormons have been known to be notoriously cheap).

Andy, who would we talk to about getting 3 gun matches set up like the one you guys run in Vegas? That was a hoot! We knew going in that we had an I cecream cone in hells chance of winning, but we all leaned alot and it was A BLAST. To set up a game with those rules, who would we talk to, is there a National org?

 

[WESHOOT2]

MINOR WHINE

Only IDPA rule that grabs my crank is my Caspian 1911 is illegal because of its optic-fiber rod front / ghostring blade rear sighting system.
And it's never touched a ten-rd mag; it holds eight plus one.

Hardly racy, just practical.

Whine off.




----------------------------------------------------

"all my handguns are competition handguns, too"

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

*shrug* it all comes down to what kid of person you are. If you are a means justifies the ends person, then the rules don't matter, and you will train how you fight and shoot in IDPA or IPSC or SWPL or whatever how you will on the street.

You can't keep people who want to be gamers from being gamers, no matter what the rules.


I'd like IDPA to make the rules more conducive to allowing me to shoot how i will fight (which would be open carry from a field type holster since i don't have a CCW).