If Soviets had had the AK in WW2...

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Hawksnest

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I've always wanted to know everybody's opinion on the subject. Do you think the Russian death toll would have been lower during WWII if Kalashnikov had produced his famous AK-47 several years earlier to combat the Germans? I understand it was inspired by the StG-44, so you might be thinking that the Nazis would just make something based off of the AK-47 (why, I'm not sure).

So how about it, would the horrendous siege of Stalingrad have been just a small skirmish, or do you think it wouldn't have made a difference at all?
 
It would have made a difference, but it would have been impossible.

Because the Soviets Kidnapped Schmeisser and alot of other Germans who REALLY designed the AK... and then were sent off to die in the soviet Gulog (SP?) Except the ones they had already killed.

Kalashnikov Didn't invent (Self edit) "Stuff"

...They have only reciently BEGAN to admit it.
 
Wars are won by artillery, aircraft, armor and logistics, not by individual soldiers with rifles. Maybe the war would have ended a month earlier if the AK had been in production in 1943 or so, or maybe the Germans would have ramped up the STG to match the AK.

By 1944, a significant portion of the German army was armed with the STG 44 and G43, but that fact didn't seem to bother the British who were still carrying Lee Enfields.

.
 
STG 44 came along too late, and not in enough numbers:time to do any significant 'turnning' of the tide. (What, less than half a million total production, with over 18 Million in the german army, to say nothing of all the other forces?)

Besides, we had things like BAR's in answer.

As to "The rifleman's importance'

You can bomb to your hearts content (And don't misunderstand me, Air Supreiority etc is EXTREMELY important) But UNTIL you have a MAN with a rifle, standing on the ground, saying:

"This is my ground, and if you try to take it, I will shoot you with this rifle."

You don't control it.

This has been proven time and time again. From Us shelling the Islands in the Pacific during the island hopping campain, to 'Slick Willie' Dropping all those Million Dollar Missles into tents and sand dunes to shift attention from his cigars, to when I toted a SAW into Faluja in 2004.

And I expect it'll be that way for a long time to come.
 
They didn't have enough ammo during much of WWII for a Mosin much less an AK. More men than ammo or rifles.
 
Nomad said:
the Soviets Kidnapped Schmeisser and alot of other Germans who REALLY designed the AK
well that's a conspiracy theory that fits the facts well and I wouldn't put it past them to create a hero of soviet socialist design out of a captured german designers but is there a reputable link you'd like to share?

Kodiak said:
Wars are won by artillery, aircraft, armor and logistics, not by individual soldiers with rifles.
yes. the soviets already had the T-34. a very effective tank suited towards mass production. the germans were cut off from oil resources.

It's kind of a scary thought if the soviets were more effective. I mean you could be looking at further soviet domination of europe as well as a soviet korea, hokkaido, manchuria, etc. but how could they have been in the circumstances to create the AK? They would have to be prepared for war but they were not at all prepared. Stalin thought Hitler was his best buddy with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and was in the midst of a large purge of the Red Army at the beginning of the war in europe.
 
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i think that there is an element of truth in all of this. Artillery, as stalin said, is "the god of war" air superiority is essential for your infantry "the queen of the battlefield" and your armour to work in. BUT what really won WW2 in europe was the industrial might of the USA and USSR traken with the russian disregard for casualties. this meant that even though the german tanks destroyed 5 shermans per tank of thiers. they destroyed 12 T34's per german tank.... it just didn't matter because there was always more to be poured in. Russian soldiers didn't even have a rifle each at the early points of the war. But they continued to be poured in. some russian tanks came out with no paint on them, but thats ok.... because there were loads and loads of them.

so yes, we talk about whats best, about the american and british fighting spirit. About different guns, rifles etc.

it didn't really matter. your industrial muscle and your economy won

i don't think that the addition of the AK would help really.
 
Interlok hit the nail on the head. They were simply overwhelmed.

Germany lost the war because of Hitler trying to play general.

Had he left it to the Generals there may have been a very different outcome.
 
The outcome would never have been different. In the entire history of 20 and 21 century, wars have been won, but nobody has "won" peace sofar.
Wars are won by industrial strenght and logistics.
Peace is won trough the harts of the people. Nazi's would not be able to do so. There were resistance groups active in every country they had taken, even in Germany itself. (the Nazi's called them terrorists by the way)

Greeting from Belgium, country of fine beers, chocolats and firearms

Peter
 
interlock said:
russian disregard for casualties
whats to live for? die on the battlefield a hero or in a gulag as a counter-revolutionary. not to mention russian cuisine.

According to legend, a man from Sybaris, a city in southern Italy infamous for its luxury and gluttony, said he understood why the Spartans were so willing to die after having tasted their black soup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_soup
 
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When you view Hitler and Stalin they were both thugs/butchers of humanity. As WW2 erupted they divided Poland amongst themselves. Allies of WW2 were more or less my enemy’s enemy is my friend in regards to Russia. To almost the very end Russia stayed out of the war with Japan.
 
I've always wondered what would have happened if Patton had M1 Abrams tanks.

It's not really a viable stand alone -- M1s would have won any tank on tank fight they got into with WW2 competitors when fueled up and ready to go, but with WW2 logistics -- even American -- they'd mostly have been so restricted on mobility it probably would have actually dragged out the war.
 
When was the 7.62x39 round first produced in large numbers? Are real AK's select fire? Thanks!
 
I've always wondered what would have happened if Patton had M1 Abrams tanks.

Hitler thought the same thing, and tried his damnedest to make it happen. Since his/German thinking and doctrine at the time was always about the invincible hero who would slay the fatherland's enemies: Jochen Piper, Hans Rudel, Gunther Rall etc. Fortunately for us, He was constantly re-tooling his factories so they were not producing anything. Instead of having 100 pkzw Mk 4's, they had one Tiger II, which subsequently ran out of gas, and was captured by 2 Russian conscripts armed with one nagant pistol between them.
 
As the Germans retreated toward Berlin, special squads of machine gunners equipped with MG34's and 42's were created on the spot to set up ambushes against the advancing Soviet military. Field reports claim they were successful where used. The German Army nonetheless had to keep falling back against numerical superiority.

The Russians had more soldiers, vastly more artillery, more tanks, more aircraft, and were finally being led by experienced ground commanders who could respond to attack and plan counterattack. What's missing from many of these discussions is a view that the forces at the commanders disposal aren't just soldiers with guns, but an orchestra of crew served weapons, and a large train of supplies feeding them. Changing just one weapon in the soldiers hands doesn't really affect the overall effectiveness. In fact, as the comment on British weapons points out, you can fight with weapons that are technically and tactically inferior - and win. HOW you fight with what you have is far more important that what you fight with.

To put it in different terms, "If the Soviets had AK's" could be compared to "If the Confederates had lever actions." What then? Ammo shortages. Neither had the ammo production capability for a exponential increase in ammo supply. As said, the Soviets already had problems early on with having enough guns at all. American Lend Lease didn't fill in all the gap, and Soviet industrial capacity was pretty weak to begin with.

The result of Ak's coming into the fray a few years earlier would have meant the Germans shifting production away from the bolt actions they still produced in increasing numbers right up to the end of the war. It took occupying the ground to stop it. Bombs couldn't.

Lincoln dealt with the same problem, a desire to move to the lever action and a military who wouldn't. We always seem to put down the decision makers who won't accept newer firearms, but the issue remains whether it actually adds a great deal of effective power on the battleground. Often not - it's really just an incremental increase, and the other 80% of the army in the field isn't helped at all. They don't use a rifle as their primary tool. They drive, type, and input coordinates. You could give them 5 pound full auto guns with 250 round mags in a .308 equivalent power level, and they would still just qualify with it more than shoot it in self defense.

Individuals focus on their weapon, generals focus on their systems. You win a war because your system was more effective than the opposition.
 
Wars are won by artillery, aircraft, armor and logistics, not by individual soldiers with rifles.

UNTIL you have a MAN with a rifle, standing on the ground, ... You don't control it.

It helps to have an army of soldiers holding the ground and protecting the supply lines to the artillery and armor, otherwise when the battleships return to port and the bombers return to base, the artillery and armor are on their lonesome.

Old cliche: an army travels on its stomach; the three points of victory are logistics, logistics, logistics. I have heard repeatedly that WWII was won by the Liberty ships and the C47s that transported supplies to the front lines. I would add the 2 1/2 ton truck. How did the Germans lose the Battle of the Bulge? They outran their supply line.

To opening post: Logistics relates to theoretical early introduction of the AK47 and its effect on WWII. Could the Soviets supply sufficient AK47 ammo to give the volume of fire necessary to make the AK47 useful? Objection raised was that they had trouble suppling 7.62x54R for Mosin Nagant bolt actions (I believe that is an impression from the siege of Stalingrad, which was almost surrounded). However, the Soviets had large units armed with only PPSh41 submachineguns and apparently had no problem supplying vast quantities of 7.62x25mm.

Side note: The AK design was started in Russia as a response to battlefield encounters with the MP43/MP44/StG44 German assault rifles. Hugo Schmeisser was taken to Izhvesk 24 Oct 1946 to work on weapons; Kalashnikov had already been working on what became the AK-47. There are too many differences between the StG44 and AK47 bolt locking design, fire control group, safety, etc. to credit Schmeisser with "creating" the AK, although he may well have improved the AK design based experience developing the StG44.
 
Does it really matter? Russia was just as evil as Germany and perhaps more so. Stalin killed something like 34 million of his own people. The lesser of two evils is still evil. I tend to agree with General Patton as to what we should have done with Russia.
 
When you view Hitler and Stalin they were both thugs/butchers of humanity.

Neither would have been important without a legion of supporters. No dictator rules alone.

Mr. Kalashnikov didn't "design" the AK-47.

To be fair, Stoner did not design the M16 either. The mechanical drawing for what became the M16 were done by L. James Sullivan and another Armalite employee who's name escapes me at the moment. It was more than a simple rescale of the AR-10, although to be fair to Stoner, the basic concept was still his.
 
To be fair, I never said anything about Stoner or the M16. :)

The AR10 was the brainchild of Stoner, he did most of the design work. When he joined Armalite there were 9 employees total, including him. He was he lead engineer and the AR10 was his idea.

Later, Stoner delegated the task of redesigning the AR10 concept and making it into what became known as the AR15. The engineers responsible for this redesign were his chief assistant Robert Fremont and Jim Sullivan. Stoner then went on to design the AR18 after the rights to the AR15 were sold to Colt.
 
How did the Germans lose the Battle of the Bulge? They outran their supply line.

It was way more complicated than that. Their entire plan predicated capturing allied fuel dumps. They had no gas for the attack anyway.

2nd, they counted on the bad weather to last at least another week so they could move out of the Bastogne area and into cover further west to keep from being decimated by allied air cover.

Even had Bastogne fallen, Patton's third army would have enveloped them from the south east and they'd have been surrounded and wiped out.

Had Ike not taken Patton's gas and ammo away several months earlier the "Bulge" never would have happened as the German's would have had to move south to counter his strike.

If not for politics the war would have been over much sooner.

Logistics won the war no doubt, but we made sooo many critical mistakes that overwhelming material support was the only way we were ever going to win.

Had Hitler not stopped the German army from immediately counter attacking the beaches at Normandy, the invasion may well have failed entirely.
 
it would have helped the soviets, but not as much as one might think. it might have made for a more agressive russia after the war. they might have held more of germany after the war. like others stated they succumbed to overwhelming forces on all sides.
 
Americans armed with single shot Blackpowder Springfield Trapdoors beat Spaniards armed with M1892 and M1893 7mm smokeless Mausers in Cuba and the Philippines

I have no doubt that if the Soviets had massive numbers of AK47’s in WWII the Germans would have lost more men and the Americans would have got off their duff and adopted a service rifle with a box magazine in 1946 instead of 1957.

AK’s would not made much of a difference in all the Russians lost when the Germans invaded Russia. Stalin did not believe “his friends”, the Nazi’s, would invade Russia. Russia was totally unprepared and lost at least a million men in the first couple of months of the war.
 
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