If we were in Europe....
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RobW
Member
Quiet difficult, because .45 is 11.43 mm. Can you imagine calling a round 11.43 millimeter?
"Eleven-five" would be possible. But, it will (hopefully) never happen, there is too much history for the .45!
"Eleven-five" would be possible. But, it will (hopefully) never happen, there is too much history for the .45!
Spieler
Member
11.43x23mm
Mike Irwin
Member
Didn't the Norwegians call it the 11.4x23?
tiberius
Member
The Norwegians referred to it as "11.25mm" - I believe because they already had a different round named "11.4mm". I believe they called ther first Colt's Automatics they purchased as "11.25 m/m AUTOMATISK PISTOL MODEL 1914".
Mike Irwin
Member
Just pulled out my 1989 DoD Identification Guide: Military Small Caliber Ammunition, by Rhino Publishing.
It's listed as Index No. 18, 11.43x23, AKA, among other names, the 11.25 Norwegian. I had never noticed that before. Thanks for the info, Tiberius!
It's listed as Index No. 18, 11.43x23, AKA, among other names, the 11.25 Norwegian. I had never noticed that before. Thanks for the info, Tiberius!
TallPine
Member
Or how about 7.62 mm ?
Or how about 5.56 mm ?
Sleuth
Member
It would not matter what we called it, because we would not be allowed to own them! We could only look at pictures of what free people can own!
trooper
Member
Wellllll.... you COULD own one.
After you waited for a year, persuaded the local representative of your shooting association to fill out and sign a form that says "Mr. XYZ needs a handgun for the following reasons", passed a proficiency test, passed a psychological examination (if you're under 25 yrs.), bought a HUGE safe, carried said form to the county authorities, paid some more money in fees, and then waited some more...
This sucks.
After you waited for a year, persuaded the local representative of your shooting association to fill out and sign a form that says "Mr. XYZ needs a handgun for the following reasons", passed a proficiency test, passed a psychological examination (if you're under 25 yrs.), bought a HUGE safe, carried said form to the county authorities, paid some more money in fees, and then waited some more...
This sucks.
Kobun
Member
tiberius is right.
The .45 ACP was called the 11,25 mm Auto Pistol M/1914
You can see more at kongsbergcolten.com. Click on "bilder av..." to see the pictures.
The Colt pistol was produced at Kongsberg VÃ¥penfabrikk.
During WWII, the germans continued production.
Quite a few pistols produced during the war, never got into german hands.
The gunsmiths built many, that were smuggled out of the factory.
They didn't have the usual serial numbers. Some were without, some had custom numbers.
These guns are sought-after today, and many are still not registerd.
One noticable differens between a 1911, and a Kongsberg Colt, is the slide stop.
If you look at the picture, you will see that it is extedned down, to let the operator release the slide with his thumb.
Many of the old magazines I have seen has a lanyard loop on the bottom.
The .45 ACP was called the 11,25 mm Auto Pistol M/1914
You can see more at kongsbergcolten.com. Click on "bilder av..." to see the pictures.
The Colt pistol was produced at Kongsberg VÃ¥penfabrikk.
During WWII, the germans continued production.
Quite a few pistols produced during the war, never got into german hands.
The gunsmiths built many, that were smuggled out of the factory.
They didn't have the usual serial numbers. Some were without, some had custom numbers.
These guns are sought-after today, and many are still not registerd.
One noticable differens between a 1911, and a Kongsberg Colt, is the slide stop.
If you look at the picture, you will see that it is extedned down, to let the operator release the slide with his thumb.
Many of the old magazines I have seen has a lanyard loop on the bottom.
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Kobun
Member
Oh, and Sleuth...
Europe is in fact a pretty large place you know.
Many countries, different laws.
Europe is in fact a pretty large place you know.
Many countries, different laws.
Sleuth
Member
But with the Euro, I thought it had turned into one big happy gun free country! (I know better, I'm just kidding!)
In fact, I have a Norway .45 (Was it the M1927?) in my collection, all matching with 2 spare mags, also serial numbered to the gun, all in new condition. I'll have to dig it out and check the serial number. I don't recall if it had any Nazi proofs. What kinds of special serial numbers were put on the guns?
In fact, I have a Norway .45 (Was it the M1927?) in my collection, all matching with 2 spare mags, also serial numbered to the gun, all in new condition. I'll have to dig it out and check the serial number. I don't recall if it had any Nazi proofs. What kinds of special serial numbers were put on the guns?
Nordic 1911s
Kobun:
That is one handsome 1911! I love the idea of the 'smiths sneaking them out under the noses of the Nazis.
1911s...defiance of fascist scum...serial-number-less pistols...
Makes me feel all warm & fuzzy inside.
Well, "A .45 by any other name would hit as hard." (with all due respect to Wm Shakespeare and JMB, two masters of their crafts)
Kobun:
That is one handsome 1911! I love the idea of the 'smiths sneaking them out under the noses of the Nazis.
1911s...defiance of fascist scum...serial-number-less pistols...
Makes me feel all warm & fuzzy inside.
Well, "A .45 by any other name would hit as hard." (with all due respect to Wm Shakespeare and JMB, two masters of their crafts)
Nightcrawler
Member
Kind of silly putting the lanyard loop on the magazine, since you change magazines. Especially since there's one on the butt of the gun anyways.
tiberius
Member
It's a calvary thing. Magazines were expensive and they didn't want to lose them.
Sleuth
Member
IIRC, there was a special cavelry lanyard for the 1911 with 2 snaps on the end. The idea was you could hit the mag release, drop (but retain) the empty mag, reload, and continue without losing control of your horse!
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Kobun
Member
Sleuth, I'm no expert on the Kongsberg Colts, but you are lucky to have one.
The way I've heard they smugled the guns, was in parts, and then assembled them at home.
I believe the serial numbers ranged from none, to names etc.
Unfortunatly the one in the picture is not one of my guns.
(One of the few that I post here that isn't mine).
Putting a lanyard loop on the magazine is a smart thing when you think about when and where they were built.
Not too many 1911 magazines floating around...
Just make sure you don't slap the mag in when you handle one. (Like I did!)
The way I've heard they smugled the guns, was in parts, and then assembled them at home.
I believe the serial numbers ranged from none, to names etc.
Unfortunatly the one in the picture is not one of my guns.
(One of the few that I post here that isn't mine).
Putting a lanyard loop on the magazine is a smart thing when you think about when and where they were built.
Not too many 1911 magazines floating around...
Just make sure you don't slap the mag in when you handle one. (Like I did!)
Known as "lunch box Colts" (matpakke-colter), referring to the method by which at least some of the gun parts were smuggled out of the factory.
I have seen some without any markings at all, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are also "lunch box" guns with parts that were stamped by German quality control before "disappearing". I know that happened with a substantial number of Sten gun parts that were produced under German supervision. The supervisors obviously didn't know what those parts were for, the paperwork would say things like "gear box thangamajigg". In this case what they didn't know actually could hurt them.
Sleuth
Member
Kobun, I dug mine out of the safe. It is heavily parkerized, serial # 30XXX, with the last three digits stamped on the safety, trigger, and slide stop. The slide is marked "1945" over what looks like a script "R". It is a M1914 11.25MM, with only one magazine, which may not be original.
Oddly, the hammer and fireing pin retraining plate are bright.
I suspect this may be a post war production gun.
M67, were they making Stens in Norway, or the German modified versions?
Oddly, the hammer and fireing pin retraining plate are bright.
I suspect this may be a post war production gun.
M67, were they making Stens in Norway, or the German modified versions?
Sleuth, sorry I was a bit unclear. 1911/1914 model Colts were produced by the Germans on equipment they found at the Kongsberg factory. Some of these pistols were smuggled out by Norwegian workers who were members of the resistance. So far everything is clear.
Then I had to mention Stens.
No, the Germans did not produce Stens in Norway.
The Norwegian resistance on the other hand, did. I think it started as an experiment to see if it was feasible. I believe the total production number was around a thousand or so, I don't remember and I don't think anyone has an exact number anyway. It didn't make a huge difference, most of the resistance's guns were obtained by other means, but it is an interesting story.
The parts for these Stens were produced at different metal shops and shipyards and the like, mostly in or around Oslo. These companies were of course under some form of control by the occupying forces, so the production had to be covert. Usually someone in the management, as a senior engineer for example, made "camoflaged" drawings of whatever Sten part that was to be produced, called it something else and slipped the work order into the pile. The parts were then produced without either the rest of the Norwegian staff or the German security people knowing what it really was. They did of course not produce enough parts in one place to arouse suspicion. And it's not like a Sten looks much like a gun in the first place, which probably made things easier.
The only part of the process that was done in secrecy was the rifling and chambering of the barrels, and final assembly of course. I think the barrel blanks were called "hydraulic pipe" or something similar for the benefit of those who didn't need to know. I heard one story about a shipyard worker who was making these without knowing what it was, until he held one up to the light and looked through it, exactly the way a person will look through a gun barrel to see if it is clean. He then proclaimed in a loud voice (for the benefit of any listening Germans) that he refused to continue working on that project: "This looks like a ***ing Schmeisser barrel, I will not make any ***ing guns for the ***ing Germans." The resistance man who knew what it really was, probably had a bowel movement involving bricks. The production was immediately moved somewhere else...
Sorry about the digression, once I get started I have a tendency to ramble... but at least it is gun related rambling.
PS: To get back to the topic of the thread, I think one of the names the Germans had for those M1914's in .45 acp was "die kleine Kanone". (That's German for "the little cannon", in case some of you linguistically challenged Americans didn't get it )
Then I had to mention Stens.
No, the Germans did not produce Stens in Norway.
The Norwegian resistance on the other hand, did. I think it started as an experiment to see if it was feasible. I believe the total production number was around a thousand or so, I don't remember and I don't think anyone has an exact number anyway. It didn't make a huge difference, most of the resistance's guns were obtained by other means, but it is an interesting story.
The parts for these Stens were produced at different metal shops and shipyards and the like, mostly in or around Oslo. These companies were of course under some form of control by the occupying forces, so the production had to be covert. Usually someone in the management, as a senior engineer for example, made "camoflaged" drawings of whatever Sten part that was to be produced, called it something else and slipped the work order into the pile. The parts were then produced without either the rest of the Norwegian staff or the German security people knowing what it really was. They did of course not produce enough parts in one place to arouse suspicion. And it's not like a Sten looks much like a gun in the first place, which probably made things easier.
The only part of the process that was done in secrecy was the rifling and chambering of the barrels, and final assembly of course. I think the barrel blanks were called "hydraulic pipe" or something similar for the benefit of those who didn't need to know. I heard one story about a shipyard worker who was making these without knowing what it was, until he held one up to the light and looked through it, exactly the way a person will look through a gun barrel to see if it is clean. He then proclaimed in a loud voice (for the benefit of any listening Germans) that he refused to continue working on that project: "This looks like a ***ing Schmeisser barrel, I will not make any ***ing guns for the ***ing Germans." The resistance man who knew what it really was, probably had a bowel movement involving bricks. The production was immediately moved somewhere else...
Sorry about the digression, once I get started I have a tendency to ramble... but at least it is gun related rambling.
PS: To get back to the topic of the thread, I think one of the names the Germans had for those M1914's in .45 acp was "die kleine Kanone". (That's German for "the little cannon", in case some of you linguistically challenged Americans didn't get it
)Sleuth
Member
M67, thanks, that is a facinating bit of history!
BTW, note that my M1914 is parkerized, not blued as in the photo Kobun posted. I do not think it was ever refinished. I have never shot it, I just keep it next to the 3 Argentine variations of the .45.
BTW, note that my M1914 is parkerized, not blued as in the photo Kobun posted. I do not think it was ever refinished. I have never shot it, I just keep it next to the 3 Argentine variations of the .45.
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