Imagine this scenario.. it could very well happen.

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This scenario - the stop and rob - has been discussed on every gun list and in every gun class in the USA.

After reading all this - you realize that Jeff has summarized the wisdom of every serious student of this problem.

I would also recommend that before one glibly offers the commando solution - one tries it a few times in FOF exercises. It will open your eyes and make you realize that your THR plan to win the battle easily can just disappear into the fog of combat - even in a store.

One thing - you threaten the clerk. A neat response is to shoot the clerk and then you while standing there trying to figure out what happened. Seen this done.

I have been Simmunitioned by the backup guy that I totally missed. I have been shot by the hero who missed the BG. Oops.

Money isn't important. Leave your ego at home and dreams of heroism are worth what you leave in the toilet. You approach the situation so that people come out unhurt. With that in mind, do what it takes.
 
Im not a LE or anything other than a guy with a CCW, but I agree with Jeff, and sw442642 in that you need to forget the heroism. However, IMHO it all comes down to whether ya think that BG is gonna drop the clerk. Thats the most important decision that I think I would have to make. If I really think the store clerk is getting ready to eat lead, then Im gonna shoot. There are a bunch of IF's IF i have the opportunity I will move to a better position so that if I miss or over penetrate things will be ok.. I will look around to see IF I can see any of the BGs friends...

I figure that for the first 3 or 4 seconds or so, your just gonna be in shock. The old brain housing group is going to be working overtime to get past that shot of adrenaline that just hit your system and shot your judgement all to hell. That startle response and the adrenal pump from my sympathetic nervous system is going to be my first and most imediate problem, because I cant act until I get a grasp on the situation. Im not talking about fear really.. im talking about confusion. That deer in headlights look. The only thing in my experience that I can equate to that type of situation is an in flight emergency in an aircraft. Ya cant do anything right till ya get that brain workin. I hope that I will use concealment, and quietly draw my weapon.. I hope that the firing lane is clear if I have to shoot. If it is my perception that the guy is going to drop the clerk.. then I hope my aim is true, that those thousands of rounds in training have improved my index, and that I have the situational awareness to do the job right. From what I have read the only thing at this point that ya can hope to rely on is a well trained index. In studies that I have read the gun fight participants rarely ever saw the sights.

My cousin was just out walking with his dog one day when a wounded buck attacked his dog and was trying to kill it. My cousin (a probation parol officer and 20 yr Army Major) was very familiar with weapons and was carrying a pistol on him at the time. After he had killed the deer he told me in an embarassed moment, that it had taken him forever to get the gun clear of the holster .. then in the stress of the situation he forgot to remove the safety and ended up trying to fire the weapon with the safety engaged. He eventually got things together and did what he had to do to save his dog, but it goes to show that the situation can get ahead of ya and I think thats the biggest issue with any type of confrontation with a BG. Its almost always going to be on the BGs terms. He is putting you in the situation.. so your gonna start behind the curve. How far behind the curve depends on alot of things. Did your situational awareness pick up the signs of a problem far enough ahead? Have you trained with your weapon so that you have some sort of developed draw, presentation and index to your shooting, or are you going to be fumbling for the safety? Have you tried to prepare your mind for such an event? I figure that if the brain is working ya can try to make the best of a bad situation. If its not working well, your just screwed and your either going to let someone get killed, your gonna get yourself killed, and maybe your gonna kill an innocent or something.

The mind is the most important weapon.. even in the gun fight.

My two cents... your mileage may vary
 
In the situation i decribed you would'nt have the time to decifer what to do.
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Then you should not be carrying a weapon - period.

If he has an accomplice, i doubt he going to come to his buddies assistance
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Hope your right, your betting three lives on your judgement, but know this, you can NEVER know what"s going on in another persons mind. Esp, some scummer who's perpatrating a forcible felony.

Get real.

12-34hom.
 
I guess my tactical training would be in acquiring the skill necessary to hit a head sized target at 15 feet with a soda bottle. (in Maryland we aren't allowed to carry:( ).
 
"This ain't Dodge City and you ain't Bill Hickok." All the pertinent considerations are covered in these 3 pages of posts. NIce work folks. Anti-gun=pro-rape.
 
I would quietly move to a place where I had some cover or at least concealment.
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Thats the first thing i thought of. After that i'd draw, cause if the SHTF i dont want to be doing it then.
 
While everyone else in the store was distracted I would fill my pockets with Hostess fruit pies and then slip out the back.

:D
 
Anyone here ever been in a room where someone else was being shot at?

I have, as a 19 year old in college. A guy chased his ex into the student union. She fell, he straddled her, and shot her 5/6 times.

As soon as the first shot went off the table was over turned, and I made my best impression of a piece of paper on the floor. After making sure that we were not the targets and that the guy was leaving my friends and I left at a high rate of speed in the opposite direction.

You never know how you will react until it happens. I did not have a gun then but, now with a gun, I'd react the same I hope. We were too far away for a good shot. The people behind the guy were NOT the best backstop.

Sometimes the best course of action is no action.
 
Ooooooooo! I like the what if's!!!!

According to Minnesota law, in this situation you can shoot the BG. He is threatening bodily harm to another - this is different in different states. That said, I wouldn't shoot. I'd *try* to see if I can take cover, if I could I'd draw, but stay still. I wouldn't shoot unless I had to to save me.

I know we don't know for sure how we'd react, but it's good to think about this so if this situation comes up, your brain has at least taken a dry run. I do a lot of hiking and my biggest concern is stray agressive dogs. A few weeks ago I was out in a very rural wooded area and confronted by 2 dogs. So I drew, pointed and stood still. They stopped about 15 feet from me - don't know why, maybe a defensive stance? - then retreated. No shots fired. I went through that senario many times before this, and I did pretty much what I thought. Granted, humans attacking is a whole different story, but I think it's good to think about this stuff.
 
Since the BG doesn't immediately start blasting away, I'd look as inconspicuous as possible and study the situation. Move behind cover or even slip out if I can. I'm not going to risk people's lives (including my own) over the contents of a cash register. Duh.
 
I think Sludge and Jeff White have some great points.

The real key in self defense is situational awareness. Once that fails you then have a major problem. Once the BG already has his gun pointed at someone it becomes very difficult for you to resolve it by force. Only if you are sure that he is going to shoot whether he gets what he wants or not should you pull your gun in that situation.

Once the gun is pointed at someone if you shoot him there is the risk of reflexive muscle action causing him to shoot the person he has his gun pointed at (even if he is dead). If you don't kill him he already has his gun pointed at someone, he might just be mad enough (or in shock enough) to pull the trigger. Too many things can go bad.

Stay alert, if you sense something about to go down pay very close attention. Once you miss the warning signs you really don't have many options. In the scenario listed it is safer to play the odds that about 90% of armed robbers do not shoot if they get what they want. If you see the guy when he is pulling the gun out, and before it is pointed at the clerk, that is a different story.

In my case, since the question was what would you do, I wouldn't do anything. If I was carrying I'd have to be doubly sure that it was truly a life and death situation and not just a theft. In MD carry is illegal and if I would be to carry I would be facing jail time for illegal carry even if I was saving my own or someone else's life- certainly not worth it to save the local stop and rob the money in the cash register.
 
Well about the dumbest thing you can do is stand there rubbernecking. Take cover.

This scenario happened to a friend of mine while working a 7-11, he was in the cooler restocking when someone pulled a stop and rob. he got behind as much cover as he could and took notes on the bad guy's dress and looks. Robber was stopped a few blocks from the store. Still had the sandwich he stole in his pocket.

That was before most folks even had cell phones.

On the other hand.. and this is serious.

What if the robber pops the clerk and heads for the door? Do you draw, chase, or give assistance to the clerk? Chances are he'll be out the door before you can clear leather.
 
Posted by No Spin Zone...
Ok. So here is what I would do.

I'd pull my weapon while quietly making my way to the BG. If he has an accomplice waiting outside, I doubt he is going to come to his friend's assistance. I figure he's gonna split the scene. See ya! So, I get withing 10 feet of this creep, point my weapon at him and tell him to freeze! If he turns to look at me and his weapon is directed towards me I fire my .45 and keep him covered while telling the clerk to call 911.
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I take it that you have little concept of self preservation in gun fights. Ideally, you should find cover. If there is no cover available, then movement and distance are your friends. Moving targets are harder to hit than stationary ones and distant harder to hit than closer targets.

You asked what we would do with the situation and then what we would do if the gun went "click." Let's see, first you closed range on the bad guy and your gun went click. The suspect turns and goes through the process of beginning to shoot you and you find your bowels let loose before they would have which is likely what they will after he shoots you dead.

I really liked the part about where you noted that if the guy had an accomplice outside that you didn't think the accomplice would come to the rescue. Underestimating your enemy is a sort of naive mistake many folks don't get to make twice. Besides, what makes you think he has only one accomplice and that single accomplice is outside? From as you described the situation, you had bad situational awareness to start with and then you described having target fixation and showed no regard for any other aspect of what was going on.

You know, the real question is not what WE would do. What WE would do does not matter. What you should be asking yourself is what you would do given the fact that your tactical naivete will likely betray your personal safety.
 
You guys have all got it wrong.
Saunter up the aisle, letting your spurs jingle a bit more than necessary. When the blackhat looks at you, deliver your prepared line:
"Skin that smokewagon, see what happens."
This will confuse the robber, because his "smokewagon" is already "skinned". Before the look of consternation can clear his face, draw your SAA and fan-fire it into his chest and head (2 cycles of the Mozambique drill, please).

Then ride off into the sunset.

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I agree with Jeff White and others. Find cover, draw, watch and wait. Shooting starts or seems unavoidable, do my best to stop the robber without hurting anyone else. Otherwise, remember details and write them down as soon as I can do so safely.
 
The first thing I would do is find cover, and I would probably draw my gun or have my hand at my waist ready to draw. If the clerk's life looked as if it was about to come to a premature end, I think human compassion would cause me to throw caution to the wind and kill the SOB.

But I certainly wouldn't draw or shoot if it looked like the criminal wasn't going to shoot anyone. You are getting into shaky legal territory any time you draw and fire your weapon, and I would only do it if I were pretty darned sure somebody's life was about to end.
 
Dr.Rob said:

What if the robber pops the clerk and heads for the door? Do you draw, chase, or give assistance to the clerk? Chances are he'll be out the door before you can clear leather.

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Help the clerk. The violence has stopped and someone needs help. It is doubtful that use of lethal force will continue outside (it might but all is probability). Chasing folks is subject to a great deal of ambiguity. Threatening lethal force against the fleeing dude is suspect in many places. You have to have justification to use lethal force in pursuit as if you think that not using will cause immediate harm (not future crime waves).

Also, what is your goal state? To save your butt. Well the bad guy is gone. If you do pursue, you can get killed. Of course, all of us are gun whizzes and that won't happen. :barf:

I say stay safe and help the clerk. Call the law.
 
I would stop. Look for cover. From cover I would formulate an escape plan. Once I had an escape plan. Execute it. I would draw my weapon during escape. I would only use deadly force if I was directly threatened & prevented from escape. Once clear I would use my cell phone to call the cops.
 
Let the situation play itself out.

If it appears that the clerk is going to be perforated, then act.
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I agree, but if he pointed the gun at anyone for more than a second I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them in the head. I just couldn't live with myself if I let somebody die and I had the power to stop it.

If this happened and I was in the back of the store I would unholster and watch what happened. If the gunman saw me and called me to the front or pointed the gun at me I would start shooting A.S.A.P.

They get what they asked for.

I assume this is what I would do, but I can't say for certain because there are so many variables.
 
In the state I live in the use of Deadly Force is authorized to protect your own life or the life of others. Depending on how one interprets the law it may be allowed to protect ones own property.

In the situation described one must consider whether or not the clerk's life is actually in danger (and that is definitely a judgement call). You can't read the robber's mind and know that he intends to harm the clerk - he only wants the money and is using the weapon to get it. An anti-gun prosecutor would bring that up in any trial as well as the escalation card. If you do nothing there's a real high probability that the robber gets the money and no one gets hurt.

If you pull your weapon, yell freeze scumbag or some other Hollywood BS and the robber turns towards you, you fire and kill him an anti-gun prosecutor is gonna claim you took action that resulted in escalation - you might very well end up in prison or dead.

With all that said what I'd do is back into cover if available and draw my weapon if it could be done without revealing that I had done so otherwise I'd make ready to draw if the BG threatened me or shot the clerk. Once the BG leaves the store I'd immediately attempt to get the tag number of the car he was driving.

I'd hang around until the police showed up, give them the tag number and state that I'd be happy to testify at any trial or ID the BG if called upon to do so.

Only in the event that the BG personally threatened me or shot the clerk would I unload on the BG.

As an aside in the state I live in even if I pulled my weapon and unloaded on the BG killing him it is doubtful I'd be charged with a crime let alone indicted and have to stand trial. My CCW permit would be suspended pending the outcome of an investigation and more than likely reinstated. Even knowing that I would still only react as I've described above.
 
It would depend on a number of things. Does he know that I am there? If not, is the clerk directly in my line of fire? Am I in the clerk's line of fire? Does he appear scared and out of control? Do I have any real cover? What is the range to the goblin? Is he moving a round a lot or standing pretty steady? Is their a possible tail gunner in the store already, Etc. and so on. This sounds like a lot to think about, but I bet you could sort it out pretty quick.

I live in Texas, and here you could basically ambush him without any warning or announcement. If he is committing a crime and holding a gun on someone a well placed shot to the back of the head from a hide is legal if you are a civilian and not a cop. A cop has to give a warning or at least convince IA that he did so.

If the goblin thought that only he and the clerk were in the store, I would be afraid that he would go ahead and kill the clerk. The more people in the store, the more likely he would just take the money and leave unless he is prepared to shoot all of the witnesses. If I could do it from good cover and the range was close enough to ensure a good head shot (about 7-8 yards max for me), I might take him out, keeping in mind that the gun would momentarily have to be off of the clerk. Head shots, even to the base of the skull, don't always stop them cold - a high percent of the time, but not always. It would have to be a good steady shot on a non-moving threat target. A miss and you probably got a full fledged gun fight on your hands, or at least the bad guys laying down suppressive fire as he exits - still not good.

You can pre-plan your actions for such a problem to some extent. but the overall circumstances would dictate the final decision to engage or not. If the goblin spotted me and started to focus his attention on me, the fight would probably be on.

My 2 cents,

TEX
 
Is this thread still alive?

There wasn't much that needed to be said after Jeff White's post.
 
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