In 2009 the US Army bought 450,000 Beretta Model 92FS's....

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It's been the standard service pistol since 1990

Zak, IIRC, it's been since 1985.

9mm = less recoil, good performance, up to 2x the rounds per magazine. This is what the Army determined was what they wanted right after WWII. Bean counters said, "but you have millions of brand-new 1911 pistols, and millions of brand-new rounds of .45 ACP. You don't need a new pistol."

They were both right.
 
My understanding is that 9mm FMJ and .45 ACP FMJ create very similar wounds just that one is slightly bigger. With JHP it can be another story but this isn't the case here.
 
I didn't know that they had dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into those pharsical rifle programs. I always assumed that the rifle companies were footing the bill. Why would you pay companies who already have the tremendous incentive of securing massive government contracts if they come up with the best rifle? Only in government would you pay people to audition for you. In the real world, those debacles would have you updating your resume.

To me, the astounding thing about wanting to continue to buy berettas is that it is a great chance to try to shed some weight and volume for the grunt lugging all his gear. The 92 is way, way too big for a gun that just shoots a 9mm. As a poster above mentions, a pistol is a weapon of last resort. No need to make it the size and weight of a magnum. Carry a lot, fire rarely--so go light.

Buy some glocks. No trials needed whatsoever. Plenty of info available right here, at your fingertips. And I don't see any argument about how soldiers are trained to use the beretta. How much training is needed to work with a glock? And they have to be cheaper than a beretta once you get everything set up.
 
I bet the military likes the Beretta 92 and the Sig 226/228 because there is an exposed hammer to verify the condition of the gun. If the hammer is down, the gun is safe. I am curious if the military trains folks to holster the handgun with the thumb on top of the hammer as a further safety precaution. With the striker fired weapons, you don't have a hammer to put your thumb on when holstering, and you have a fairly light trigger. It would be different if the trigger was heavy like a DAO revolver Ruger or S&W.
 
I bought a Beretta 92FS a couple years ago, just to see why it was hated so much. I found it to be an excellent pistol, reliable and accurate.
However, when I got back into Glocks, I traded the Beretta for a Glock 17OD. To me, the G17 would make a lot of sense as a service pistol. It is lighter and more compact, important attributes to a grunt carrying 100lbs of gear.
 
I bought a Beretta 92FS a couple years ago, just to see why it was hated so much. I found it to be an excellent pistol, reliable and accurate.
However, when I got back into Glocks, I traded the Beretta for a Glock 17OD. To me, the G17 would make a lot of sense as a service pistol. It is lighter and more compact, important attributes to a grunt carrying 100lbs of gear.
Sure, the 92FS you bought off the shelf was probably an excellent pistol. As was the 92 I bought off the shelf.

The M9 I was issued was a different story. It was more accurate to remove the rounds from the magazine and throw them at the target.

Which the range officer wasn't exactly happy with...
 
Back around the time of the Gulf War I was doing some research in an attempt to get the Glock 19 for issue to our aircrews. Concealing the M9 under a flight suit was an unfunny joke; it was obvious to everyone what that giant lump in your armpit was.

When I found out what the Air Force was paying for the Beretta, I dropped the whole thing. The Glocks were going to cost ~$400 a copy, the AF was paying just under $200 for the M9s.
 
Zak, I guess there's a difference between adopting a weapon and it actually entering service. The testing was in 1984, and it was adopted in 1985, according to several references, but didn't actually enter service until 1990. Yet, last year was the "25th year of service" for the M9. :D
 
Original poster, with due respect, you should at least try a search before posting. This one's been done to death.

The Beretta 92FS/M9 is much like a once niche band that becomes popular. Suddenly everyone hates them because they're the "establishment". It's an absolutely excellent pistol design. Literally any other sub-$1000 design would be hated for its own reasons if it was adopted as the official sidearm.

If the DoD didn't buy crap magazines, and if people didn't exhaustively quote the locking-block breakage issues inherent to like...a dozen M9s in the early nineties, the complaints against the pistol would be halved, if not quartered.

And as many other posters have pointed out, the sidearm is a last-ditch tool. If you're using your pistol, something went very, very wrong.
 
Buy some glocks. No trials needed whatsoever.

Yea, with many, many police departments going from zero negligent discharges to several a month (reports I have seen from LEOs speaking on this issue concerning their particular department on various gun forums over the years) - we SUER want to hand over this type of handgun to people who train even less with them (on average) than most LEOs (who routinely do not train at all, and just qualify once a quarter.
 
Actually this bit here on the M9 is relatively accurate for wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_pistol

Again, Glocks are not now and never were in the running. They do not meet the desired criteria. Now if you desire the military to change it's criteria be sure to go through the proper channels.

There are a few choices in handguns in the military, the M9 and the Sig 226 come to mind. Many though prefer the Colt made M4 or M4A which is, again, not a Glock.

tipoc
 
I was issued my M9 in the USMC in early 1986. That one was made in Italy. The one I carried in desert Storm was a US made one. The contract called for them to be all made in the US within 3 years.

Apparently the M9 enter Army service "officially" in 1990 but i know many Army units and almost all Marine units had them long before that.

Also Beretta already had a functioning factory in the US in 1985, while Sig did not. Beretta was already making guns in the 1970's at the factory in Accokeek Md to get around the 1968 Gun Control Act

They were making the model 21 bobcat and the 950 jetfire at that facility.

Sig had no such facility and had to factor that into the cost per gun.
 
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Also for all those who say its a last ditch weapon or used to fight your way to your rifle, well it was my primary PDW, my main weapon was not a rifle but a 105MM gun mounted in the tank.

We had a pair of M16's in the tank but almost never dismounted the vehicle with them. The M9 was with me everytime.
 
The Block is a better pistol, but at least with the Beretta you can hit a barn from the inside!
 
If you think the group of people you are issuing a pistol to can't handle a glock without accidentally discharging it, then I would propose not giving them a pistol at all. Nor an assault rifle, machine gun, grenade launcher, etc.

And speaking of accidental discharges, isn't the Remington 700 the basis for the army's and marine corps' sniper rifle?

The trials aren't needed because the gun has been used by years by hundreds of thousands or millions and has proven itself to be effective. It ain't perfect, but it is at least relatively durable, reliable, and accurate. Nothing has stuck out as being a major flaw.

On the other hand, a Glock is certainly is way lighter than the M9. I also think that if all else is equal, it has to be cheaper to make. In the case of the military, the weight and cost factors are probably what should take precedence.
 
LawScholar: "...and if people didn't exhaustively quote the locking-block breakage issues inherent to like...a dozen M9s in the early nineties,..."

Sorry. Locking blocks have been breaking (in significant numbers) on Beretta M9s since I fired JSSAP test weapons back in 1983. They continue to break with monotonous regularity to this very day under high round count military use. Perhaps you meant slide separations?

I don't have to quote locking block issues. I've lived them (as have most folks in my units). Usually an average of ~ 18% of issued weapons suffering a locking block failure annually. Not internet rumor. Not imaginary stories. Just very real pieces of broken metal that we can touch. Common knowledge across most Army Special Forces battalions. And one of the primary reasons why so many of us carry Glocks or 1911s downrange.

When the M9 was adopted, the Army wanted a weapon which would somewhat exceed a 5000 round minimum service life. Not an unreasonable criteria when you consider that, at the time those requirements were put to paper, the average issued pistol was expected to fire only about 200 rounds per year. That figure was based upon then-existing STRAC training ammunition allocation tables.

After adding significant pistol live fire to re-vamped CQB training, we routinely exceeded that planned service life expenditure in less than a year. They began to fail with higher round counts...and continue to do so.

The 450,000 new M9s were purchased by DoD because that buy was the cheapest solution to a bigger problem. That problem is: The original fielding of a half million or so M9s are reaching the end of their useful life due to wear and tear. The aluminum frames have not held up and many of those weapons are now beyond economical repair...after only 15-25 years in service (depending upon original year of issue).

It's not really the Beretta's fault, as the military got exactly what they asked for in the original specifications. The problem is that the pistol we bought is not the pistol we later needed. Tactics and doctrine evolve. Sometimes hardware is unable to keep up.

My unit was one of the last in the US Army to be issued M9s (around 1994). None of those weapons (issued in '94) remain in our arms rooms, having all been replaced several times over after they wore out under heavy use.

A new sidearm for the entire force is cost prohibitive in this time of soon-to-be shrinking defense budgets. We'll get another 20 years or so out of the new batch of M9s.

Although the Glock is a superb weapon (I own/have owned several), those that advocate general issue of such a foolproof weapon to several hundred thousand pistol neophytes are dreadfully misguided. They have simply not considered how many ingenious fools we issue weapons to. Issue the entire force Glocks and we would see an epidemic of NDs...which would then necessitate mandatory unloaded carry ...negating the primary advantage for using Glocks in the first place (instant Point & Press simplicity).

Glocks, like 1911s, require a bit higher standard of training & safety awareness. Sadly, that required level of enhanced training (and secure holsters to match) ain't in any foreseeable budgets for the entire US military. ;)

Unfortunately, the M9 will Soldier on for the next generation. So it goes.

YMMV.
 
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I'm pretty sure our modern military is exercising the M9 more often than the average 1911 was ever fired in it's service life. True, an all steel gun might hold up longer, but for rated round life, our service M9's, over the period of 20-25 years, has probably exceeded the recommended service life of most of the M9's. Let's not forget even 1911A1's were cannibalized and kept running with spare parts and parts from other broken guns. Military aromorers have always propped up weapons as much as possible. That is their job. Police departments replace guns much sooner than 20-25 years, and with good reason. There is a point of diminishing returns on any tool that gets used a lot. When you add the need to have combat ready weapons for the sake of saving lives, why not factor in replacement BEFORE the break down on a regular basis? For the price of several smart bombs, or a few nukes, we could rearm soldiers with an awful lot of new sidearms.
 
SharpDressedMan: For the price of several smart bombs, or a few nukes, we could rearm soldiers with an awful lot of new sidearms.

This.

I guess that pistols and rifles just aren't as sexy as a multi-billion J-35 fighter-bomber program, a billion dollar base construction project, or a new naval vessel. They certainly don't provide jobs for multiple state constituencies the way big procurement contracts do.

In the scope of overall DoD budget, small arms can be purchased for chump change.

But...Under Secretaries of Defense and Flag Grade Officers rarely think about things like pistols. Just not on their radar screen.
 
Although the Glock is a superb weapon (I own/have owned several), those that advocate general issue of such a foolproof weapon to several hundred thousand pistol neophytes are dreadfully misguided. They have simply not considered how many ingenious fools we issue weapons to. Issue the entire force Glocks and we would see an epidemic of NDs...which would then necessitate mandatory unloaded carry ...negating the primary advantage for using Glocks in the first place (instant Point & Press simplicity).

I agree with you 100%. This "safety is in your head" thing can be repeated all ya want. There IS a lot of Ads with Glocks in depts that the average person never hears about. There WOULD bea ton of them in the military. At a minimum, a thumb safety would have to be added (which glock CAN do if they want). But, a DA/SA would cause less ADs if the gun was kept loaded.

Of course, the glock-o-philes will deny this forever, but that is my opinion.
 
I have heard there is not a lot of training for the average person when it comes to handguns in the military. A Glock or S&W M&P would be a disaster for such issue when the handgun is to be loaded and expect someone not to keep his finger off the trigger. The nice thing about the Beretta is the exposed hammer, decocker/safety, and hammer down. For a backup gun that will be carried hammer down (i don't know if they are taught to carry with the safeties on or off) with little training, you can't get much safer than the Beretta for an autopistol. The Sig is a good safe autopistol too with the exposed hammer.

How often are doctors, pilots, and other support folks brought out to fire handguns military? I have a feeling not often, so a Beretta or Sig is probably a safe handgun to keep loaded and carry when they go overseas.

The fact is the military doesn't even seem to trust the average military folks to carry loaded rifles on the bases in Iraq, so they are paranoid about not having a mishap.
 
"I'm surprised they actually have a genuine need to order 450,000 new Beretta's."

Because...we've only been at war for like....10 years? Who would've thought that we need some more firearms.

"How often are doctors, pilots, and other support folks brought out to fire handguns military?"

A pretty intense program consisting of life like ranges and situations in full combat gear prior to every combat deployment is much different than the routine target match like education that occurred prior to the war.

"The average staff officer in the US military could really care less about weapons."

Not my perspective at all. The average staff officer who has been in the last 10 years has completed multiple trips to combat areas and is very familiar with firearms, ied's, mortar and rocket fire, crew served weapons, convoy tactics, helicopter tactics etc.

"The fact is the military doesn't even seem to trust the average military folks to carry loaded rifles on the bases in Iraq."

Again, not my experience at all...but I was on a FOB when I was there. The situation was dynamic and some bases may have had different rules. Outside the wire everyone was locked and loaded.
 
The problem with Glocks is the goofy way you have to take it apart for cleaning. Pulling the trigger for disassembly is where a significant number of negligent discharges are occurring. This in a law enforcement setting has been and continues to be problematic, in a military setting it's insane and completely unacceptable. The beauty of the Beretta is that you could take it apart fully loaded and not have it go off on you. The glockaholics can whine all they want but their baby is never going to be military grade.
 
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