Incident at the local range.

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May 21, 2003
I just left the local range after making an incident. Its range rule clearly state that magazine out with action clear. Well, the HK P7M8, a very safe design, not cocked 1911 (I know.. all guns are dangerous), in my holster was empty but I forgot to leave the magazine out.
OK, I agree that I was a complete idiot for not following the safety rule, but here is what happened. When I walked into the firing lane, the old guy behind me apparently saw that magazine was in the place. I, not aware of that I forgot to leave the magazine out of the gun (I usually shoot at the other indoor range, where this is not required, and apparently forgot) was completely shoked when this old guy GRABBED THE GUN IN THE HOLSTER FROM THE BEHIND, TRYING TO TAKE IT AWAY. Good thing the holster was tight fitting, he failed to do so, and when I turned around to see what happened, he then yelled at me to go out side and clear the gun and come back in.
Sure, I deserve to be kicked out of the range for violating the rule, but he could simply have told me to correct the mistake, especially when it was secured in the holster, and not being waved around. I walked out aknowledging my mistake, but I was so pissed and shoked(also little embarassed) I decided that I couldn't shoot here.
I don't know who the man was and i don't care, but I think he caused much more unsafe environment than myself by using unnecessary confiscation method on a dangerous weapon that he is not even familiar with. He could have yelled at me all he wanted, but YOU DO NOT TOUCH MY GUN with out MY CONSENT. My fault aside, it was dangerous, disrespectful, inconsiderate, and rude.
I was already fed up with their rude and indifferent employees. Now I am never going back to that place. Someone could have been seriously hurt today.
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H'mmm. Gun grab from behind? He's fortunate that you hadn't just finished taking a handgun-retention class, or it is entirely possible that you would have busted his elbow for trying it.

That said, a moment's innattention to the safety rules is a Very Bad Thing. Pay 'tention next time. :)


If the whole human race lay in one grave, the epitaph on its headstone might well be: 'It seemed a good idea at the time.' -- Dame Rebecca West
Yeah, I SHALL follow the safety rule more closely next time. I would love to have his elbow busted or eyes gauged, but he had lot of other old buddies with loaded 1911s next to him. :uhoh: and I only had an empty 9mm.
Actually, it might be possible that old man had a sudden unsuppressable impulse to see my naked P7M8 out of its holster, because it looks like THIS out of it:

Take your dirty paws off my GUN!
Wait! You tried to RAPE her! You sick :cuss: !!!
Anyone making a try for my gun is in danger of getting a Benchmade 710 in their neck.

That was a seriously stupid thing to do - that guy should lose his club membership for that, absolutely.

As for leaving the mag in the gun, I'd file that under 'BFD'.

- Gabe
Leaving a Mag in your gun may be against range rules...

But trying to take my gun away from me would most likley end up in me having him handcuffed on the floor.

One of the few situations where deadly force is authorized around here is if someone tries to take your gun away from you.

It would have been a bad for us both.

/vent off

It was a mistake on your part, but his action was totally stupid and irresponsible.

/no really vent off!
Hey Doc, you did better than I would have cause I would have decked his old butt after I had broken his arm.


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I mean, seriously I am not going back there though it is 5min away from where I live. I much prefer to go to Bulls Eye indoor range in Lawrenceville 20 minutes away. They always greet me with my name, and NO gun grabbing there.
I have to agree with the general consensus on this one. Yes, you should have paid more attention to the range rules, but regardless of those rules, anyone who tries to grab someone else is a complete idiot who doesn't deserve to be at the range!:fire:
Agree that you broke the rule and set yourself up for trouble.

However, that old man is dangerously stupid. I would have sent you home for the day, but banned him forever.

I never go to two ranges locally that have a dozen more rules than are necessary for safety's sake.
Sorry ... repetition but yeah .. that ol fart was crazy! OK you broke a rule but hey ..... holstered. IMO a holstered gun is a safe gun .. in that condition. A degree of tact and thought and all he need have done was ''remind'' ytou of the rule.

To try a grab is assinine ..... he is guilty himself of ''behavior unbecoming'':rolleyes:
Over the top

Even though you "broke" a rule, the old fool instigated a near-death situation, IMHO.

I belong to two local outdoor ranges: #1 has an R.O. at all times and a list of No-No's as long as my...arm; there have been TWO minor injuries at this range caused by confusion and over-zealous R.O.'s ......Range #2 has weekend matches and all members have the key to the gate and 24/7 priviledges...MANY of us let ourselves in at all hours -- potential members are voted-in on the rec. of at least two members. I often am alone and unsupervised. There have been ZERO firearm-inflicted injuries at this range in it's 12 years of existance....If someone came up from behind while I was wearing ear protection and tried to grap my gun, they wouldn't feel too well. Common sense and firearms are a great combination!
While not having a magazine in your handgun may be a range rule, having a magazine in is far more safe than trying to grab another person's handgun from behind. I carry a loaded handgun in a holster every day and have not had any problems with safety. If someone tried to snatch my gun from behind every day, well........
He is very lucky. When I'm at the range there is always another pistol under my shirt that never gets touched or fired during that session. Someone coming up behind me and trying to take my holsered weapon will most likely cause the hidden one to become exposed in a violent manner :eek: :fire:

I'm with the crowd that would have put ol boy on his butt. A polite but stern warning to you would be much better since although you violated a safety rule, no one was in immediate danger.

It probably would have done the guy a bit of good to eat some dirt. I'd bet he would never try that again!

Good Shooting
I've only taken a gun away from someone on the range twice. Both times they were attempting to point the weapon at me.

No need to touch your weapon as it was in the holster and you were not in violation of any of the Four Rules, merely a range rule. Cool out for a few days and talk to the Safety Director (or equivalent at your club). Make sure word gets out about how to handle a "range rule" by, oh, I don't know, talking maybe???:rolleyes:

Old guy was lucky. Here he would have one less eye and working arm and would be introduced to Mr. Ground.
Like GregL.....

I also carry a "New York Reload" that is never used or exposed while at the range. How many others do this as well?

While the good Doctor made a mistake with leaving the magazine in his pistol, if the old man had tried that with me, and from behind no less......

Damn!!! that has got to be the scariest incident I've ever had described to me on line or IRL

Doc, you realy have to talk to somone at that range about this guy. He needs to fully understand how close to dead he came. Not saying that you would have shot him, but the next time he tries to "flex his authority" in that manner with somone else.........:uhoh:
Thanks you guys for your consideration on my behalf. I am sure you guys will disagree, but I am sort of pacifist. I mean, yeah, what old man did was like touching me in the unmentionable place. But he was at least 60 years old, and I am only 25. I usually listen to what senior citizen have to say. He probably was obviously upset that I broke the range rule, and acted foolish without really thinking about it (we all do it sometime). May be I wasn't dressed well enough, and just appeared as an irresponsible young punk, and treated me like one.
I did not punch. slash, or shoot him , because of I knew that old man was behind me and I was in the place where it is probably most safe (from crime I mean).
Since it was done without criminal intent; if I knock, punch, gouge eye, or shoot him I wouldn't be discussing this with you gentlemen tonight. Instead, I'd be thinking of my justfication against his 'witnesses'. In the end, NO one was hurt.
As for that range, place gave me such a bad vibe (he may have been hard core member or R.O.), that I will just go to another range; and I am gonna have a good night sleep with LOADED P7M8 or BHP next to me.

O.K. if some one touch my gun at THAT other range also, I am gonna stab him in the testicle.
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I can appreciate what you are saying Doc, I am in general a pacifist too, but look at it this way. This guy saw a pistol, in a holster, with a mag in it, which violated range rules. Instead of approching you and talking to you about it, he proceded to try to snatch it from you from behind.

Now your right, for all intents and purposes he didn't have any criminal intent, but I can't think of anything more horrifying.

How did he know that the pistol was empty? What if it wasn't and he, while grabbing it, fired a round? A round that would most likely have hit you, not somone else but YOU, somwhere around the hip and or kidneys, one of the worst places to get shot EVER

If this is the kind of person that this range has as and RO, I would never show my face there again. This person is a danger to everyone there especialy himself and somone needs to speak to the powers that be so he doesn't get himself or anyone else killed.
OK, you violated a range rule. That should earn you a short discussion with the Range Officer or owner. May or may not get you kicked off the range.

Attempting to take someone's holstered firearm from behind, unannounced or not, is so incredibly stupid that my jaw is still sagging. I'm not trained in firearm retention, but I guarantee you that I would automatically be trying to immobilize and grind to dust any hand that attempted it. The guy clearly set up a situation that was far more unsafe than what already existed.

Good thing no one was hurt, before or after. Give yourself credit for not escalating when you knew what the real situation was. Chill, then go back and talk to the management. Who knows, the older guy may end up getting the butt-chewing or suspension he deserves...
Well, you broke a rule. My first response on hearing it is BFD. Somebody tries to snatch something from me and they'd have a painful wrst for a moment while I analyzed whether or not they needed a dislocated shoulder and the opportunity for field rhinoplasty, at a mininimum. Was he a RO or another shooter? If he's a RO he could have perhaps handled it a little differently (ie; maybe a little less abrupt). If he was just another shooter then he was WAY out of line. If he wasn't in a position of responsibility at the joint I'd have a friendly, non-confrontational chat with the RO in charge and give an unemotional, unembellished account of the incident for his benefit. Then I'd consider doing what you already have suggested- stay away for a little while, then come back and make sure to follow the rules as posted, to the letter. I'd say you get your do-over for the year this time.

BTW, I do not advocate physical violence against the elderly or infirm.

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