Incident at the local range.

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I would find another range to go to.

I attended a range that at one time posted a "no loaded concealed carry firearms" sign.

Then they realized that a ND / AD is more likely to occur when they have people fumbling with their firearms, before they enter and after they leave and removed the sign.

I feel more comfortable at a range that runs hot all the time.

Basically, pistol may be chambered and have a loaded magazine, however it is to remain holstered at all times unless you are in a designated shooting lane.

How many firearms accidentally discharge while perfectly seated in the holster?
doctorhumbert, the gun grabber wasn't a range employee, correct?

You talked to "someone" at the range. IMHO, you should make sure that you talk to the owner and explain in detail what happened. The owner is gonna be driven by three things:
  • safety on the range
  • no adverse publicity
  • don't run off paying customers

It's to the owner's advantage (and all of us shooters) to not show up on the evening news as the poster child of negligent discharges within a commercial shooting establishment, especially if injury or death were to occur. In that sense, you're doing the owner an incredible favor by pointing out an extremely unsafe condition.

Ask the owner to contact the IDPA group and lay down the law, telling the IDPA group to self-police or move elsewhere. Who knows what the owner will do...they're gonna be concerned about point 3 above to some degree. At that point, you've done about all you can possibly do.

Good luck. I hope you get to your friendly range soon...
The IDPA may well rent the range for its shoots, but I'll guarantee you the owner pays for liability insurance.

The owner has a vested interest in seeing to it that idiots don't cost him money. Makes no difference who the idiot belongs to.
Just found the thread. I have to commend you on keeping your cool when this idiot went for your gun.

Luckily I've only been around once when some gung-ho type tried this baloney, and thankfully it didn't happen to me. Unfortunately the range idiot (RI) went for the gun of a friend who is a serious - and I mean SERIOUS! - self-defense type who is freaky-fast with any type of weapon. As soon as the RI's hand touched the gun, which was unloaded but had the slide down, there was a blur of motion and he suddenly found himself facing a very loaded and ready-to-fire Glock. Fortunately my buddy is as quick mentally as he is physically so it only took a fraction of a second to realize what was going on. No one was hurt, and it was a valuable reminder for all who were witness to the incident.

The RI had to sit down for a while. When he stopped shaking he admitted that his actions were probably none too bright. We all had to agree.

On a scale of 1-10, what you did was maybe a 2, and what he did was a 9. He's lucky he didn't pull that stupid stunt on an Aikido or Judo black belt, or they would be sewing his arm back on.


Kick me off the range or whatever for the mag, but


I wish Dr. Humbert could find some way to let us know exactly which range that is without getting athwart the lawyers, because my sweetie lives very near there and I've been trying to get her to practice more. I'd advise her to avoid this place unless and until they take safety more seriously.

On a more general note: A friend of mine once had one of those little tip-barrel Beretta pocket pistols. He's a very sociable, friendly guy, and was entertaining his usual mix of folks one night when a "guest of a guest" picked up the piece without permission, vy suddenly, and racked the slide. Well, no extractor, I think the guy bent something and the thing never worked right afterwards. I sent a large rocket up my friend's behind,re:

1. "Why did you leave that where a stranger could grab it?"

2. "Why did you let him live? Don't you know that, at least since the invention of the stone knife, messing with another man's weapons without his express permission has been grounds for immediate, painful, summary execution?"
(Edited for ugly bad line wrap 2046 EDT )

P.S. I'd appreciate a PM identifying this range. I hereby promise to tell no one else except the above Sig. Other.
Range Officers

Range officers are The Man In Charge.

For everyone's safety, what they say, goes. I STRONGLY advise everyone to stop and read every rule before shooting at a range. I'm concerned when folks like Edward129837491823759 say they intentionally flaunt the rules. If you openly break the "cold range" rule, who knows you won't decide to disobey a valid RO order, or the 180 rule, etc?

I've personally had some major beefs with RO's, but recognize that they are utterly, totally, completely IN CHARGE. Example: I was at a match two weeks ago, and the RO disallowed me from loading my topped-off magazine into the butt of my 1911 while it was holstered. (You know the drill: Go to the line, RO says "load and make ready." Unholster unloaded pistol, load a mag, rack it once, reholster and snap, remove magazine, load up the Barney Bullet into the top of that magazine to replace the chambered round, and replace magazine into butt of holstered pistol.) For some reason unbeknownst to me, he absolutely forbade me from replacing a magazine into a holstered pistol for an administrative reload. Dumb. There's no safer pistol than a properly-holstered pistol. But he was the R.O. You know what I said? "Yes Sir." And complied.

If the R.O. is not in complete control, someone could get hurt. If we don't agree to that, we probably had best shoot elsewhere, right? Right.

That said, I think that we need to choose our R.O.'s carefully. The R.O. knows (and should know) he's in charge. For some, that could go to their heads. "Respect mah authoritieeeee!"

Clearly, Doc's R.O. was completely out of bounds. As a trained R.O., I've no problems with putting hands on a firearm that's pointing in an unsafe direction, but I can't conceive of trying to remove a safe pistol from a safe holster of an individual who is not acting in a dangerous manner. Dear Gawd, if it's unsafe to carry a loaded gun in a holster, what business did I (a police officer) have carrying one in a SCHOOL this spring?!?

Remember: The Range Officer's in charge. If the Man In Charge is a fool, run, don't walk, out the exit.
Telling which range it is might be against the board rule. I could have made up all these incidents. I leave it to individual judgement. All I can say is that there is other range near by which I highly recommend. It's called Bull's Eye indoor range in Lawrenceville, not very far travel time wise from this one. Their number is (770) 963-6556. They are pretty cool guys.
You still have to follow their range rule though .:cool:
I'm concerned when folks like Edward129837491823759 say they intentionally flaunt the rules. If you openly break the "cold range" rule, who knows you won't decide to disobey a valid RO order, or the 180 rule, etc?

I hear the tone of your concern Matt, and I wont fault you for it, seeing as you don't know me. Rest assured though, that I am one of the safest people on the range. I am no newbie and I totally respect the authority of the RO. I do not do 180's with my sidearm.

The range I speak of is an outdoor range. I have a lot of eye contact with the RO and have never been tapped on the shoulder for being less than safe. He says clear, I clear, holster, then catch his eye in aknowledgement. I believe he/they've never called me on it because my mannerisms and lack of violations bespeak safety and competance. Much like newbies incompetance is apparent in their mannerisms.

I do not intentionally flaunt the rules par se' but hold myself AS the rules in a very reasonable compromise of safety and common sense. Kind of like Cooper and his violation of rule #2 with his telly. In other words, I don't want to lay my pistol down. I got ripped off for a Glock 21 mag off the table once at this range. I can't really fault the RO for not watching my table for me, the place was crowded. Luckily, they left my Redhawk alone and just took my mag from beside it. I spoke first to the RO of course, but lets face it, it was gone.

I learned a lesson that day and chose to holster instead of table from now on. I know I'm just as safe holstered as others who aren't even touching their guns and I know my property isn't going anywhere. I'm obviously doing it right because they've never called me on it. If they did, I'd comply and probably not return anymore, without saying a word. Usually I'm wearing two on my belt, one front one back so its not like they just didn't notice me. I may not be the best shot, but I exude competance in safety on the range so they afford me the respect of allowing me to holster, and I respect them for that.

Don't try this at home kids, these are real guns. :uhoh:
I heard that on his way home from the range, the R.O. saw a car with a tail light out and he ran them off the road - just to be safe :)
Assuming any gun is a loaded gun, it seems to me that trying to remove someone elses gun from a holster (suprising them no less) is an excellent way to wind up with a negligent discharge.. Struggle over gun, gun goes bang, someone/something get's perforated. Not a good situation.

I don't agree with the hot/cold deal.. Every firearm should always be considered loaded, and "hot".. Developing two distinct sets of behaviors regarding firearms ("hot" and "cold") can only lead to trouble when one believes that the gun is "cold" in error.

Go outside and clear the weapon?!? How about point 'er downrange and clear the weapon.. DUH...

Gotcha Ed. BTW, I just now finally got the series of numbers following your name. Can't believe it took me so long. :eek:

Re-reading DocHumbert's posts in this threads, I believe I may have made some assumptions regarding the old feller's status. I had thought that it had been established that he was an R.O. Apparently, that fact has not been established.

The individual was obviously using the rules to feed his own personal gratification at trying to humiliate you.

The rules are to promote safety, not give excuses for power-tripping, and what he attempted to do was about 5 times more dumb/dangerous than your omission.

A verbal reminder to make your pistol safe would have sufficed 100%.

If the person was simply another patron/member, I would have warned him to never, ever touch me in that manner again. That grabbing for a gun, uninvited, in unkown condition, was much more dangerous than your own infraction.

If he was an employee or RO, I would have taken it up with managment, and only then never returned if they were unresponsive, or flippant.
edward, you probably are more safer than i am, you've had way more experience than i have, but if you came to the range i shoot at (rabbit creek rifle range) you'd not only have the RO's chewing you out but also other shooters.
they are very strict about ensuring EVERYONE follows the range rules ALL the time. consider the liability side for the owners of the range.
someone gets injured/killed on accident, and the investigators ask the RO's "do all shooters on the line follow ALL the range rules?"
the RO may call to mind "well there is this one guy who doesnt leave his unloaded weapon on the bench, he holsters it, but i'm sure its always unloaded".
the investigator may then deem the range responsible for accidents that result in injury or death because they didnt enforce all their rules with every shooter.

so your flaunting the range rules may have a harsher impact than you think.
Well spaceman, you make a very reasonable valid point. All I can say to that is the RO would be an idiot to admit that some people don't adhere to the rules. It would set them up for the fall.

Realistically though, One can seldom pick up a gun without violating a rule. "Dont let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy", period. Range tables, flooring, whatever. Something that would not be acceptable to shoot is covered with muzzles daily. If a RO wanted to be technically honest answering that question, he would have to say No one does.

But in a practical sense, most are safe and the RO could say "Everyones as safe as can be here", which would be a realistic statement that does not scream 'sue me'. A RO is kind of like a cop. He can enforce the rules all he can and yet many violations will occur that day. Its impossible to be everywhere at once. Getting technical over practical is plain dumb in reality.

I am as safe as safe can be on the range (almost robotic (No ED209 jokes please)) and yet still I violate the rules, technically speaking. When you take practicality and common sense out of the rules (you start sounding like a cop), you take away the intelligence and human responsibility that we all should have.

So Cooper needs his skills more than his telly. Well I need my property to stay put more than I need adherance to a liability / conformity rule. When I choose to holster that pistol rather than lay it down, I holster the responsibility that goes with it.

they are very strict about ensuring EVERYONE follows the range rules ALL the time.

I wouldn't go to a range I've never been to before and try to shove anything down anyones throat. Bad form. I'd go with the flow and politely voice my concerns, and give them a chance to become at ease with my level of demonstrated safety and go from there. WADR, you may be going a little too far with the what if's on this issue. I see your point but its just a wee bit farfetched I think.

We could what if anything to death. What if I layed down a full mag next to my pistol at slidelock on the table, and someones 5 yr old wandered in while I'm downrange changing targets and knew enough to insert mag and drop slide but not enough to not point it at his face and squeeze? Who'd be at fault then, me or the range? If my pistol was holstered on my person this wouldn't have happened. See what I mean? :)

Sorry so long.
Range rules should be followed at all times irregardless of how much sense they make to us. It would reflect on us badly to new people if they see experienced ahooters picking and choosing what rules to follow. It starts with a mag in the holster and works it's way to "But I KNOW the gun isn't loaded", and no nessicarily for the readers on this board.
There is a big difference however between an "Oops" range violation, and a "Are you trying to get somebody killed?" violation. Doc's was certainly the former and did not warrant the response he received. Most of us here are responsilbe people who take or shooting, and therefore the associated safety seriously. Many of these same people (myself included) have had the occasional "oops". This does not mean we need guns grabbed from us and be wrestled to the ground. I wouldn't be going back to that range anymore myself, Heck if I only witnessed that sort of short thinking I'd leave the range, and make sure the manager heard an earful on my way out.
I will give kudos to the doc though for having the presences of mind to continue respecting his elder in the situation, particularly given the behavior that the older gentleman was diplaying himself:D

Good call on self control
Ed, as a range officer, this bothers me, too...

One of the outdoor ranges I frequent says to lock em back on the table also. I routinely ignore this rule and holster my sidearm. I haven't been yelled at yet. I see the RO looking at me sometimes but I just continue on with what I'm doing while conducting myself in an appropriate manner (safe) and never one word.

It bothers me more that the RO didn't send you on your way home, actually. The ranges I worked at were quite firm on that rule, and, unfortunately, I had to enforce it on more than one occasion. I wasn't a jerk about it, but grabbed the sign-in sheet, with their signature next to the "I understand and agree to abide by the range rules printed above" and asked them if it was indeed their signature. They've just become a higher safety risk, and a liability to the operation of the range, since they can't follow simple instructions.

Granted, keeping your gun with you downrange was one way to prevent another theft from happening. That's a serious kind of pain. But if that particular firing range was a known venue for having firearms and accessories stolen, the problems run deep under the surface, and willfully disobeying posted range rules just adds to them, especially if the RO didn't seem to mind looking the other way during flagrant violations like yours. :(
Why oh why do you have to be so sensical about this? You last two guys sure make it hard to argue with logic like that. :D

There I was, perfectly content and confident that I'm doing the right thing, being safe, preventing theft, all that stuff, then you come along and start talking like that.;)

I agree. You guys make sense. I especially like the point about being an example to others. If others see me holstered, then they think its cool for them too and soon noone even listens to the RO anymore cause they're 'safe enough already'. Damn good point and I see where my thinking was flawed on this issue.

Touche' indeed. :eek:
I'm curious about the rule that was violated. I live in a magazine removed, action open, gun laying on table, not holstered during cease fire world, so maybe this is just ignorance. Since when did removing a magazine ensure a gun was safe? If a holstered gun with a closed action, taking it on faith that the action is clear is allowed on a cold range, what difference does it make if the magazine is inserted? Yeah, I know that's "the rule", but what good does it do? Is this an IPDA thing?

Regardless, old man was way out of line and could easily have killed someone. Perhaps he's one of these old folks who don't know when its time to hang up the keys to the car. I think he needs to be told. :fire:
Just checking back in and saw this...reminded me of a STOOPID stunt I pulled back in the '80's...I think I was about 17-18.

Was at a science fiction convention, and went to the local Radio Snack to buy some misc. geek stuff... in costume. Had my Daisy Airsoft S&W 59 in a Bianchi UM holster on my hip, Black BDU trousers and black t shirt.

While leaning over the counter, I felt a forearm come across my shoulders, and <tug><tug> at my holster. Glancing back I recognized the store manager I'd seen earlier. I offered to release the overflap, since he was having difficulty with it (obviously). He told me "SLOWLY". I Di so, and raised my hands. He removed the "weapon" and, once he realized it was plastic (which probably took this bright boy a while), he handed it back to me, and THEN identified himself as a "reserve deputy" with the sherriff's department (never saw any ID or badge), and he proceeded to "instruct me" about how dangerous my action had been, and how I could have been charged with "disturbing the peace" (after he had made a brief statement about "concealed" and I had asked "In a hip holster?")

Result? I was stupid, but he was a blinkin' idiot (I say this now as a sworn officer for a Chicago suburb) - why not call for backup if he felt threatened, or simply ask me ***?

As an credentialed adult - anybody who tries to disarm me will be disarmed in return. I applaud your sense of restraint - I would have viewed it as a direct threat. I would speak with the range /store owner, and, while acknowledging your technical violation, explain your concerns with him, including his huge liability if anything had happened as a result of negligent action on the part of one of his employees/agents (if he was).
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