Incident at the local range.

[CGofMP]

Humbert.. boy you shore did skrew up!!!

But ya know what, the range officer took a minor violation and turned it into a MAJOR invitation to disaster.

Here is the short list of possibilities:

1) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in property damage to the range facilities.

2) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in the injury of the person carying (you) via a round ito the leg, kidneys, or other area as the muzzle sweeps.

3) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in death or injury to another patron.

4) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in property damage of another patron.

5) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in death or injury of another range officer.

6) Had he done it to a cop or someone trained, it could very easily have resulted in injury or death to himself as the training kicks in, particularly if the officer has recently been put on notice that someone intends him harm.



In my view this elderly moron should be thrown out of the club on his butt. Around here ranges do not allow holsters but for a lucky few and usually in the context of special events or classes.

Had ANYONE done this to me I guarantee you that I would have reacted very swiftly and it would of resulted in 'weapon retention' techniques that would have caused appropriate but very unforgetable results for the person attempting to disarm me. Those who have taken weapons retention classes and advanced officer survival classes will tell you that there is not a whole lot you need to react faster to than a suspect trying to nab your weapon.


In my view, for the safety of others you absolutely NEED to get in touch with the top officials of the range and have a face to face meeting with them or at the very very least a firm and even keeled phone call with them. You need to explain what happened and why it is so completely unsafe as to cause this sort of reaction from the members of this board and others familiar with firearm safety.

What IF you had been some other idiot who had a cocked 1911 with the safety off? less than 5 lbs of pressue on that trigger (nothing at all compared to what ya can place on it improperly removing it from a holster) and this would have ended a whole lot different.

It's your call but I think this one needs serious attention before some newspaper someplace prints a story on "2 gun nuts at range struggle over firearm resulting in a junior shooter's death".

Can not hit this one hard enough.

Charles

 

[chetrogers]

This is why i shoot in the woods ect....If it was holstered i dont see a problem..I could see if you were waving it around and all but for being so well holstered he couldn't pull it out i think it was safe...You should tell somebody at the range about this..Say it was "your bad" but that guy shouldn't be doing stuff like that..what he did was real unsafe and probably shouldn't be tolerated...What you did was an accidental screw up ..what he did was Just plane unsafe...

 

[Moparmike]

At the very least that guy would have gone away with a bruised arm as I would have swatted it away with a promptly raised fist on the other hand. He would have been told to NEVER touch my firearm again.

 

[Hemicuda]

Sorry to say it, but you WERE wrong (as you admit)

and 'twere it ME, that old man woulda drawn back a mangled bloody stump, instead of a functioning hand, OR ended up facing the barrel of a loaded gun, for attempting to steal my firearm... you (or ANYONE) are welcome to look and admire my guns, but you do NOT touch them without permission, ESPECIALLY the one strapped on my side...

 

[braindead0]

then yelled at me to go out side and clear the gun and come back in.

You should have pointed out that the proper place to make your weapon safe is muzzle down range, on the line.. not outside!

 

[Edward429451]

Thats not very cool to try and snatch someones weapon. You can't get much safer than holstered. One of the outdoor ranges I frequent says to lock em back on the table also. I routinely ignore this rule and holster my sidearm. I haven't been yelled at yet. I see the RO looking at me sometimes but I just continue on with what I'm doing while conducting myself in an appropriate manner (safe) and never one word.



Sometimes when the RO looks at me I give him the respectful open hands palms up sign to let him know I'm being safety concious but thats all.

 

[NapAttack]

doctorhumbert,

I think you showed great restraint with this old fool. Just goes to show that age does not impart wisdom.

I've been shooting at Bullseye for years. Never had a bit of a problem there. Randy and the guys are cool. They do require all firearms unloaded and action open when you enter the store or the firearm in a guncase. They're cool about it though.

Hey, PM me and maybe we can get together to shoot sometime.

 

[Cosmoline]

All the ranges I've shot at allow the carrying of fully loaded firearms. I've seen several in the open, and I know there are concealed weapons around. These are kept on the person, and are not the ones being used on the line. They have nothing to do with the firearms you're using on the line. It seems highly hypocritical for a range to prohibit CCW in particular.

And NOBODY should ever try to grab a firearm out of someone's holster! That's a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY bad thing to do, and could wind up getting the idiot killed. What he did to you was far worse than simply violating a magazine rule. Way worse. You broke the letter of a safety rule which should probably be changed anyway. He nearly crossed the line of putting you in imminent deadly peril. The first is a range rule, the second is something that can get the fool killed WITH JUSTIFICATION. No contest. The guy is an arrogant idiot of astonishing magnitude. If he had done that at my range, he probably would have been killed.

 

[ed dixon]

Are you sure you didn't stumble into bingo night at a nursing home and have some WW1 vet mistake you for a "Hun?"

 

[brownie0486]

After reading the situation as described, I think it wise to find out who the old gent was [ most would call me an old gent ], from others at the range that day.

Once he has been ID'd, I would write a letter to the president/vboard of the club explaining in detail what happened and by whom.

I would also send a CC to the local PD so that they may better determine if they need to talk to this gent about his attempted gun grab.

The old gent escalated an infraction of the rules to where both parties and bystanders could have been harmed or killed.

I would not have left as the poster states after the attempted gun grab. I would have called the PD and had them show up to talk to this guy about possible assault charges being filed against him. They would then have a record of this on file in the event the old geezer is in the habit of pulling this crap.

At the very least they would have told him it was not kosher to be grabbing anothers weapon and could be charged with assault and battery and probably other violations as well. That way the old timer would think twice about pulling that stunt again having been warned by the PD arrival at the scene.

You could save another shooter from the same fate by the above suggestions. As it stands now, he got away with something, felt like he was some form of lone ranger and didn't break any laws in his actions [ which he did, but doesn't realize it ].

He is prone to do this again to another. Do everyone at the club a favor and perhaps save another from injury/death [ including himself ] by bringing this to the atention of the club powers that be and then the PD.

If it isn't documented now, it will be the first time the next time and the problem WILL come up again.

Do everyone and yourself a favor and take it to the clubs board. The life you save might be someone elses or this old geezers if, like others have posted, they clock him.

Brownie

 

[Pebcac]

You responded with a cool head - good job. Force would've been required only if he persisted in "relieving" you of your weapon.

I would absolutely speak with the management of that range about this issue. They should be aware of this, and have the opportunity to take corrective action. Acknowledge that you broke a rule, but still make it clear to them that you will not be back, even though it's closer, because someone put you and everyone else at great risk by initiating a physical confrontation.

If they don't respond with "Sir, we apologize and will correct it," don't ever go back and let everyone know about it that you can.

 

[doctorhumbert]

Here is further detail on exactly what happened. I will be careful not to reveal the place or location, though the people who shoot around here might get sense where it is.
It is a indoor range, and I heard that there is IPDA shooting there. And this is why I was there with a full rig. I asked at the range desk to see if I can participate, and the range employee told me to go in and ask for the person in charge since it's a private gathering. All the while not having my mistake corrected! I went in, unaware of my mistake. They were already shooting shilouette targets, and I was calmly waiting for the shooting session to be over to get some information. It was then this 'gent' who was waiting for his turn saw me standing there, and went after my gun. So in a sense I violated both range rule and IPDA (though I wasn't participating) rule.
Well, guess I won't be doing IPDA shootin with this crowd. Since IPDA shooters meet there weekly, he might show up there next week. I am not going to wait till, instead gonna call the range and tell them exactly what happened. I will give you update on what their response is.

 

[TheeBadOne]

He should lose his job

 

[45R]

Bottom line:
That guy was wrong. IT was obvious that your little infraction was not a big deal to the employees. (note that I dont condone breaking any ranges rules, because a simply saying "Sir please remove the magazine from your holstered weapon and make it safe" would have sufficed".)

That "old gent" put your life on the line as well as everyone else in the area. Reaching for anyones gun is a pure no no. It could have escalated into sometime very very bad for everyone involved as well as the bistanders. I am surprised that no one said anything to him.

That was purely unacceptable behavior. An employee should be held to a higher standard in every way at the range.

I wish you the best of luck in finding closure to the citiuation. I truely hope that the range will let go of this person because he is liable to do it again and the outcome might be worst for him or someone else next time.


Good luck


45R

 

[Mike Irwin]

The old man was WAY out of line.

Someone tries to grab my gun from its holster from behind, and I can only interpret that as an active threat.

At the very least I could have spun around swinging.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Second all those motions...

A) Well done! Restraint was certainly called for.
B) This needs to be discussed at a higher level with the mgt and possibly IDPA leadership
C) My standard working presumption is that anyone who is trying to take my gun intends to either shoot me with it, or clear the way so they can use their own. (This includes gun grabbing politicians)

 

[doctorhumbert]

I just finished talking some one at the range on the phone. I explained him what happened without being upset or confrontational. I explained them of my violation. That, what that 'gent' did was dangerous and could have someone killed at your range, and you should inform IPDA crowd of the incident. He replied by basically saying that IPDA rents our range, so we are not responsible for what they did, and thanks for letting us know. He was not impolite, but didn't seem to be too concerned about the incident and wanted end phone conversation quickly. He did not ask many questions, and it was mostly myself warning them.
I doubt they will do much about this, until someone gets really hurt at their place. I will deal with neither the gun range or IPDA shooters there. There is safer and more caring place 15 away from there.

 

[BOBE]

Simply put,"Two wrongs do not make a right". If he was a RO he should have been fired.

 

[2nd Amendment]

I'd definitely be speaking with the range owner/manager about this fellow. Not so much because of what he did to YOU specifically, since it turned out OK. The thing is, what about next time? Maybe he'll try it on a cop and get himself hurt? Maybe he'll get the weapon and hurt someone else? How many OTHER incredibly stupid actions showing incredibly poor judgement has he made? The old gent may be a perfectly nice guy but he is almost certainly a potential danger to himself or others.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Thanks for the follow-up, Dr.

Were you participating in the IPDA at the time? If not, the range better care. If so, who was in charge? Report it to them. If they don't care or defend the action, there must be a hirerarchy in IPDA (I don't know much about them) that does care.
Edited to add: On second thought, just stay away from there.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"He replied by basically sayint that IPDA rents our range, so we are not responsible for what they did, and thanks for letting us know."

Uh... No, that's not the case. He's a moron if he believes so.

 

[moa]

Your "assailant" is a Range Officer? More like Deranged Officer.

Around here, what he did would be considered at least assault (and maybe attempted theft), and maybe good for thirty days in jail. Maybe suspended sentence if he is lucky.

 

[braindead0]

So in a sense I violated both range rule and IPDA (though I wasn't participating) rule.

There are no rules in IDPA regarding whether the range is hot or cold, those are the Range rules. Obviously the club using the range could add on some more rules should they desire.. but it's not IDPA that's the problem here.

Find out what their IDPA club number is (if they are legi), talk to the IDPA club board (if there is one). If this club is an official IDPA club, contact IDPA headquarters.

 

[spacemanspiff]

i've made mistakes while on a cold range myself. i've corrected others, and watched as others corrected those who make mistakes. its always been a no-nonsense yell to get their attention. never any physcial contact that i've seen though.


the range i shoot at doesnt allow a person to holster the weapon they are shooting when the range goes cold. your weapon must be on the table in front of you, action open and magazine removed. when the RO is calling the shots, you check not only your weapon, but the guy in the lane to your right and to your left that their weapons are safe and empty.

 

[Smurfslayer]

Brownie's right

There's been quite a few "if he tried that with me..." replies...

RSO certification does not authorize you to break the law, and reaching for someone else's gun, trying to remove it from the holster ? ? ? ? ?

Another matter entirely if you're 'sweeping' folks with the muzzle...

I haven't once seen anyone suggest what I think I would've done 1st -

C E A S E F I R E ! ! ! ! !

Sort out disagreement off the firing line... right after calling local PD so there's no misunderstandings while the witnesses are still there.

It's unfortunate that a range rule was broken, however, you indicate that the gun _was_holstered, not being handled. You broke the range rules, and many here have pointed that out. Pretty sure you've got a grasp on the violation.

It's more unfortunate that the RO here took the actions he did, in the manner he did. It would be even more unfortunate to allow the possibility that he repeat himself...