incident, need advice

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Obvious, but I'll put it out there anyway.

Pepper Spray.

(Edit) I see someone mentioned it earlier, for your daughter. I'd keep a couple of cans handy around the house and car for everyone to use who can handle the responsibility.

Shooting a dog, even if justified/the proper course of action, might be traumatic for the kiddos.

Fox Labs is universaly recommended on most boards. I'd go with the stream pattern rather than the fog so wind is less likely to blow it back on you, and you can zap an aggressive dog a bit further away.

Pepper Spray/OC might fail on a Pitt or a Rott in complete blood-lust bezerker bite-mode, but it will work on about 99% of dogs 99% of the time. And a dog's sense of smell is a bazillion times more sensitive than a human's. A dog with any sense at all would probably avoid you and your yard for the rest of it's life with just a near-miss squirt.
 
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I have a non-lethal suggestion for you if I may, why don't you pick up one of those powerful pepper sprays that are designed to fend off large bears. A blast of this stuff will screw up an animal's sense of smell and sight and will certainly cause the dog to turn tail and run.This will discourage a large dog from further attack, legally keep you out of trouble, and prove to the dog's owner that it was her dog. Report this incident to the authorities and the next time STK.
 
I hate policing threads with dogs in them. I usually stay out of such threads myself, simply to make life easier on my fellow moderators. But for crying out loud, folks ...

You cannot expect every small child in the neighborhood to be able to read doggie behavior or understand doggie instincts. A small child has his own instincts, and those instincts tell him to run away when something scares him. If an animal first comes after the small child, and then attacks the child because the child ran, that isn't the child's fault. It is the fault of the allegedly domesticated animal which attacked him.

Any intelligent adult human being knows that it's a lot safer to shove the kids into a nearby car than it is to trust that an apparently aggressive dog is "really" only bluffing. Only a fool bets his children's lives and faces on the good will of an aggressive animal.

Any dog which is ill-trained enough to chase, growl at, and bite a small human being needs to be killed no matter how the child reacted when the dog scared him. It is not enough to merely put it behind a fence under the dubious control of the owner who allowed it to run free to attack children in the first place. And it sure as heck isn't enough to claim that the dog was just "going by instinct." If the dog's instincts are that incompatible with normal human behavior, it needs to be separated from the entire human race.

Those animal lovers who find the above offensive need to reconsider their priorities.

As for the rest, it's fairly obvious that the dog in Darth Ruger's neighborhood has received at least some positive reinforcement for chasing and growling at people; even if not from the owner, then from the people who did exactly what the dog wanted by running away when it barked at them. The more people that dog chases, the better the chances that one of them will "trigger the dog's prey behavior" and end up dead.

pax
 
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As a parent, +1 !

I am not risking my child's life or face! Machete or .357 to any dog that appears that it might attack. It only takes a small bite to permanently disfigure a child's face.
 
My dog has never displayed ANY agressive behavior. Toward anyone. Or any animal. Period. If he did, he would not repeat the mistake.

My dog does not get out.

It happened once or twice, but me and my brothers were immediatly on the chase. If that didnt work, we got in the car and got him.

People who own agressive dogs (no pet should be human-agressive in any way, period), who get out, and then just shrug their shoulders and say "He'll come back" are negligent as can be.
 
Start your paper trail you are going to need it. Whatever happens next is going to cause you inconvenience (at the least). I would also talk to an attorney and find our just what my options are in the scenarios that are likely to occur - dogs on property and threating and you shoot them, etc. Edited to add: and if you go with the pepper spray option get the bear strength, no point in halfway measures.
 
+1 PAX!

I'm tired of these people who cry "oh the dog was bluffing stop whinning you big baby!"

Dog is aggressive it is aggessive plain and simple if it stops once it isn't sure that it WILL stop next time, and with idiot owners there will be a next time. File report and the next time the dog comes out you shoot it dead and walk over to the neighbors house and inform them they need to come remove whats left of their dog from your property.

I love animals but if it is aggressive it needs to be delt with

I do find it funny "Stop or my dogs will attack!" so you yell at her since you can't come closer what happened and "Oh they would never do that they are big puppies!"

As for the gun if I were you I'd carry it normally and sitch to the bag for the minimum time nessisary, probably in the parking lot on the way in and out.
 
I agree with what PAX wrote but I will add something

Just because a dogs runs up to you barking does not mean it wants to attack.

Many times it just wants attention or to play.

People often have a hard time distinguishing bwtween the two - escpecially with the larger more menacing looking breeds.

I have a young male bassett hound - not a dangerous dog at all but, if you come into or near my yard (100% fenced by the way) my bassett will come runnning and barking and jumping --- all ready to play and roll-over and be petted. And, if you run away well then you are playing "tag". Now there is no way a bassett is going to scare an adult or even a teenager but it could be scary to small children and he could knock down a small child in his exuberence so I would never leave him alone with small children.

And, if a neighbor let their Pit Bull walk around the neighborhood lose - I would definetly have Anuimal Control out to pick it up.

But, people have to use some judgement not all lose dogs are vicious attack animals. Unfortunately as we read in the news a few are and no one wants to risk a child. So just use good judgement and if you can take pictures because the dog will be gone when Animal Control arrives.
 
Well, change of plans. I talked it over with my wife and we decided not to file a complaint yet, for a few reasons. First, the animal control lady herself told me all they'll do is give the people a warning. That won't accomplish anything. The dogs will still be getting out. There are also some stories about old friends I forgot about that had similar situations. One had the same problem, and kept filing complaints every time, but nothing more serious was done than warnings. The dog was still terrorizing people, even went after my wife once. The owners finally moved away a couple of years later.

I also live outside city limits, so when I called the local animal control, they told me I'd have to file the complaint with King County animal control, in Seattle. They'd have to drive almost an hour to get out here, just to give someone a warning, so they'd probably just file a report and that's it. This happened to my sister-in-law. She lives in the same county and had this problem. A dog came after her husband, but didn't bite. They complained about it, and nothing was done. The dog was still running loose. But the owners told all the neighbors that she rat-finked on 'em, and soon the whole neighborhood was treating her and her husband like dirt. It seems that nothing is done to really cure the problem until there's blood on the ground, when it's too late to prevent it. In the meantime, you've got new enemies living around you.

Maybe the owner got the point a little better this time than when my sister-in-law tried talking to her. She got almost no response. When I talked to her today, it was clear to me that the owner cared more about defending her dogs than about children being attacked, but I think at least she got the message that I mean business.

My own dogs getting out is another problem. It hasn't happened for a while, and the fence is almost done now. But as some of you pointed out, that needs to be the first thing resolved. Once it's done and no longer a problem, if there's another incident with those dogs, then we'll forget about animal control and go straight to the police. I know, "What about your kids in the meantime?" Filing a report with animal control now won't prevent that from happening anyway, and I need to have my own dog situation resolved first.

For now, we'll keep a sharp eye out for those dogs every time we go out, and I'll make sure my carry gun is easily accessible, no matter where I'm going. I'd have no problem using it if they charged me on my own property, like they did today. The only reason I didn't use it is because I couldn't get to it in time. If I could have, I'd be cleaning a stain off my driveway now. The idea of carrying bear spray already occurred to me. We have some of that at the store. I might get a can or two of that.

I appreciate everyone's honest opinions, but some are way off the mark. Some of you are assuming way too much. Who ever said anything about running away from the dogs, or running to the car? Read my first post again. I said we were getting into the car. The doors were open and the three kids (ages 4-7) were already beginning the climb up into the car and into their car seats. I never said I told the kids to run to the car. I did the only thing I could, I tried to hurry them up faster so I could get the doors closed before the dogs reached us. I was standing on the passenger side of the car helping two of them, while the third was getting in on the other side, when I saw them charging at us. At that instant, my first concern was getting their little butts into that car and getting the doors closed. No one ran anywhere or triggered anything in these dogs. They saw us from quite a distance and decided we were the enemy before I even knew they were there.

Or should we just stand there and be confident that these two Rotts, charging, snarling, and barking at us didn't really want to bite us, if we just 'knew dogs' a little better? Gimme a break. I grew up with dogs. I've had many in the past, have two now, and I've had a pit bull. I know a thing or two myself. Go back a few months and read some of my replies to those old dog threads.

I know dogs, but I don't know those dogs. All I knew is that one of them charged at my daughter while she was working in our front yard several months ago, and now two of them were charging us unprovoked from across the street like they were hungry lions chasing wildebeest. I wasn't about to let my three kids be the guinea pigs to test these dogs' true intentions. They didn't stop because they were just joking and didn't really intend to hurt anyone, they stopped because I raised my arms up (to appear bigger) and yelled at them. They weren't expecting that, and it startled them and made them jump back (although they continued barking, snarling and snapping at us, clearly not 'just wanting to play').

Don't know dogs... Some of you read my post but still got the information wrong and then made a wildly off-the-mark, uninformed assumption about someone you don't even know based on misinterpreted information and what can only be defined as speculation, because it sure wasn't based on any facts.

But I still appreciate your honesty anyway. :D
 
If i thought my kids were at risk, I would shoot the dog in the neighbors yard. I had three kids, I have one living. I know what a kids life is worth.
 
First of all I'm a dog lover. Most times the dogs are just being dogs, something has provoked them. Having said that: my ex was walking her Lab the other days and a PIt was on a neighbor's porch, not the dog's home. The Pit charged Ex and lab and neighbor grabbed a ball bat and slammed pit several times as ex kicked before Pit broke off. Cops called, Lab's ear bit and ex scratched up, nothing worse, thank God. Dog's owner showed up with accused dog. Ex didn't think same dog. Also, neighbor with bat didn't think same dog. Another Pit Bull loose in the neighborhood? Carcas would be the proof!

Stay safe.
Bob
 
Ok! We have a "nothing is the dogs fault" dog lover on the thread. This is how it goes down in Southeast Texas (and here if I have the same problem). My brother had a neighbor that had a big dog that would get out and kill his chickens. He went over and told the guy, if he caught the dog on his property again, he would shoot it. The neighbor phoophooed him. Next morning my brother shot the dog and threw it in his yard. the police came and were giving him the 3rd degree and he told them if they didn't have a warrant to arrest him to get the hell off his property. They did. The neighbor got another dog, but keept him tied and my brother still has his chickens, or did until Hurricane Rita borrowed them.

I do not like dogs, are not crazy about cats, and do not need a treehugger telling me they have human rights. They are animals and as such behave like animals.:banghead:
 
At one point I told her I almost shot her dogs because they charged us and I was afraid for my kids' lives. And I said next time I might. I know I shouldn't have said that, but you had to be there. I thought that I and maybe my kids could have been torn to pieces, and I was pissed that this woman didn't seem to give a damn.

I think you did the right thing telling her this. You let her know that you fear for the wellbeing of yourself and your kids and you don't want to but you would kill the dogs in defence of yourself and your kids. You gave her due warning that this could very well be a consequence of her not securing her animals.

I would follow up with a formal complait where you make sure they no you have warned her of what might happen if her dogs attack you or your kids again.

Also I would consider a law suit for the emotional distress that her failure to secure her animals has caused you.
 
In your extensive narrative, you left out the part about your calling the police.

You DID call the police to report this, didn't you?
 
I didn't file any complaints, for reasons explained above.

The guy who lives across the street, whose yard they were in (the owner's house is behind his), filed a complaint with animal control about them once, because the dogs are often in his yard (that's where they were when this happened this morning). The owners got a warning, and the next day his car was egged. It also did nothing to solve the problem.

These people keep these dogs locked in very small cages with no room for them to move around, and often leave them like that for a few days at a time. It doesn't sound like they're taught to be very friendly to people. And every once in a while, they get loose.
 
But, a couple quick thoughts...If the dog quit when you yelled at it you were probably NEVER in any danger...NONE, ZIP, ZILCH. If the dog was determined to bite you it would have, period.

I'm no dog whisperer, and I don't have to be. If a dog threatens me or my family on my own property he's bought and paid for. I've got no responsibility for someone else's unsafe property (the dog). Even if you were right (and you did say probably) what happens if one of the kids takes off running next time the dog decides to "play". My guess is the dog runs them down.

I think you've already gotten good advice. Definately make a report. Sounds like you live next to some real morons. I've seen that kind before.

One more thing, in some states a group of people can get together and sue a property owner to stop a nuisance activity. You'll need to hire your own lawyer to make it happen, but it may be a worthwhile endeavor.
 
Not at all what I said

Ok! We have a "nothing is the dogs fault" dog lover on the thread.

I have spent years involved in Dog training, primarily in Schutzhund Sport, although I've since retired due to health problems.

If I had a truly AGGRESSIVE dog, it would be put down immediately.

My point is that I have only seen, in many years of involvement with dogs, perhaps 2 or 3 truly aggressive dogs. One belonged to the trainer I worked with in Germany...He was put down...Another, against all advice from several trainers, was used for competition...He eventually nearly killed one of our club members (Took 4 hours of surgery to put his face back together). Note, however, that the person that got bit STILL regarded it as his fault, because he did something the dog didn't like, and knew that the dog wasn't stable.

In every dog bite case I've ever known about (probably 100 where I personally knew the people/dog/circumstances) in EVERY case I can point out exactly what the person did that caused the bite. That does NOT mean there are instances where bites are entirely unprovoked (Note: not INTENTIONALLY provoked, but provoked nonetheless)...But in all my years I've never seen one yet. Unfortunately, the converse of the above statement is usually true...its ALWAYS considered the dogs fault. I've seen way too many perfectly nice dogs destroyed, beause someone did something stupid, and got bit, often hardly a scratch. But these dogs are instantly considered "dangerous dogs".

And a side note: For those of you advocating pepper spray, or other non-fatal solutions...Think real hard on that one...While it will work on some dogs, on others it will just "flip the switch"...Meaning, now you have acted aggressively, and the dog will defend itself. My prized competition dog is like that..He will let anyone into the house, won't even bark, thinks all humans were put on earth to play with him. However, the instant you make a move that he would consider aggressive to my family or him...Well, its gonna get ugly REAL fast... This dog ignored the strongest electric collar we could put on him (An $1800 Teletak collar from Germany, on its highest setting, it will knock alot of dogs off their feet) when we were doing "off leash" protection work. A little pepper spray isn't even gonna phase him. But it WILL make him really, really angry.

As far as teaching young children about dogs..What's so hard about that?
My kids grew up amidst, and in constant contact with, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Malinois, Giant Schnauzers, Mastiffs, "Pit Bulls" and a gazillion other dogs. Note that many of these dogs were trained for either Schutzhund Sport, or as personal protection dogs. They know how to behave around dogs they don't know, and, most importantly, what NOT to do. Neither has ever been bitten by a dog, even "strange" dogs.

Simply, it baffles me that so many here, would consider people who are "afraid of guns" as being irrational, yet are just as irrationally afraid of dogs. Contrary to popular belief, 99.99% dogs are very predictable, much more so than humans.

P.S. based upon the description of the "incident" I can pretty much assure you that I would have ended up chasing those dogs so far away, you'd need a helicopter to find them. All bluff, no real guts. But that's just me, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
 
My point is that I have only seen, in many years of involvement with dogs, perhaps 2 or 3 truly aggressive dogs. One belonged to the trainer I worked with in Germany...He was put down...Another, against all advice from several trainers, was used for competition...He eventually nearly killed one of our club members (Took 4 hours of surgery to put his face back together). Note, however, that the person that got bit STILL regarded it as his fault, because he did something the dog didn't like, and knew that the dog wasn't stable.

In every dog bite case I've ever known about (probably 100 where I personally knew the people/dog/circumstances) in EVERY case I can point out exactly what the person did that caused the bite. That does NOT mean there are instances where bites are entirely unprovoked (Note: not INTENTIONALLY provoked, but provoked nonetheless)...But in all my years I've never seen one yet. Unfortunately, the converse of the above statement is usually true...its ALWAYS considered the dogs fault. I've seen way too many perfectly nice dogs destroyed, beause someone did something stupid, and got bit, often hardly a scratch. But these dogs are instantly considered "dangerous dogs".

It’s real simple, human life trumps canine life. Dog < humans. Sorry Fido, you take second place in the VIP contest.

A couple of questions:

If I walk down the street, and I am wearing a red shirt, and some gangbanger doesn’t like the red shirt as it goes against his gang colors, when he accosts and then ultimately shoots me, did I provoke him? Did I do something to “cause the” attack?

If I am walking through a parking lot and some thug demands my wallet, when I tell him no and he stabs me, did I provoke him? Did I do something to “cause the” attack?

Are you getting the point? I don’t care what the dog likes. I don’t care if Fido doesn’t want me to rush my kids into the car when he’s barking at me, F&#% Fido, and F&#% his owner too. Fido is an animal, and when animals misbehave and offensively attack humans or other animals, they need put down or put away, same as humans do, only the standard is rightfully much lower. If someone hits a dog, and the dog bites, that’s provoking an attack. Riding my bike, jogging, getting nervous when Fido is snarling at me, frantically shoving my kids into the car, yelling; none of that is provocation, none of it, unless you’re on the Animal Planet apparently.

And a side note: For those of you advocating pepper spray, or other non-fatal solutions...Think real hard on that one...While it will work on some dogs, on others it will just "flip the switch"...Meaning, now you have acted aggressively, and the dog will defend itself. My prized competition dog is like that..He will let anyone into the house, won't even bark, thinks all humans were put on earth to play with him. However, the instant you make a move that he would consider aggressive to my family or him...Well, its gonna get ugly REAL fast... This dog ignored the strongest electric collar we could put on him (An $1800 Teletak collar from Germany, on its highest setting, it will knock alot of dogs off their feet) when we were doing "off leash" protection work. A little pepper spray isn't even gonna phase him. But it WILL make him really, really angry.

Then we better use bullets. I agree.


As far as teaching young children about dogs..What's so hard about that?
My kids grew up amidst, and in constant contact with, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Malinois, Giant Schnauzers, Mastiffs, "Pit Bulls" and a gazillion other dogs. Note that many of these dogs were trained for either Schutzhund Sport, or as personal protection dogs. They know how to behave around dogs they don't know, and, most importantly, what NOT to do. Neither has ever been bitten by a dog, even "strange" dogs.

Exactly when did it become the responsibility of every parent to train their kids so that your dogs won’t bite them? How about keeping your dogs where they belong (collectively, not just you)? Exactly when did it become the fault of the victim when they got bit by a dog for minding their own business? It is not my responsibility to make sure your dog does not bite me, it is your responsibility to ensure that your dog does not bite me. How you do that is up to you, so long as it works and it doesn’t interfere with when, where and how I go about my business.


Simply, it baffles me that so many here, would consider people who are "afraid of guns" as being irrational, yet are just as irrationally afraid of dogs. Contrary to popular belief, 99.99% dogs are very predictable, much more so than humans.

Predictable? Animal behavior can be semi-predicted or perhaps forecasted, but it is not an exact science, to specifically label them predictable is a stretch. Most dogs are harmless, but all are capable of harm. If they have teeth, they bite, just the way Mother Nature intended them. It’s not an irrational fear, it’s simple self defense, if the dog acts aggressively or looks like he means business, I, nor any other human being is required to give Fido the benefit of the doubt…Darwin’s Law, the dogs that are too dumb not to snarl and threaten or attack humans don’t get to make little dumb puppies of their own. Unfortunately, the jerk that owned and failed to train Fido gets to have another dog in most circumstances, there’s a problem there, and I think it often begins there.

For the record, I am a dog person, have had German Shepherds (3), a Labrador Retriever and a Rottie in the family so far over the past 29 years, I love dogs, but I have serious contempt for any pet owner or person that advocates that it is up to anyone other than the owner to ensure that the dog does not bite anyone. Your dog, your responsibility. If you shirk that responsibility or if it somehow finds it’s way to my doorstep in the form of your dog acting aggressively and I feel I have no other viable option, sorry Charley, Fido gets a dirt nap and a date with the big dog catcher in the sky.
 
It's comforting to know that that there are those who can proclaim to know what these dogs' intentions were, how I unintentionally provoked them from a distance of about 100 yards while I was getting my kids into the car, and exactly how the scenario would have unfolded if they were there, as pertains to a situation they only heard about but didn't even witness for themselves. I'm humbled in the presence of the source of such knowledge and power. I'll be sure to log onto the forum and ask you what I should do (or better yet, what I did wrong) the next time I turn around and see these two snarling dogs charging straight at me and my kids. This thread is quickly sliding down the stupid slope.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, much appreciated. I'm done here.
 
As far as teaching young children about dogs..What's so hard about that? My kids grew up amidst, and in constant contact with, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Malinois, Giant Schnauzers, Mastiffs, "Pit Bulls" and a gazillion other dogs. Note that many of these dogs were trained for either Schutzhund Sport, or as personal protection dogs. They know how to behave around dogs they don't know, and, most importantly, what NOT to do. Neither has ever been bitten by a dog, even "strange" dogs.

If my kids are on the dog owners property I can see it. But I am not required to take on risk, or training requirements, just because my neighbor has a dog they can't manage. And I don't buy that you can predict animal behavior. Not in your own animal, and certainly not in anyone elses.

It reminds my of that guy in Florida with the tiger. It escaped and the police shot it. He just couldn't understand why they would do that. Fact is, he made the choice to live with the tiger. No one else did. That tiger's life was his responsibility and his alone.

Same with a dog. If my dog gets killed on someone else's property, I don't have a lot of reason to complain.
 
Pepper Spray

And I agree that you shouldn't trust your life, or that of another, to pepper spray. I've had it myself, it's not that bad. It's not going to stop anyone, or anything from doing something if they are really intent on it.
 
I've got a dog. She has never gotten out. EVER. I don't see how she will. She's an inside dog, I lock the doors and windows and she doesn't have opposible thumbs ;-) Ok, so you have an outside dog. Fine. Your dog gets out? FIX IT RIGHT AWAY! Your dog digs? FIX IT! You know it digs, what's the problem? You can't afford to fix a fence to contain your dog from the public? Then you can't afford to own a dog. If my dog gets out, whatever happens to it would clearly be my fault. She's my responsibility. I don't look at keeping her from getting out as protecting the public from her, I look at it as protecting her from the world. I'm supposed to have her under some sort of control in public. If you can't be bothered to train and deal with the responsibility of having your dog interact with the public, do NOT own a dog!

My dog is a sweetheart, and doesn't appear aggressive, but I've never been attacked so I don't actually know. When in the house, she barks, growls, defends it. In public, she'll charge and insist on getting pet by anyone she sees, rolling over at their feet. She's frickin' fast, I bet she looks scary charging at you from across the sidewalk. I have NEVER let her do this unless I get an OK from the other person. Otherwise, she's either on leash or on "stay". It is NOT someone else's responsibility to understand my dog's behaivor. Some people are afraid of dogs. Fine. They shouldn't be required to get over their irrational (in my eyes) fear just because they chose to walk outside at the same time I went to run with my dog.

If I have a small child over at my house and she pulls my dog's ears so hard my dog defends itself. That's MY fault. Why did I leave a small child alone with my dog? Not a lot of people visit my home (my wife and I are sorta hermit-like), but when they do, I get a read on their dog-tude first. I make it clear my dog loves people, she'll bother the vistor to be pet, she'll sorta jump on them (haven't got that trained out yet). Some people don't mind. Some people do. I have two choices, separate them from the dog, or tell them to deal with it. I usually error on the side of putting my dog in a room or outside until she calms down about the "new person".
 
I have loeve dogs my entire life. In fact, for most of it, I wanted to be a vet. I agree with the pepperspray. Dogs hate that worse than humans, HOWEVER, if a dog is very determined, it won't matter. I would say, if at worse, all they do is run to you, stand and bark, then file a complaint each and every single time and talk to the neighbors about it and tell them what is going on. Believe me, they will be on YOUR side. Everntually somone from animal control is going to have to take over. If not, you can involve the police and file charges against the woman as her dog is clearly a threat and has been numerous times and she has done nothing to stop it. If worse comes to worse, do NOT be afraid to put a hole in its head. You gotta do what you gotta do.
 
One thing that I forgot to post is that I still don't feel that killing or harming an offensive dog is the best idea, nor should it be the first option, it should be, as in all self-defense cases, the last resort where one is left with no viable or visible option. To run around shooting dogs just because they bark at you is not what I intended to advocate here and I am sorry if I gave that impression.
 
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