inexpensive home defense weapon vs high end.

[230therapy]

I choose to use moderately priced self-defense tools because that is what I can easily replace.

The gun involved in the shooting is a drop in the bucket in terms of cost. Someone once told me the rule of thumb is $50,000 per shot in legal fees (or should that be $50k per body?).

The gun is just another expense. If you cannot stand thinking of the gun that way, then it's probably not appropriate to use that vintage 1911 that Grandpa carried in WW II.

***

Armchair commandos keep AR rifles for home protection. Suppressors for home defense?

The problem with flat text is that the tone used in conversation to indicate a joke is not present. It can be difficult to remember this when you're chuckling while typing.

***

If it won't penetrate a wall, or has very limited wall penetration, how can you expect the bullet to penetrate clothing and variable dense human tissue to cause enough damage to stop the attack in a very short time?

There are more important topics to think about, such as which high end 1911 I'm going to buy next

***

BIRDSHOT IS FOR BIRDS!

I like that. It even says so in the name.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I have pistols, a shotgun and an AR I've got $2,000 in with the Aimpoint and mount. A bump in the night I'm probably going to investigate with a pistol. A bump is probably nothing but it needs to be investigated. Something more gets the shotgun. That is what I bought it for ten years before I bought the AR. I like the stopping power. I also think you would be less likely to into trouble in court with a shotgun than an assault rifle if you get some liberal on the jury or a crusading DA. Where I grew up everyone had a shotgun. Its hard to paint it as a weapon only owned by some mad militia guy. Recently, I've been thinking of going to the AR. I shoot the AR a lot more, I carried a M16 for 20 years in some bad places. I'm still thinking about it and I'd honestly say at this point you could make a case either way for one being the superior weapon. But the decision would have nothing to do with losing a more expensive weapon to the law.

 

[Hunterdad]

Who cares how much it cost? If it does end up as evidence, that means it most likely save your life, or the life of a loved one. $2K will seem like a steal when your wife and kids are sitting next to you.

 

[hardworker]

The 2000 would be worth it if price was directly related to quality, which it isn't. There's a too many reliable guns for less than 600 to bother listing. Expensive guns belong in politicians photo-shoots and shooting contests. If you spend two grand on a double barrel because you think it will save you better than a 400 dollar stevens you're wrong.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I have used 870's that I got back in the 1980's for under $200 bucks a Charter 38 in my pocket and Hi_point 45 in my easy chair. It is 12 feet from my EZ chair to the Front door. I can sitting put all my rounds in a 3 inch circle. The 12 Gauge destroys target The 45 about 1/1/2 inch circle the snub 2 with a flyer now and then.

 

[pro2]

Who said anything about bird shot?

Check out the ballistic characteristics regarding 00 buckshot. There is a reason why a shotgun filled with 00 buckshot is prized by soldiers in CQB.

In a nutshell, 00 buckshot as awsome stopping power, especially when compared with 5.56. It also loses velocity QUICKLY after impact.... it may penetrate a wall point blank, but the velocity will be greatly retarded (why would anyone shoot a wall point blank anyway?). It will not penetrate through multiple walls. Chances are you will have to fire down your hall way into the kitchen or front room. By the time the shot hits the wall at opposite side of the house, it has lost velocity and will not penetrate into your neighbor's home like 5.56 (or in combat, your buddies possibly stacked outside the building).

Regarding cost, I really like ex police S&W M-3000 series shotguns. Nearly identical to 870, without the plastic and aluminum.... and can be found for around $200.

 

[racine]

Concerns

The issue of confiscation has always been a primary one for me in HD or CCW. My primary concern is weapon familiarity, weapon reliability, stopping power, easy of use, penetration(ammo), simplicity, cost and durability of weapon. In as much as I like the 1911 trigger, I've not yet shot 1911s long enough to feel 99.99% confident in it's reliability( guess that comes from my lemon Para O but I've had a 1911 for as long as the Glock) so it's a glock in 40sw. I've got a history of 22 years with my glocks and it's dependability is superb. With the shotty issues, I'm using either a Remy 1100 or FN SLP. For rifle it will be either an M1 Garand for LD or a 223 for modest ranges but probably not within the house. I guess I'm not using that fancy red dot S_I 38 super for HD (don't have one anyhow).
So I guess my primary priority is reliability...

 

[staggerlee213]

'In a nutshell, 00 buckshot as awsome stopping power, especially when compared with 5.56. It also loses velocity QUICKLY after impact.... it may penetrate a wall point blank, but the velocity will be greatly retarded (why would anyone shoot a wall point blank anyway?). It will not penetrate through multiple walls.'

Oh really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYHBmNI8154

 

[Guns and more]

Picture a jury being told the defendant was waiting for a chance to kill someone.

1. He holds up a $2000 AR with all the bells and whistles, red dot, light, green laser.
2. He holds up a .410 you inherited from your grandpa.

Which one will the jury believe?

Hopefully, neither, but who knows?

 

[MTMilitiaman]

MTMilitiaman, please excuse my ignorance for my leading men through three Infantry deployments and service as a trained Sniper does not measure up to your vast real world knowledge and experience.

You're excused. We all learn something new every day...

 

[benEzra]

In a nutshell, 00 buckshot as awsome stopping power, especially when compared with 5.56. It also loses velocity QUICKLY after impact.... it may penetrate a wall point blank, but the velocity will be greatly retarded (why would anyone shoot a wall point blank anyway?). It will not penetrate through multiple walls. Chances are you will have to fire down your hall way into the kitchen or front room. By the time the shot hits the wall at opposite side of the house, it has lost velocity and will not penetrate into your neighbor's home like 5.56 (or in combat, your buddies possibly stacked outside the building).

00 buckshot can be expected to penetrate multiple American-style drywall-faced interior walls:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

In .223/5.56x45, civilians are not limited to using military FMJ, and civilian .223 JHP and light SP penetrates even less in wallboard than 00 buckshot does. If the situation is such that civilian .223 JHP would overpenetrate, so would 00 buckshot.

I do agree that 5.56x45mm FMJ is not the best choice for HD, particularly if you live in a lightly constructed home with close neighbors, but there are much better loads available for civilian use, and the civilian rounds are arguably more effective from a terminal ballistics standpoint anyway.

Picture a jury being told the defendant was waiting for a chance to kill someone.

1. He holds up a $2000 AR with all the bells and whistles, red dot, light, green laser.
2. He holds up a .410 you inherited from your grandpa.

Which one will the jury believe?

Hopefully, neither, but who knows?

I am not aware of any otherwise justifiable shooting that was ruled unjustifiable because someone used a AR-15 or civilian AK instead of something with a straight wooden stock. In the one study I have seen using polls of mock jurors, effects as to justifiability/unjustifiability were not statistically significant, even though that study intentionally used a very ambiguous case.

Generally speaking, if a self-defense shooting is clearly justifiable by the facts of the case, the model or styling of the weapon used generally does not come into play (assuming the weapon was a legally possessed Title 1 firearm). I am under the impression that weapon choice would generally come into play only if the case were questionable to start with. Weapon choice could play a bigger role in civil suits, though.

It seems to me that the choice of any practical NFA Title 1 firearm (whether handgun, rifle, or shotgun) would be much less important than things like the homeowner's demeanor, aggressive posturing prior to the incident ("trespassers will be shot" signs, that sort of thing), intoxication, and whether the homeowner was engaged in illegal activities at the time. I would expect that factors undermining the components of justifiability, i.e. imminent jeopardy and the mantle of innocence, would take precedence over the aesthetics of the firearm itself.

Where weapon choice can become more of a factor is in a civil case, particularly if an attempt is made to portray the shooting as a negligent discharge rather than intentional self-defense (which, as I understand it, would allow financial recovery from the homeowner's insurance). Demonstrated competence prior to the incident, and intelligent weapon choice (i.e., no hair triggers) can reduce the likelihood of such a claim.

But to go back to the .410 vs. AR question, there is unlikely to be any difference whatsoever in trial outcome between the two guns. One of them, however, is arguably a much more capable defensive weapon than the other. So it circles back around to using whatever effective weapon that you are most competent with. For me, that's a 9mm or an AR; for you, it may be something else.

 

[pro2]

Apparently, real world experience need not apply here.

Avoid shooting your walls point blank when you know your kids are on the other side... unless you live in a castle. Then again, if your walls are solid brick, you will not to shoot your way point plank with ANY firearm. Do you see where I am going with this? Common sense???

If your walls are so flimsy that you can put your fist through it (as with the walls used in the video), 0000 may be a better choice.

Please, do not use bird shot to protect your family.

If you are my neighbor, please do not use 5.56. Thanx. If you hate the idea of using a shotgun, and want to become more proficient with a sidearm, let me know. I'll join you at the range, I can also use the practice.

 

[SSN Vet]

Quick grab to defend against the boogie man home invader is and most likely always will be a handgun for me.... one that I shoot frequently and well.

Some day when I'm rich and famous, I'll put a laser grip on my Commander and that will be an improvement.

For me, the big black meanies are for Katrina redo scenarios or worse.

YMMV

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Apparently, real world experience need not apply here.

No. Apparently, your "real world experience" isn't the end-all, be-all experience. Other people have shot a lot of stuff too, and if the consensus is that their experience is contrary to yours, then maybe the only reasonable explanation(s) are that a) your experience is an anomaly or that b) you pulled the wrong lessons from your experience.

And the fact remains that racking a shotgun for dramatic effect looks just as asinine and retarded when you do it as it does when Steven Seagal does it. So if that is the extent of the knowledge you gleaned from your experience, do not pass "Go," do not collect $200...

 

[benEzra]

Avoid shooting your walls point blank when you know your kids are on the other side... unless you live in a castle.

Avoid shooting your walls at all if you know your kids are on the other side, if you live in a typical American home. Any firearm that will reliably incapacitate anything larger than a poodle will penetrate multiple layers of drywall at any inside-the-home distance.

Please, do not use bird shot to protect your family.

Agreed.

If you are my neighbor, please do not use 5.56. Thanx.

If I were your neighbor, you'd be less likely to have rounds exiting my house if I'm using .223 55gr JHP or 55gr SP than if I were using 00 buckshot or 9mm/.40/.45 JHP.

I realize you have quite a bit of experience with 5.56x45mm FMJ in structures (out of 14.5" M4's? or 20" M16's?), but M193/M855 are not civilian JHP. If you look at the link I posted, some of the civilian .223 loads fragmented when they hit the first sheet of drywall; they still exited the wall, but they didn't penetrate a second.

If you hate the idea of using a shotgun, and want to become more proficient with a sidearm, let me know. I'll join you at the range, I can also use the practice.

I don't hate the idea of using a shotgun, but I don't have enough interest in shotguns to own one at this point. I shoot USPSA with a 9mm and a 16" AR, and those are what I choose. I'm not knocking your choices at all, but 12ga is not the only rational choice.

 

[Hatterasguy]

I know someone who uses an MP5, pre ban class 3, ie the good one for HD. He used one in the service, except with a can on it. Said it worked great but was more for the shooters than not being heard like in the movies. Problem is as most of you guys know can's do not make for silent guns, and as he said when the rounds hit drywall or people they made a bit of noise.

 

[the foot]

I have my SIG-Sauer on the night table, but the gun in the corner there, my Remington 870 is what I reach for in the middle of the night. My M4 is in a safe, ready for use in other situations.

Out here in the country, with nobody around, my only worry is about my family's location in the house. No matter what weapon we use for home defense, we always have the problem of avoiding shooting in the direction of loved ones.

But my choice for home defense inside my house? First choice shotgun, backup handgun.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I have a Rem 870 loaded with 00 buck and an AK with a reflex sight and a light loaded with 124 gr Uly JHP. I am a rifleman. Even though I've put tens of thousands of rounds through the 12 gauge and feel more than adequately capable with it, I feel more confident in my abilities with the AK, and I prefer the added capabilities of that platform (and carbines in general) over the shotgun, so that is what I reach for first. The Glock 20 stoked with 175 gr Silvertips is a distant 3rd in most situations, unless I awake to find the intruder already in my room, or find the need to investigate something that requires more discretion than poking around in my boxers with an AK. Overall, weapon cost matters very little in my choices--more my confidence in my abilities with it, and my understanding of its capabilities for my needs. Regardless, I have adjusted my tactics so that I am not shooting towards my housemates.

 

[/k/anadian]

One thing I wanted to mention. I've been making shotgun slugs for cheap practice out of birdshot. I don't melt them or anything, I just close the shot cup with tape (no it doesn't leave residue, I've made that pretty definitive after the hundreds of shot-slugs I've fired). This basically means that I've been shooting safe cut shells. I want to shoot these birdshot slugs into ballistic gelatin to see how they do.

These might be safer alternatives to most loads. Even if it has to be loaded with a bigger shot size, like a duck shot size load instead of a skeet shot size load to get a 12" of penetration, it would still break up when hitting a wall, the shot would disperse and lose energy very rapidly, making it safer for family/neighbors. Basically making a glaser type safety shotgun slug. I have details on my blog, even a range video where I try these out. Fired them at water jugs, they were pretty impressive.

http://unlimitedshootingworks.blogspot.com/2010/07/very-cheap-shotgun-slugs.html
http://unlimitedshootingworks.blogspot.com/2010/10/thorough-series-advanced-shotshell.html
http://unlimitedshootingworks.blogspot.com/2010/10/thorough-series-range-time.html

I think it's not a bad idea.

 

[staggerlee213]

'If your walls are so flimsy that you can put your fist through it (as with the walls used in the video), 0000 may be a better choice.'

I don't know what your interior walls are made of but drywall is pretty much drywall everywhere and it's what almost any interior wall in the US will be made of

 

[Sheepdog1968]

My biggest conern about home defense weapons is reliability and enough stopping power. I think there are options out there (e.g. Mossberg 500, glocks) that can be both 100% reliable and inexpensive. From my perspective, confiscation is very low on my list of concerns.

 

[TexasGunbie]

I don't care if they confiscate my gun or take away everything I have as long as I survive.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I think there are options out there (e.g. Mossberg 500, glocks) that can be both 100% reliable and inexpensive.

I don't care if they confiscate my gun or take away everything I have as long as I survive.

Both of these are 100% correct and at the crux of the matter. I don't think the weapon cost should be a major concern to you when it comes to protecting yourself and your loved ones. Spend the money you need to get a reliable platform that you feel confident in. If you're one of the ones that does feel the extra cost of a certain platform, like a Noveske or an HK, over another platform, like a Stag or Glock, provides that much of a quality difference, then the confidence that affords you sleeping at night might be worth it. But effective solutions exist that don't cost a lot of money, so there is no need to spend a lot to be well protected.

 

[taliv]

rbernie is right as usual.

of course, I also shoot USPSA et al with pistols and ARs, and no longer own a shotgun.

If you think shotguns are the best thing evar, you should go to a 3gun match and watch people attempt to manipulate them under the "stress" of a timer. In my experience, your average n00b will fumble less with a pistol or rifle, and will clear malfunctions MUCH faster with rifle/pistol than a shotgun.


re: the OP, it's possible to get a reliable, inexpensive weapon, but like most things in life, usually you get what you pay for.

stereotypes, unfortunately, are a fact of life we have to deal with. I wish this graphic also had a column for "as seen by the responding officer"

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=548848

 

[Ole Coot]

Somehow I just can't see a better weapon than the 870 or Winchester Defender and if you need it price is the last consideration. I also keep a 45 on the nightstand but I use what feels right for me and a break in or home invasion in this part of WV is legal grounds to use any "necessary" force to save your hide.