12 gauge better than AR for home defense

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12Pump

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I know this subject has been done to death, but I think there's more to it than what's generally covered in most discussions. I gave it a lot of thought and concluded that the shotgun is best (for me, anyway). Here are my reasons:

Price--At least half of what an AR rifle costs.

Ammo--easier to find ammo locally at reasonable cost. Again, my own situation.

Breaking in period--I've noticed that a shotgun doesn't require nearly as much to determine whether or not it will function reliably, mostly because a pump is operated by the user. If a shell sticks slightly, the user just pulls back the slide a little harder for the next shot. If a shot is slightly underpowered, it won't affect the cycling to chamber the next round. An auto like the AR depends on the ammo to work consistently for the gun to work reliably. Therefore, a shotgun could be bought, and then determined reliable in relatively few shots. For an AR, people usually recommend about 200 rounds. That can be expensive and time consuming, unless you have the money and love shooting that much.

Quick into action--When a bump in the night occurs, you want to grab your gun quickly and have it ready to shoot. With a shotgun, I find it easier and more natural because I simply have to pick it up and assume a natural hold; right hand on grip, left hand on forearm. If a threat is determined to truly exist in the house, all I have to do is pump the forearm to chamber a round. But with the AR, either the left or right hand has to come off the gun to rack the charging handle, and then reassume a firing grip. With stock features, it is easier to rack the charging handle with the right hand--which is also the one used to pull the trigger. With the shotgun, the firing grip is maintained throughout the process. Of course, this can be negated by simply keeping a loaded chamber on the AR, but most people advise against that.

Muzzle blast--Much louder with the AR. Yeah, people say your hearing is the last thing you'll be concerned about, at least until afterwards. But with the AR's capacity of 30 rounds, can you imagine taking the muzzle blast of an AR 30 times?

Stopping Power--At the close ranges encountered in a home defense situation, the shotgun will put out around 1800 ft. lbs. of energy vs. 1150 for an AR. Using that energy over the area covered by 9 pellets of buckshot would do more damage.

Post shooting aftermath--The police will come, and the DA will determine whether or not you were justified in the shooting. They will then see what you used in the shooting. Would you rather them see that you used a commonly owned shotgun, which most of the public sees and recognizes, or would you rather it be an AR rifle, which has been portrayed to the public as "evil"? Some police and DAs will latch on to the idea that you could be seen as the bad guy simply by painting you as a person who is a gun nut just waiting for someone to break in so you could spray 'em down with your AR rifle. I know it's ridiculous, but keep in mind that the general public can be quite gullible and their emotions can be swayed, and also that lawyers and the media are quite skilled in that regard.

Now, with all this said, I'd like to point out that I own both. I also realize that the AR has features that put it above the shotgun, but I don't think enough of them apply to real-world home defense to warrant giving up the shotgun's advantages. If you want something that can shoot long range, then the AR is best, but that's not real-world home defense. Rapid follow-up shots are nice too, so the nod goes to the AR for that. Capacity is also on the side of the AR, but more than 8 would be hard to imagine needing, especially if we're talking about 8 rounds of buckshot.
 
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in florida the castle law, stand your ground law, and self defense law in general, precludes most of that risk, particularly in your own home. i'll take the ar-15, win the fight, then worry about the DA. won't sacrifice my safety using an inferior tool due to 'what ifs'
 
I think both are excellent choices and have pros and cons as you have outlined. Personally, I've gone with the shotgun. Others prefer a semi auto rifle. Choose, get training, and practice to become proficient.
 
I think both are excellent choices and have pros and cons as you have outlined. Personally, I've gone with the shotgun. Others prefer a semi auto rifle. Choose, get training, and practice to become proficient.
This is my stance as well. I also went the shotgun route but don't consider it better. I just don't enjoy shooting ARs and don't ever add firearms to my collection if I know they won't see much range time.

Pick your poison, get familiar and proficient with it.
 
This is my stance as well. I also went the shotgun route but don't consider it better. I just don't enjoy shooting ARs and don't ever add firearms to my collection if I know they won't see much range time.

I agree with you here. But I do have an AR, which I bought in case of something like a societal collapse, in which case I may be going up against multiple attackers in or outside the home at various distances, and who may be carrying AR's or AK's themselves. But for just home defense in a "normal" times scenario, I have the shotgun available. I wanted to justify having the AR out instead, and maybe just sell the shotgun, but after thinking carefully about it, had to conclude that the shotgun is better for now, and the AR for after a collapse.
 
12 gauge better than AR for home defense

No!

The only real advantage to a 12 ga. is cost and that is not nearly as wide a gap as it used to be.

A shotgun, 12 or 20 smacks you with about 30 ft lbs of recoil, about the same as a 300 WM. An AR about 5 ft lbs.

Softpoint 223/5.56 bullets are far less likely to over penetrate than slugs or buckshot. Just as effective when they hit.

An AR carbine is shorter and lighter, much easier to maneuver inside a home.

While the AR will cost a bit more, practice ammo is much cheaper.

At indoor ranges a shotguns pattern is so tight it offers no advantage in making hits easier. This is only a factor outdoors at ranges between 15 to about 35 yards.

Muzzle blast--Much louder with the AR.

Not in my experience

Price--At least half of what an AR rifle costs.

Not if you buy a decent quality shotgun. While a pump can be had cheaper than a semi-auto shotgun, and a pump is theoretically more reliable, A semi-auto shotgun is far more reliable in practice. Buying a quality semi shotgun will cost as much as an AR.

If someone already has a hunting shotgun and wants to make it do double duty it will work, and work well if the shooter does his part. But they offer no real advantages. As far as the military and LE is concerned shotguns are no longer a front line weapon. They are mostly used anymore for less than lethal ammo and door breaching.
 
One thing that may or may not be of concern is overpenetration to a room in the line if fire behind the BG. In that scenario, a 12 gauge buckshot will go through the drywall more readily than a .223.
 
Of course, this can be negated by simply keeping a loaded chamber on the AR, but most people advise against that.

Who is this "most people"? The vast majority of people I know (including trainers/police etc) recommend keeping a round chambered. If you think about it, you are leaving your gun in a ready position to prepare for a gun fight. Why on earth would you want to make it more difficult to bring into action? You wouldn't carry your CCW with an empty chamber, would you?

Also, most seem to recommend using your left hand to grasp the charging handle of the AR to cycle the action. If you use your hand or index finger to just snag the left side of the charging handle (depressing the latch), you can cycle the action without having to remove the gun from your shoulder.

Muzzle blast of both will be well beyond the pain threshold. Use electronic muffs: problem solved :D (ARs are also much easier to suppress, so there's that).

Also, any good lawyer should be able to argue that if using an AR, you are just using the same weapon that the police prefer for similar encounters, and that you are actually trying to limit over penetration and danger to bystanders by your choice of weapon.

For what it's worth, I am very good with a shotgun and have one coming that will be for defense, but my AK is beside my bed at the moment, and will likely remain as a primary defense weapon.
 
Price--A good AR costs about $800. Roughly double what a HD shotgun costs.

Ammo--Easier to find .223 locally AND online

Breaking in period-- There is no break in period with any decent quality AR.

Quick into action-- Flick the safety off, pull trigger. Seems pretty fast to me.

Muzzle blast--Irrelevant. Your going to be momentarily deaf after shooting either indoors.

Stopping Power--I'll take 20-30 50gr varmint rounds anyday over a shotty.

Post shooting aftermath--Irrelevant. If there is an intruder in your home, the law generally assumes they have harmful intent.
 
In that scenario, a 12 gauge buckshot will go through the drywall more readily than a .223.
On another thread, "Does an M14 turn cover into concealment" all sorts of things are being said about how great an AR 15 penetrates.

You can shoot through dry wall with a .22 LR -- a .223 will definitely go through drywall.
 
The shotgun is usually all that is needed in a HD situation.
Barring few exceptions, the AR is overkill, and more likely to exit your home and penetrate your neighbor's or neighbors', than a shotgun. I don't want any "collateral damage" for any avoidable action (negligence).
Also, to put this in the proper perspective, if you were allowed to choose between taking (receiving) one shot from either a shotgun or an AR, which would you choose. I'm gonna pick the AR. Better chance of enter & exit wound with less damage. Now, think of several shots. Shotgun has more projectiles, and better chance of striking you , too.
I have an AR ready if the situation changes.
 
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Barring few exceptions, the AR is overkill, and more likely to exit your home and penetrate your neighbor's or neighbors', than a shotgun. I don't want any "collateral damage" for any avoidable action (negligence).

There is, at this point, an avalanche of evidence available that many 5.56 loads tend to fragment in barriers and penetrates significantly fewer walls then buckshot. There's no excuse in continuing this particular myth.

As always the best HD weapon is the one YOU can put rounds on target fastest with. That will vary from person to person.
 
There is absolutely nothing presented here that hasn't been presented, supported, refuted, debunked, restated, tested, and argued over in a hundred threads here or on thousands of threads and blogs all over the 'net. At this point, it's just another iteration of the ".45 vs. 9mm" debate -- i.e., an argument with no definitive, universal answer that satisfies everyone.

Make your choice, practice, and worry about more important things.
 
and more likely to exit your home and penetrate your neighbor's or neighbors', than a shotgun.

This has been proven to be incorrect more than once. Wanting to find out ourselves what did and did not actually happen, a group of us did the building materials penetration testing with a wide range of firearms at typical room distances from the target face. We found that slower heavier rounds penetrated as far as or more than light high speed projectiles. Shotgun 00 went one more pair of drywall than 55gr 5.56. You don't get any advantage from shotguns. Spend a little time with Box O' Truth site to see their proof. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
 
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Who is this "most people"? The vast majority of people I know (including trainers/police etc) recommend keeping a round chambered. If you think about it, you are leaving your gun in a ready position to prepare for a gun fight. Why on earth would you want to make it more difficult to bring into action? You wouldn't carry your CCW with an empty chamber, would you?

Unlike modern pistols, most shotguns and ARs do not have any kind of firing pin blocks. Both ARs and shotguns have had plenty of accidental discharges. Up to you whether you think its better to have a potential accidental discharge in your home against an increase in readiness for a threat that may never happen. Personally, I don't keep either chambered while stored in the home and trust my pistol to buy time if things are that desperate.
 
12Pump Price--At least half of what an AR rifle costs.
Irrelevant to what is "better".

Ammo--easier to find ammo locally at reasonable cost. Again, my own situation.
Huh? Where do you live that .223/5.56 isn't as available as 12ga buckshot?
Price for quality 12ga 00 buckshot is about the same as quality .223


Breaking in period--I've noticed that a shotgun doesn't require nearly as much to determine whether or not it will function reliably, mostly because a pump is operated by the user. If a shell sticks slightly, the user just pulls back the slide a little harder for the next shot. If a shot is slightly underpowered, it won't affect the cycling to chamber the next round. An auto like the AR depends on the ammo to work consistently for the gun to work reliably. Therefore, a shotgun could be bought, and then determined reliable in relatively few shots. For an AR, people usually recommend about 200 rounds. That can be expensive and time consuming, unless you have the money and love shooting that much.
I'm pretty sure I knew that each of my ARs was "reliable" within the first mag.....and that was with a mix of brass cased federal, Wolf and Monarch.
Are you sure your pump shotgun can reliably operate with multiple brands? Many have difficulty with the cheap low brass loads as well.


Quick into action--When a bump in the night occurs, you want to grab your gun quickly and have it ready to shoot. With a shotgun, I find it easier and more natural because I simply have to pick it up and assume a natural hold; right hand on grip, left hand on forearm. If a threat is determined to truly exist in the house, all I have to do is pump the forearm to chamber a round. But with the AR, either the left or right hand has to come off the gun to rack the charging handle, and then reassume a firing grip. With stock features, it is easier to rack the charging handle with the right hand--which is also the one used to pull the trigger. With the shotgun, the firing grip is maintained throughout the process. Of course, this can be negated by simply keeping a loaded chamber on the AR, but most people advise against that.
That's a firearm familiarity and training problem. If you trained with your AR it would be faster.



Muzzle blast--Much louder with the AR. Yeah, people say your hearing is the last thing you'll be concerned about, at least until afterwards. But with the AR's capacity of 30 rounds, can you imagine taking the muzzle blast of an AR 30 times?
Can you imagine needing those thirty rounds? Apparently not.
The muzzle blast of thirty rounds isn't nearly as deafening as the moment you realize you are empty and have not stopped the threat.


Stopping Power--At the close ranges encountered in a home defense situation, the shotgun will put out around 1800 ft. lbs. of energy vs. 1150 for an AR. Using that energy over the area covered by 9 pellets of buckshot would do more damage.
What about the pellets that do not hit the target?


Post shooting aftermath--The police will come, and the DA will determine whether or not you were justified in the shooting. They will then see what you used in the shooting. Would you rather them see that you used a commonly owned shotgun, which most of the public sees and recognizes, or would you rather it be an AR rifle, which has been portrayed to the public as "evil"?
What a load of horsehockey.
What do you think those LE will be carrying? Odds are the responding officers will be carrying ARs, not shotguns.



Some police and DAs will latch on to the idea that you could be seen as the bad guy simply by painting you as a person who is a gun nut just waiting for someone to break in so you could spray 'em down with your AR rifle.
Sure they will.:rolleyes:


I know it's ridiculous,
Then why write such nonsense?


but keep in mind that the general public can be quite gullible and their emotions can be swayed, and also that lawyers and the media are quite skilled in that regard.
So what?
I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.


Now, with all this said, I'd like to point out that I own both. I also realize that the AR has features that put it above the shotgun, but I don't think enough of them apply to real-world home defense to warrant giving up the shotgun's advantages. If you want something that can shoot long range, then the AR is best, but that's not real-world home defense. Rapid follow-up shots are nice too, so the nod goes to the AR for that. Capacity is also on the side of the AR, but more than 8 would be hard to imagine needing, especially if we're talking about 8 rounds of buckshot.
Full disclosure...........my "home defense" guns are two pump short barreled shotguns and handguns. I would feel equally comfortable using one of my Ar15s.
 
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I agree with all those who have already stated this thread is going nowhere.

What variation of this thread is next? I think a 20' wide 20' deep moat is better to defend my house than 10ft barbed wire fence? Opps not firearm related. How about muskets and blunderbuss's?

Respectfully, a thread shouldn't be started with a disclaimer that "we have all argued about this before, but let's go down the path one more time.

I am happy this is THR and not some other sites.
 
I think it boils down to which platform you are most competent and experienced with. If you are primarily a shotgunner, then the 12-gauge pump or semiauto will be an excellent defensive weapon. For me, as primarily a pistol and rifle shooter, I find that I am better served with a carbine.

Price--At least half of what an AR rifle costs.
A decent off-the-shelf AR suitable for HD will run you about $550-600, and you can get a Chinese IAC Hawk (870 clone) for about $220, so you have a good point there; I don't think you can find any effective self-defense firearm less expensive than a pump shotgun. Cost for ammo between 12-gauge and .223 JHP is comparable (I'm seeing a little over $1/round for good 12-gauge 2 3/4" buckshot, and a little less than $1/round for Winchester 55gr .223 softpoint, with cheaper value-pack ammo available for both if so desired).

A reliable semiauto shotgun will probably set you back more than a reliable AR will, but that's just a guess.

Ammo--easier to find ammo locally at reasonable cost. Again, my own situation.
That probably depends on where you live. In my area, it's a wash.

Breaking in period--I've noticed that a shotgun doesn't require nearly as much to determine whether or not it will function reliably, mostly because a pump is operated by the user. If a shell sticks slightly, the user just pulls back the slide a little harder for the next shot. If a shot is slightly underpowered, it won't affect the cycling to chamber the next round. An auto like the AR depends on the ammo to work consistently for the gun to work reliably. Therefore, a shotgun could be bought, and then determined reliable in relatively few shots. For an AR, people usually recommend about 200 rounds. That can be expensive and time consuming, unless you have the money and love shooting that much.
Good point. On the other hand, unless you are very well practiced with a pump shotgun, they are easy to short-stroke under stress, and heaven help you if you forget to press the little button that unlocks the action when you really really need it. Ideally, you'll shoot either enough to be familiar with it, but I understand why someone on a very tight budget might choose the shotgun without testing it much.

Quick into action--When a bump in the night occurs, you want to grab your gun quickly and have it ready to shoot. With a shotgun, I find it easier and more natural because I simply have to pick it up and assume a natural hold; right hand on grip, left hand on forearm. If a threat is determined to truly exist in the house, all I have to do is pump the forearm to chamber a round. But with the AR, either the left or right hand has to come off the gun to rack the charging handle, and then reassume a firing grip. With stock features, it is easier to rack the charging handle with the right hand--which is also the one used to pull the trigger. With the shotgun, the firing grip is maintained throughout the process. Of course, this can be negated by simply keeping a loaded chamber on the AR, but most people advise against that.
As long as you have a way to secure the weapon when not in use, and you choose a modern weapon with a well-designed manual safety, I'd personally prefer the chamber loaded regardless of whether it's a shotgun or an AR, but I suppose it would depend on the particular shotgun.

Muzzle blast--Much louder with the AR. Yeah, people say your hearing is the last thing you'll be concerned about, at least until afterwards. But with the AR's capacity of 30 rounds, can you imagine taking the muzzle blast of an AR 30 times?
If you compare an 18" barreled shotgun to a 16" barreled AR without a muzzle brake, they are very similar in terms of peak decibels. Putting a brake on an AR will make it much louder, though, and will also increase the muzzle blast. I'd personally not want a brake or comp on any gun that might be used indoors.

Nor is there a rule that says you have to empty the magazine. The AR has more reserve capacity, but that just means that reloading it under stress is less likely to be necessary, not that you have to fire more shots.

Stopping Power--At the close ranges encountered in a home defense situation, the shotgun will put out around 1800 ft. lbs. of energy vs. 1150 for an AR. Using that energy over the area covered by 9 pellets of buckshot would do more damage.
One point in favor of the shotgun, assuming a single intruder. I'd want a shotgun with as much reserve capacity as possible, though.

On the other hand, the AR kicks far less, and is faster in transitions. And even at only 1150 ft-lb or so, that's still twice the energy of a .357.

Post shooting aftermath--The police will come, and the DA will determine whether or not you were justified in the shooting. They will then see what you used in the shooting. Would you rather them see that you used a commonly owned shotgun, which most of the public sees and recognizes, or would you rather it be an AR rifle, which has been portrayed to the public as "evil"?
I think that is far less of a difference now, particularly if you are comparing a "combat" shotgun (rather than a bird gun) to an AR. The AR is the most popular civilian rifle in U.S. homes, so outside of a few wacky states, an AR shouldn't make a difference as long as you acted responsibly and within the law.

Capacity is also on the side of the AR, but more than 8 would be hard to imagine needing, especially if we're talking about 8 rounds of buckshot.
It's not just the rounds one might expend, but how many one wants remaining in the gun while waiting for police backup, which could be anywhere from 5 to 30+ minutes, depending on where one lives. And many of the value-priced shotguns only hold 5 shells, not 8+1. For me, I'd want a shotgun with good reserve capacity and a way to top it off quickly, personally (say, extra shells in a sidesaddle, at minimum).

One additional consideration is how easy the gun is to equip and operate with a light (an essential for a defensive long gun, IMO). AR's are easy to set up with a light, but I don't know enough about the shotgun market to generalize. How easy would it be to set up an 870 or an IAC Hawk with a light?

To sum up, I'd say it's a pretty even matchup; for me, the carbine works best, but a 12-gauge is certainly a fine HD weapon as well.
 
Since 12pump has already confessed to owning both the AR and the shotgun, which one would you rather have to give up to the police as evidence, after a self defense shooting?
 
As a concerned layman I am obligated to make sure you all are aware that this and similar threads, those containing the numerals 9 and 45 come to mind, can be contributing factors to a sudden loss of emotional stability and may indeed initiate a slow, inexorable spiral into the chaotic depths of self flagellated cognitive dissonance from which no one is yet known to have returned.
 
i eat with the Sheriff pretty regularly. I go to church with the DA and we shoot practical pistol matches together. In the highly unlikely event that they were called to my house for an unscheduled shooting and discovered I had used a shotgun, they would probably order a psych eval for me after they got done guffawing at me

of course, since i don't own a shotgun the only way that would happen is if i had to take it away from the intruder and shoot them with their own gun.
 
Wanting to find out ourselves what did and did not actually happen, a group of us did the building materials penetration testing with a wide range of firearms at typical room distances from the target face. We found that slower heavier rounds penetrated as far as or more than light high speed projectiles. Shotgun 00 went one more pair of drywall than 55gr 5.56.
I note, though, that your walls were only one sheet thick. The typical interior wall is hollow, with sheetrock on both sides -- so the four-wall test is really a two-wall test.

Regardless, you have made your point. A 5.56 or a load of 00 buck will penetrate the wall behind the bad guy, transit the next room, and go through that wall into the room behind that one.
 
This has been proven to be incorrect more than once. Wanting to find out ourselves what did and did not actually happen, a group of us did the building materials penetration testing with a wide range of firearms at typical room distances from the target face. We found that slower heavier rounds penetrated as far as or more than light high speed projectiles. Shotgun 00 went one more pair of drywall than 55gr 5.56. You don't get any advantage from shotguns. Spend a little time with Box O' Truth site to see their proof. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
I don't believe the site referred to proved your point. The 00 Buck, 5.56mm, even .30 cal. M1 Carbine all passed through the four drywalls mentioned, and kept going. The only fired round quoted that didn't penetrate the fourth wall was Birdshot, which was not suggested as a man stopper. There was no testing beyond the fourth wall.
 
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