Home Defense weapon, help me make a decision

[AStone]

Then get a scoped major caliber center-fire rifle (.308 or .30-06 for ammo availability); then a 10/22. Or reverse that order. With the center fire rifle, get good enough to hit pie sized targets from improvised field positions (not the flippin' bench), under time pressure, with one shot out to 400 yards.

Mr. Legrand, nice to find you out from the political dungeons for a few minutes at least. Too much politics, even with well written treatises, dulls a good mind.

As per your rifle recommendations, I agree there, also.

I followed your reverse order: .22LR first, and later will order a centerfire, probably .308, or maybe 7mm08.

I did it that way as a kid, also: Remington Nylon 66 .22LR, then Marlin 336 in .35. Sold both in two moments of stupidity...or was it financial need? I forget.

Anyway, I've now added a CZ 452 to my tool kit to replace my long lost Rem Nylon 66. The CZ, unlike the nylon & the 10/22, is a bolt action (allowing more precision than a semiauto, forcing taking more time for aiming).

My centerfire (purchased months from now as finances allow) will also be a bolt. I want to take whitetail, mule deer, antelope & - in a needs dictated SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation - an elk. Again, I'm thinking .308 or 7mm08, but I KNOW it will be a bolt.

Those - the 870P, CZ452 and a centerfire bolt - along with my K9 & SW 642 will keep me busy for a few years.

Nem

 

[Taurus 66]

So Nematocyst, how are you?

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Mr. Legrand, nice to find you out from the political dungeons for a few minutes at least. Too much politics, even with well written treatises, dulls a good mind.

As per your rifle recommendations, I agree there, also.

I followed your reverse order: .22LR first, and later will order a centerfire, probably .308, or maybe 7mm08.

I did it that way as a kid, also: Remington Nylon 66 .22LR, then Marlin 336 in .35. Sold both in two moments of stupidity...or was it financial need? I forget.

Anyway, I've now added a CZ 452 to my tool kit to replace my long lost Rem Nylon 66. The CZ, unlike the nylon & the 10/22, is a bolt action (allowing more precision than a semiauto, forcing taking more time for aiming).

My centerfire (purchased months from now as finances allow) will also be a bolt. I want to take whitetail, mule deer, antelope & - in a needs dictated SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation - an elk. Again, I'm thinking .308 or 7mm08, but I KNOW it will be a bolt.

Those - the 870P, CZ452 and a centerfire bolt - along with my K9 & SW 642 will keep me busy for a few years.

Nem

Well, Nem, you're certainly on the right track. As a well-stocked personal library, selection is more important than quantity. I've also heard many good things as to the CZ.

As one who has the pleasure of residing in elk country, and who has had the pleasure of hunting them, I still think a good general-purpose gun (capable of taking all N. Am. game) is the .06, despite the need for a longer action than that allowed by the .308. Ammo availability settles the matter for me.

But then, I am an opinionated son-of-a.....gun.

 

[AStone]

So Nematocyst, how are you?

Most excellent, Taurus. Thanks. Hope you are as well.

I still think a good general-purpose gun (capable of taking all N. Am. game) is the .06, despite the need for a longer action than that allowed by the .308. Ammo availability settles the matter for me.

But then, I am an opinionated son-of-a.....gun.

Wow, you must be the only opinionated gun owner on THR.

I've definitely considered the '06, but the recoil issue made me rethink it.

AND, I like smaller where smaller is adequate +.

I'm not going to be hunting moose, or griz or polar bear. I'm going to be hunting deer & antelope, and perhaps elk.

I'm thinking 7mm08 would do the job (even if stretching a bit for elk), but .308 would do the job nicely.

Plus, all those milsurps should da shtf, if you catch my drift.

And all that gain for far less pain,
offering more motivation to shoot more rnds at the range.

I'll know when the time comes. It's a ways off yet.

Nem

 

[Lebben-B]

NYEnthusiast,

Before giving you my opinion, I would first ask how much firearms experience you have. If your experience level is low (not everybody that owns a gun has the advantage of growing up with them), I would recommend taking a class first.

For home defense, I agree that a shotty is a good choice. But also include a good flashlight in with the cost of the shotgun.

Buying a new gun is much like buying a new pair of shoes, you have to find one that fits. Mossberg, Win, and Rem are all about equal and they all have their fans. Try as many as you can and find the one that fits you best.

Mike

 

[Dwayne Russell]

Personal Defense

In your situation I would opt for the Shotgun. I personally have the Mossberg 590 12 Gauge with a Scorpion light because of what you have just described. I have 2 rounds of double ought buck backed up by rifled slugs.

Regarding a handgun. Forget automatics. The last thing you want to be doing is trying to engage a safety half awake with an intruder in your bedroom. Keep it simple any decent sized revolver will do the job.

I was in a home invasion robbery situation at 1:30 AM on Jan 2nd 2000. The first man came through the master bedroom sliding glass window and met the business end of my Dan Wesson. The second ran for his life. Afterward the officers told me the average home invasion robbery is done by 2.8 assailants. Considering this I went out immediately and bought the shotgun.

Even people who don’t own a gun know the sound of a shotgun slide means death. And very few have the guts to charge into a shotgun knowing they have little if any change of living through it.

Please listen to Ledden-B as he is giving you some very good advice.

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

My brother has only one shotgun, its the norinco version of the 870 and he uses it for self defense. He loads it like this:first is one #4 shotshell, which he uses for the first shot(hopefully a warning or wounding shot) the other four shells ar 00 buckshot for heavy(killing or seriously wounding) shots.

The #4 shot can be lethal or course, but he hopes it will either scare any potential assailant into submission, or wound him in a non-lethal manner.

He also a Hi-Point 40 S&W(it was his HP that got me interested in mine) and an SA XD-40(also in 40 S&W). If he thought the intruder would only be stopped by deadly force, he would not use his shottie, instead he'd grap his HP and/or XD-40(or perhaps his SKS).

Over penatration is not a problem: he lives in semi country and his nearest neighbor is about 600 yards away and there is a hill between the home that take any hit that would over penetrate his walls in the direction of his neighbor and his other neighbor is over a mile a way and theres a woodlot about 100 square yards in size of thick brush in between the homes.

 

[Taurus 66]

Event people who don’t own a gun know the sound of a shotgun slide means death. And very few have the guts to charge into a shotgun knowing they have little if any change of living through it.

I have never read a reputable written report showing that anyone, whether sane and sober or hyped on PCP, has survived a center mass hit from a 12 gauge. It's like facing a channeled claymore mine - absolutely devestating to blood vessels, tissue, and bone.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

He loads it like this:first is one #4 shotshell, which he uses for the first shot(hopefully a warning or wounding shot)

"Warning shots" are generally considered very inadvisable under the most circumstances. If it's a life-or-death situation, why are you wasting time and ammo shooting the air? If it's not a life-or-death situation, then why in the heck are you shooting a gun?

"Wounding shots" are not legal in the United States. Use of a firearm constitutes lethal force: if it would not be legal and ethical to shoot someone dead in a given situation, you absolutely should not shoot them.

Your brother should strongly re-evaluate his defensive mindset.

-MV

 

[AStone]

00 rain

... a center mass hit from a 12 gauge. It's like facing a channeled claymore mine - absolutely devestating to blood vessels, tissue, and bone.

Looks over on the table at the 870, five 70 mm 00 buck standing upright beside it, primers down, and acknowledges - once again - the responsibility that goes with that lethal tool.

Then, I hear the sound of rain from a three-day-old storm pelting a metal roof, and again find at least momentary peace ...

 

[rustymaggot]

I have never read a reputable written report showing that anyone, whether sane and sober or hyped on PCP, has survived a center mass hit from a 12 gauge. It's like facing a channeled claymore mine - absolutely devestating to blood vessels, tissue, and bone.

birdshot it can happen. ive known a few er nurses and they have said that birdshot can stop at the ribs. not always, but it can happen.

once i saw a episode of 'cops' where a overweight kid got hit with a 12 gauge of birdshot and the kid was walking around when the ambulance got there.

however, if your talking about 00 buck, then i agree, ive never heard of anyone surviving a center of mass shot of that.

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

"Warning shots" are generally considered very inadvisable under the most circumstances. If it's a life-or-death situation, why are you wasting time and ammo shooting the air? If it's not a life-or-death situation, then why in the heck are you shooting a gun?

"Wounding shots" are not legal in the United States. Use of a firearm constitutes lethal force: if it would not be legal and ethical to shoot someone dead in a given situation, you absolutely should not shoot them.

Your brother should strongly re-evaluate his defensive mindset.

-MV

They're illegal? Are you sure? He usually uses his XD-40 for anything were he truely believes their might be danger. Its his CCW pistol and hes a great shot at it. Would it be legal to pistol whip an intruder or use a baseball bat to defend yourself? If so why can't you not shoot to kill? I see no logical reason why you would have to kill an intruder if he's unarmed but for some reason comes at you.

 

[dzimmerm]

FYI

Hi Point Carbines do come in .40 caliber now. Not that I am advising for or against them.

dzimmerm

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

Hi Point Carbines do come in .40 caliber now. Not that I am advising for or against them.

dzimmerm

The Hi-Points are nice for their price, in my opinion. I'd advise anyone who wants a 9mm or 40S&W carbine to look into them.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

They're illegal? Are you sure? He usually uses his XD-40 for anything were he truely believes their might be danger. Its his CCW pistol and hes a great shot at it. Would it be legal to pistol whip an intruder or use a baseball bat to defend yourself? If so why can't you not shoot to kill? I see no logical reason why you would have to kill an intruder if he's unarmed but for some reason comes at you.

Good questions, I'll give it my best shot:

1) I'd say "illegal" would be a fair description, in that it is not legally or ethically justifiable to apply lethal force (a firearm) when the situation did not call for lethal force. A firearm is not a "less than lethal" option. Thus "I was only trying to wound him when I hit his femoral artery causing him to bleed to death" would be a very, very poor legal excuse.

2) Pistol whipping: besides probably being patently unsafe to smack around a loaded firearm, also probably a bad idea. If someone means you harm, and is within arms reach, then you're generally justified in shooting them. Doing anything less would imply that you really weren't in much danger. If you're not in immediate danger and you hit someone with your pistol, then he's a victim and you're a criminal who just committed assault.

3) Baseball bat: Not sure in the civilian world, but in the Marines we were taught that a strike to the head with a riot-baton was considered "lethal force". If someone's attacking you and you hit them with a baseball bat and accidentally kill them, it'll be a matter of whether you justifiably feared for your life or not. Pretty much the same as with a gun. No such thing as "he wasn't particularly going to hurt me, but I thought it'd help things if I smacked him around some."

I see no logical reason why you would have to kill an intruder if he's unarmed but for some reason comes at you.

Well, he either is capable and willing of causing you lethal injury, in which case you shoot him, or he isn't, in which case you don't. There is no such thing as "kinda sorta" shooting someone. Either lethal action is justified, or you don't shoot.

Does that clear it up a bit? I'm sure someone more eloquent will come along later, but that's my take on things for now. -MV

 

[carebear]

That's pretty thorough Matt.

To reiterate, firearms for non-LEO's are ALWAYS deadly force, if you choose to shoot to wound, you better have been perfectly justified in shooting to stop/kill.

Typically, if there is not a reasonable threat of death or grievous bodily harm you are not justified to use deadly force, only that level of force required to stop the threat. You can, in most places, legally escalate the level of force a step (since you are the innocent defender) i.e. you aren't required to engage in a lengthy mutual slap fight with an attacking interior designer, you can just deck the guy with a closed fist. But until he changes up to hair pulling and cat scratches, you can't hit him with your purse.

 

[ingram]

Topic creator, if you are considering a pistol caliber carbine, you may need to think about how you are going to acquire ammunition for it. I know where I live, I can't buy handgun bullets like .45 or 9mm due to my age (not being 21). If this isn't the case everywhere please feel free to correct me.

 

[DevLcL]

An M1 Carbine and a Mossy clone are both sitting pretty in my humble abode, usually ready to rock and roll. In a home invasion type situation the bad guy is probably going to be very close by the time you realize him/her, so obviously the shotgun would be imployed. In a SHTF situation (the threat is obvious and you have at least a couple minutes to prepare yourself) I'd go for the carbine which I could use effectively against any position in my immediate neighborhood. What I mean by this is that If I walk out my front (or back) door there are structures in all directions with the furthest being about 100 yards. None of which are more then one story so I wouldn't be too worried about anyone having a higher ground advantage over me. Getting back to the topic, the shotgun is probably a good first choice. I feel long shots are much easier to make with a rifle then with a 12ga using slugs, So get both. Just make sure you don't get confused about which one to grab in the heat of battle! (I'm always afraid of doing that for some weird reason @ myself)

-Dev

 

[DevLcL]

An M1 Carbine and a Mossy clone are both sitting pretty in my humble abode usually ready to rock and roll. In a home invasion type situation the bad guy is probably going to be very close by the time you realize him/her, so obviously the shotgun would be imployed. In a SHTF situation, (the threat is obvious and you have at least a couple minutes to prepare yourself) I'd go for the carbine which I could use effectively against any position in my immediate neighborhood. What I mean by this is that if I walk out my front (or back) door there are structures in all directions with the furthest being about 100 yards. None of which are more then one story so I wouldn't be too worried about anyone having a higher ground advantage over me. Getting back to the topic, the shotgun is probably a good first choice. I feel long shots are much easier to make with a rifle then with a 12ga using slugs, so get both. Just make sure you don't get confused about which one to grab in the heat of battle! (I'm always afraid of doing that for some weird reason @ myself)


*edit* As far as not being old enough to buy handgun ammo...well.... most of the time the local wally-world employee will sell to you when you explain that its for a rifle. They usually ask you wether your buying your ammo for a rifle or handgun anyway right? All you gotta do is tell the truth.

-Dev

 

[hso]

Shotgun good, but you still have to aim a tactical shotgun when shooting at house ranges (you point a bird/rabbit shotgun at moving targets, you aim at deer and people).

Stay away from pistol calibre carbines. You gain no advantages, have all the overpenetration problems of 9mm, .40 cal, .45 cal (for those not familiar with pistol vs shotgun vs 5.56/7.62 penetration in building materials please see the http://www.theboxotruth.com/ website), and have an unwieldy pistol with a stock.

I love M1 carbines, but wouldn't grab mine if the AR or .45 were closer. The .30 carbine round will kill a man, but it won't stop a fight as fast as a 5.56 or .45 or #6 shot. They're also expensive now a days compared to a SU16.

If NY won't let you have AR or AK clones go with a Ruger Ranch Rifle or an SU16 in 5.56. You get minimal wall shoot throughs compared to 00 or 9mm and they can have accessories like a light hung on them to help in a dark apartment/house.

 

[Frandy]

Just read this entire thread...

Given your situation, I would say get the 12 gauge. Do you have a place where you can practice? If so, do it. If not, you will be less than prepared.

I lived in NY state for many years, most of it as a single male on the ground floor apartment in a two-apartment house in the country. It was the 12 gauge that stood loaded and ready for intruders. I made sure I was proficient with it, practicing with self-defense loads. The pistols and AR/carbines came afterward.

Thirty years later, I still have a 12 gauge at the ready, though I also have a 1911, a .357 revolver, and my M-1 carbine loaded and available. Should my home be invaded, I will assume it is more than one individual and the shotgun or the carbine is my first line of defense, depending on which one I grab first.

One man's opinion.

 

[Kodiaz]

Well Unless you want to spend 1000's of rounds and hundreds of hours mastering a pistol get a shotgun you can be surgical with one after 100's of rounds (upper hundreds) and be able to deal with most clowns after your second trip to the range. Now if your new to firearms.


The absolute most important thing to be concerned about before you put stock to shoulder is safety. Number 2, 3, 4 are safety safety and safety. Read the 4 rules 400 hundred times and here are mine. 1 All guns are loaded. 2 Don't point a gun at anything you don't want to put a huge gaping hole in. Do not stick your finger in the trigger guard until your ready to shoot.


Now when the stock is to your shoulder the most important thing is Hit the Target. Every time you shoot your new weapon clean it. and by clean I mean read the manual where it says Field Strip do that and clean everything in there until it looks like new. If you neglect your weapon, your weapon will neglect you.

As far as HD loads well I use what walmart has my "warning shot" is the 3" 00 buck that has BG(badguy) #1 looking like BBQ pulled pork. If there is a BG #2 he should consider himself warned.

Welcome to gunownership. Welcome to THR.

Oops I forgot. The less people know you have a gun the better. Lots of people will not understand why you want to have a firearm. As for you, the first time something odd happens and you chamber a round while you call 911, you will have the comfort of knowing you don't need the police if anything bad happens.

 

[BozemanMT]

That's pretty thorough Matt.

To reiterate, firearms for non-LEO's are ALWAYS deadly force, if you choose to shoot to wound, you better have been perfectly justified in shooting to stop/kill.

Typically, if there is not a reasonable threat of death or grievous bodily harm you are not justified to use deadly force, only that level of force required to stop the threat. You can, in most places, legally escalate the level of force a step (since you are the innocent defender) i.e. you aren't required to engage in a lengthy mutual slap fight with an attacking interior designer, you can just deck the guy with a closed fist. But until he changes up to hair pulling and cat scratches, you can't hit him with your purse.

totally agree with all this and Matt's. If you are pulling the trigger, you should be ending the threat. There are no warning shots, that's very bad doctrine that is being taught.
Besides, the legal issues (all bad) there are also tactical issues. You have 5 to 7 shots in that shotgun. You just wasted one, he's still coming, there are 1.8 more guys, you adreiline is pumping, people are screaming, you are going to miss, etc. End the threat and move to the next threat. Period.
Anything else is just foolish. People much more knowledgeable than I are going to tell you the same thing.

 

[LaEscopeta]

NYenthusiast:

Assuming you are still reading this thread, I’ll try to get it drifting back to your original question.

I agree with all the posts above recommending training and practice.

If you already have training, I can also agree with a lot of the firearms choices listed above.

If you are just staring shooting, I don’t think a 12 gage shotgun or centerfire rifle are your best choice. I’m sure you will be able to learn to handle them, but most people find them difficult to start with. Like a lot of people, I was taught as a kid to shoot .22 rifles and 20 gage shotguns. This lets your learn the basics of safe firearm handling and marksmanship with out have to learn how to deal with heavy recoil. Once you get the basics down, you can move on to more capable and powerful firearms. If you start trying to learn on something like a 12 gage, you might pick up bad habits that could be hard to break.

A .22 rifle is generally considered the best training tool; you can pick up skills you will also need for shotguns and handguns. A 20 gage (or less) shotgun is also good for training, but the point-aiming and trigger slap used in shotgunning flying targets will lead to poor marksmanship with a rifle or handguns. And speaking of which, handguns are harder to aim then rifles/shotguns, have a more complicated “manual of arms”, and are not particularly good threat-stoppers. Handguns are generally not what you want to learn on.

Most people on this site have more enthusiasm, time and money to spend on their shooting hobby then the average person. If you are more like the average person, and do not intend to buy gun after gun, I recommend a 20 gage pump shotgun. It is well suited to your stated main use of home defense, and will be easy to quickly become proficient shooting. Plus, pump shotguns are cheaper than similar quality rifles or handguns. It is hard to go wrong with a Remington, Mossberg or Winchester (FN) pump gun.

Hope this helps.

 

[V4Vendetta]

Mossberg 590 Mariner. MSRP: $528.00

9 shots. 20" barrell. That's my reccomendation.