Interesting failure to stop

[the lone gunman]

as to the effectiveness of the 45 , I belive the real deal is the type of bullet used more than the caliber, 30yrs ago when I had my first 45acp I have seen the standard round nose glance off empty metal oil cans with out creating any type hole if not hit dead center. I think they would bounce off bone also.dont get me wrong ,I love the 45acp, I have one at arms length right now , my 9mm is in my truck right now, neither are loaded with round nose bullets. It has always been my thought that you want a bullet that will NOT exit. so that way all the energy is transfered to the target, be it man or beast. Sure full penetration on a game animal will leave a better blood trail. but had it gone in and expanded properly the game animal may well have gone down in its tracks.

 

[hceptj]

I never felt it when I was shot...I didn't really start to feel it until they started cleaning the wound at the hospital...went clean through my left side just above the hip bone area...doesn't surprise me at all the guy didn't know he was shot.

 

[M2 Carbine]

About 1962 a county policeman had stopped a car at night for a broken tail light. While sitting in the front seat of the police car it came over the radio that the man was wanted for stealing four tires.
When the BG heard that he pulled a GI 45 and shot the LEO in the side. The LEO grabbed the gun at the same time, with the slide back.
The BG jumped out ran across a big field.
Why, no one knows, but the LEO gave chase without even calling in. Maybe like "hceptj" said, the LEO didn't know he was shot.
The LEO had been shot with a lead SWC and bled to death running across the field.
It was quite some time before the police car and dead LEO were found.

As a side note.
In those days (I was a LEO in 1960) you didn't hurt or kill a LEO without a VERY high risk of not living to go to trial.
A friend was on that county department and said the BG, with his lawyer, turned himself in at TV station.
From then on the BG constantly had a FBI agent guarding him.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Another failure of the MIGHTY 45. Small wonder why it failed so miserably as a police round.

Maybe you missed this one 3 posts above yours:

In the video "Deadly Effects" there is a morgue picture of a man's back who had been shot forty three (yes 43) times with 9mm JHP ammo (that didn't expand).
(posting the picture probably wouldn't be THR)

Something over twenty exit holes can be seen in his back.
The man CONTINUED to fight until he was stopped with 2 (or 3) 12ga shotgun slugs. That also exited his back.

Not far above that was this one:

Took a 9mm through the leg right above my knee in a range accident , never noticed it until someone pointed out to me my leg was bleeding , but that was ball ammo tho ... It all depends on the person frame of mind and most importantly , shot placement .

And this one above it:

No drugs necessary, just a little panic and old fashioned adrenalin. One of my partners shot himself in the leg. The bullet entered his calf just below the knee and exited just above the ankle. His little boy was standing next to him and he snatched him up and checked him over and even had time to find the hole in the carpet before he realized he was hit! It was a 180gr 40 cal Gold Dot. It didn't expand.

Its all about shot placement. For a handgun round to stop someone cold, the round needs to damage the CNS. However, if the bullet passes thru a major organ (lets say lung or liver), I am still of the opinion that a .45 bullet from a respected manufacturer such as Federal will impose more damage to that organ than other common defensive auto load calibers.

 

[Kingslayer]

Am I the only one more impressed that he had the frame of mind to roll his own vehicle?

 

[WildcatRegi]

LA Expressway

I seem to recall an incident quite some time ago when a Chip got into a firefight with a guy on a California highway - the police officer was shot 5 times with a .357 mag and the perp was shot 6 times with a .38 special - both lived.

That's why I have a .44 mag.

 

[EBRDude]

I was struck in the face with a high-velocity projectile (Let's call it shrapnel)
a few years back. It almost totally severed my thumb before it struck my orbital/cheekbone area.( I was aiming a weapon at the time)
I never noticed the thumb was hanging by some skin until the Medics pointed it out. I was really more worried about the head wound. Neither wound stopped me, but they did make me feel a bit under the weather..

Putting someone down requires more effort than you might think.

 

[M2 Carbine]

WildcatRegi
That's why I have a .44 mag.

The two guns that have always scared me are the 44 Mag and 12ga close up with 00 or slugs.

But even the 44 mag won't do it all the time.
In "Deadly Effects" a man is shown that was shot in the face, close up, with a 44 mag pistol.
Too graphic to describe it, but the man could have returned fire before he died.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

Officer Stacy Lim

"After a softball game and a stop-over at the Northeast Station to check her work assignment, Officer Stacy Lim arrived home in Canyon Country at about 1 a.m., Saturday, June 9, 1990. She didn’t know that the car behind her had followed her from Los Angeles, or that it carried four hardcore gang members, intent on stealing her truck. One of the young bandits was armed with a .357-Magnum revolver. Now, because she believed that she had been followed for some unknown reason, she carried her 9-millimeter service weapon in her hand. When she saw the large pistol in the hand of the advancing figure, she was ready to defend herself.

Officer Lim did a humane thing – instead of immediately firing at the shadowy figure with a gun, she purposely advised him that she was a police officer. From a distance of about 5 feet, the young gunman, without warning, responded to Officer Lim’s unselfish act by firing his weapon directly into her chest. The bullet struck her with an impact equal to being hit by an 18-wheeled truck doing 60 miles-an-hour. The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found. Critically wounded, the officer brought up her weapon and fired one round which struck her assailant. He then turned and ran, but the officer followed him and fired three more rounds, which hit and fatally wounded the gunman. He had fired all six of his bullets at Officer Lim, who now returned to the front of her vehicle to fight off any further attackers, unaware that the others had driven away in panic. They were all taken into custody the same day.

Now realizing her danger from her massive wound, she tried to reach her doorway, but collapsed. Her roommates, alerted by the shooting, found her and called for medical aid. The officer had already lost so much blood, that that alone made her condition critical.

Police and Medical personnel at the scene estimated that she had no chance for recovery, and doctors at the hospital gave her only an hour to live. Her family was summoned.

However, she refused to die and survived three full cardiac arrests. By responding to a 90-minute heart massage, she showed her will to live. Her sense of duty and personal courage were equaled only by her reverence for the life of another, because she had placed herself at dire risk by giving a warning to an armed attacker. She had given him an opportunity to surrender and live. Her action upheld the highest traditions of the Los Angeles Police Department and is hereby recognized by awarding her with the Medal of Valor."
http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/27327

 

[Soybomb]

I'm reasonably convinced there is no magic in stopping people. We're just machines, break the right parts and we'll stop. Break the stuff thats not important and we'll keep running.

 

[thexrayboy]

Handgun ammunition is infamous for the spectacular damage they can do to the human body and for the simultaneous fact that they can be notoriously ineffective at stopping a determined attack. The vagaries and unpredictable
actions of pistol rounds, all of which can be considered low energy when compared to common hunting caliber rifle ammunition means that their performance even under controlled circumstances is difficult to predict. We, along with LEO carry a pistol for one reason. It is small enough and convenient enough to carry with us routinely. When a weapon comes along that offers the accuracy, energy and sheer ability to stop the actions of the intended target that matches what can be found in a high end hunting round
yet can be carried and fired conveniently we will all stand in long lines to get this new wunderkin. Until then we accept the compromise that handguns are.

A handgun is to use while you fight your way to your rifle or away from your attacker. A trite but rather true aphorism.

 

[Cosmoline]

The bullet struck her with an impact equal to being hit by an 18-wheeled truck doing 60 miles-an-hour.

Absolute hogwash. 400 or 500 ft. lbs. is nowhere in the same universe as the forces involved when an 18 wheeler hits something at 60 MPH. That sort of nonsense makes me question the entire article.

A truck going at that speed will hit with MILLIONS of ft. lbs., flowing steel like warm plastic. Even a glancing blow, imparting a small percent of the total force, is enough to send a man flying like a ragdoll. It will knock him out of his boots, and the forces are enough to tear his internal organs apart. No firearm this side of a field piece has that kind of power. A full-on impact into a wall would turn a human body into a liquid goo.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8591879745880686794

 

[Davo]

Its all placement, followed by reaction to being shot. Cailber is way down the list.
Punch 5 people in the face and you may get 5 different reactions to the same stimulous. People have survived getting hit with a .50 BMG, and people have died from a bb gun.
Ive seen it in a Cal-trans worker who didnt know he has been "sniped", to a girl whos Chollo boyfriend had just been shot and killed next to her (she SWORE she was shot, and acted the part...not a scratch on her). Many people Ive seen are simply in a daze after such an incident.
Each incident is unique though. The variables in a shooting are too numerous to simply say "well THIS gun would have worked".

 

[mjrodney]

Soybomb wrote,

break the right parts and we'll stop. Break the stuff thats not important and we'll keep running.

It really is as simple as that.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

Absolute hogwash. 400 or 500 ft. lbs. is nowhere in the same universe as the forces involved when an 18 wheeler hits something at 60 MPH. That sort of nonsense makes me question the entire article.

While I agree the wording is poor, the event actually happened. The article is from the LAPD.

 

[DrDremel]

As for the story of Officer Stacy Lim,
A man coming at you, 5 feet away with a gun at 1am is not the time to announce you are a police officer. That is not an act of valor but an act of stupidity. She had the false notion that the announcement that she was a police officer would magically make a criminal stop their act of violence. She nearly lost her life because she thought that her job title would intimidate the criminal. In the LAPD she might have been considered a hero but I don't see any heroic action. She did not act out of reverence for the criminals mind. She screwed up. LAPD chose to give her an award because she was lucky to survive her mistake. The award for this casts a poor light on those that gave the award and lessens the significance of those that actually did earn an award for true valor.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Interesting failure to stop ...

This week I had to sit in on a trial involving a drug ripoff. The "victim" was in the driver's seat of an SUV and was shot through the thigh with a .45 Gold Dot from a 5" 1911 type pistol by a guy leaning over from the back seat. Don't know the bullet weight. The bullet went deep enough to touch his femur but glanced off without breaking it, passing out the back of his leg. ...

Anyway, I thought it was odd that someone could take a .45 Gold Dot through the thigh and not notice it. Says something about how effective handguns really are.

There have been lots of accounts of folks shot and not known it or not realized that they were seriously injured. On top of that appendicular shots are not known for their great ability to stop if they are simply soft tissue injuries. In non-vital area, even large calibers often fail, from pistols, rifles, and the like.

Thats pretty crazy - first that it didn't break the femur.

No, not crazy. The guy was probably hit in the shaft of the femur and the shaft has some of the thickest cortical bone bone in the body and a structurally powerful tubular shape. On top of that, if hit at any angle other than absolute perpendicular, the impact would have been glancing. The further off from perpindicular, the more the glance, hence the less likely of the round to damage the bone.

 

[Sec421]

There are a lot of "Old Wives Tales" of the .45. "The recoil will knock you through a barn door." "the bullet will stop a mammoth, Elephant, and still pass through an army of Pygmi warriors." and so on. Now I am a big fan or mine. I see no reason what-so-ever to change out, But... it only takes a .22 to drop anything. Argueing about caliber has always irritated me. It's like argueing religon [which always lead into who has the bigger badder imaginary friend]
LoL My mother taught me long ago [more than 2 decades] Never discuss religon, sex, or politics with a stranger. Personally I think caliber should be in there somewhere too.
There is no perfect round, only perfect round placement.

 

[Wes Janson]

I am curious, though, if anyone has ever heard of an incident of a failure to stop with a .50 BMG, .600 Nitro Express, 20mm Vulcan, or something similarly disinclined to be diverted from it's prior trajectory.

 

[Davo]

Wes im sure its happened, but documented evidence will be much harder with these as these are military rounds and in addition many of these guys would have been hit with multiple rounds soon after.