Intifada in France?

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SSN Vet

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Is this what the fall of western Europe will look like??

Somehow tolerance has reduced treason to a non-issue.

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EPINAY-SUR-SEINE, France — On a routine call, three unwitting police officers fell into a trap. A car darted out to block their path, and dozens of hooded youths surged out of the darkness to attack them with stones, bats and tear gas before fleeing. One officer was hospitalized.

The recent ambush was emblematic of what some officers say has become a near-perpetual and increasingly violent conflict between police and gangs in tough, largely immigrant French neighborhoods that were the scene of a three-week paroxysm of rioting last year.

One small police union claims officers are facing a "permanent intifada." Police injuries have risen in the year since the wave of violence.

National police reported 2,458 cases of violence against officers in the first six months of the year, on pace to top the 4,246 cases recorded for all of 2005 and the 3,842 in 2004. Firefighters and rescue workers have also been targeted — and some now receive police escorts in such areas.

On Sunday, a band of about 30 youths, some wearing masks, forced passengers out of a bus in a southern Paris suburb in broad daylight Sunday, set it on fire, then stoned firefighters who came to the rescue, police said. No one was injured. Two people were arrested, one of them a 13-year-old, according to LCI television.

More broadly, worsening violence in France testifies to Europe's growing struggle to integrate its ethnic minorities. Some mainstream European politicians — adopting positions previously confined largely to far-right fringes — are suggesting that the minorities themselves are not doing enough to adapt to European mores.

In Britain, former Foreign Minister Jack Straw, now leader of the House of Commons, this month touched off a wide debate about the rights and obligations of Muslims by saying that he asks devout Muslim women to remove their veils when visiting his office. Prime Minister Tony Blair said Islam needs to modernize.

In France, a high school teacher received death threats, forcing him into hiding, after he wrote a newspaper editorial in September saying Muslim fundamentalists are trying to muzzle Europe's democratic liberties.

Ethnic integration and violence against police are both becoming issues in the campaign for the French presidency. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, the leading contender on the right, said this month that those who do not love France do not have to stay, echoing a longtime slogan of the extreme-right National Front: "France, love it or leave it."

Michel Thooris, head of the small Action Police union, claims that the new violence is taking on an Islamic fundamentalist tinge.

"Many youths, many arsonists, many vandals behind the violence do it to cries of 'Allah Akbar' (God is Great) when our police cars are stoned," he said in an interview.

Larger, more mainstream police unions sharply disagree that the suburban unrest has any religious basis. However, they do say that some youth gangs no longer seem content to throw stones or torch cars and instead appear determined to hurt police officers — or worse.

"First, it was a rock here or there. Then it was rocks by the dozen. Now, they're leading operations of an almost military sort to trap us," said Loic Lecouplier, a police union official in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north of Paris. "These are acts of war."

Sadio Sylla, an unemployed mother of three, watched the Oct. 13 ambush of the police patrol in Epinay-sur-Seine from her second-floor window. She, other witnesses and police union officials said up to 50 masked youths dashed out from behind trees.

One of the three officers needed 30 stitches to his face after being struck by a rock. On Saturday, five people were placed under investigation for attempted murder in relation to the ambush.

The attack was one of at least four gang beatings of police in Parisian suburbs since Sept. 19. Early Friday, a dozen hooded people hurled stones, iron bars and bottles filled with gasoline at two police vehicles in Aulnay-sous-Bois, a flashpoint of last year's riots, said Guillaume Godet, a city hall spokesman. One officer required three stitches to his head.

Minority youths have long complained that police are more heavy-handed in their dealings with them than with whites, demanding their papers and frisking them for no apparent reason.

Such perceived ill-treatment fuels feelings of injustice, as do the difficulties that many youths from immigrant families have finding work.

Distrust and tension thrive. Rumors have flown around some housing projects that police are hoping to use the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which ends this week, to round up known troublemakers, on the basis that fasting all day will have made the youths weaker and easier to catch.

Police say that suggestion is ludicrous. However, they are on guard ahead of the first anniversary this week of last year's riots. That violence began after two youths who thought police were chasing them hid in a power substation and were electrocuted to death.

Police unions suspect that the recent attacks may be an attempt to spark new riots.

"We are getting the impression these youths want a 'remake' of what happened last year," said Fred Lagache, national secretary of the Alliance police union. "The youths are trying to cause a police error to justify chaos."
 
I guess I missed something along the way. I saw this article this morning but I have to admit I have no idea what Intifada is and searches have not helped me much.

Anyone have the Readers Digest version?
 
There's no War on Terror. It's all Rethuglican propaganda to scare you into voting against your own best interests like higher taxes on the money you earn.

This is just a law-enforcment problem. The hijackers on 9/11 were part of a small, isolated group. We just need to arrest those involved, bring them to trial, and give them a couple years in Club Fed with time off for good behavior, and a couple years of probation.

You're all just Islamophobes. Racists! It's wrong to keep your eye on a whole fanatical religious subgroup because of the actions of a few criminals.

Europe does things right. We need to be more like Europe. Everything is wonderful there (well, except that many bourgeois Brits hang their clothes to dry because electricity is so overtaxed and fly to India so they can get operations, gas is $6 a gallon, the EU Court has determined that Free Speech doesn't mean the right to criticise the government for chrissakes...)

Move along, nothing to see here.
 
Intifada =

what's been going on in Israel/Palestine for the last 4 years......it's an all hands revolt.....

somehow I suspect that they won't just be throwing stones for long.

Spain is gone....they jump when the Islamofacist say jump.

France has been placating them for years.....they'll be the next ones to drop.

Then Germany......

Then ????
 
Even little Norway ,population 4.5 million has taken in many. The muslim population is 10% muslim, 20% in the capitol Oslo and 30% in Oslo schools. Now they are finding that some of the stolen cars in Norway end up in Iraq and are used for suicide bombers and other terrorist things ! In the middle ages Europe fought so hard to keep out the muslims but now, all PC ,they've been inviting them in !! It's down hill rapidly from now on .
 
As I recall French police are armed, correct me if I'm wrong. Being attacked, Why didn't they shoot, one wonders.
 
France, meet your friends the "palestinians" whom the Israelis have been treating so "harshly" :rolleyes: :p


I fear that a look at current western europe is a look into our own future :uhoh:

But somehow I still fail to see how invading tinpot dictatorships in the Middle East has anything to do with immigrants coming into our country and raising hell :confused:

But maybe since we have our borders so well secured, we needed something else to do :rolleyes:
 
alan said:

As I recall French police are armed, correct me if I'm wrong. Being attacked, Why didn't they shoot, one wonders.

When I went to Paris, France I noticed that most police only had batons and pepper spray on their utility belts. But there were other police that had different uniforms and they were carrying guns. So I think different law enforcement groups are allowed certain things, while the average police aren't allowed to have sidearms because it might offend people or it might intimidate and terrify the innocent Muslim hoodlums who run rampant.

So chances are, the police that were ambushed by the masked hoodlums were probably unarmed I'm thinking. Besides, if they WERE armed and actually shot and injured/killed a muslim kid, then that would have caused some serious uproar, not only from the disgruntled minorities, but extreme left-wing French I'm sure would have a fun time showing that this is why France should completely disarm and fight Muslims with 'love and citizenship' rather than 'guns and terror' or some nonsense to that effect.


Somekid said:

In all states cops are armed, and in most states we can be armed as well. The Muslim problem could be solved so simply if only they weren't so gutless over here

I don't think there is a "Muslim problem" in the US though. The difference between the US and Europe in this area is that American Muslims tend to actually assimilate into our society and become very "American" after a generation or two. Whereas in Europe, they are basically creating their own little countries inside of their respective host nations and the NATIVE Europeans are actually assimilating to Islamic culture slowly but surely.

The whole world might become invested with militant Islam, but America won't be, atleast not for a while. We have a very different outlook and as long as Americans are freedom-loving and armed to the teeth, hopefully it will stay that way.
 
I don't think there is a "Muslim problem" in the US though. The difference between the US and Europe in this area is that American Muslims tend to actually assimilate into our society and become very "American" after a generation or two. Whereas in Europe, they are basically creating their own little countries inside of their respective host nations and the NATIVE Europeans are actually assimilating to Islamic culture slowly but surely.

Very well put. The best description of the situation I've seen.
 
I don't think there is a "Muslim problem" in the US though. The difference between the US and Europe in this area is that American Muslims tend to actually assimilate into our society and become very "American" after a generation or two. Whereas in Europe, they are basically creating their own little countries inside of their respective host nations and the NATIVE Europeans are actually assimilating to Islamic culture slowly but surely.

Not to condone violence, but note that failure to assimilate creates a vicious cycle: the less you assimilate, the less the community helps you to assimilate, and you end up with mutually antagonistic ethnic groups.

That's the interesting thing about the U.S.: a lot of folks fit in really well after a single generation. They still have connections to their heritage food/music/religion (although rarely language), but are otherwise pretty similar to everyone else. Some groups cleave closer, others further.

Being from the Midwest, and later the PacNW, I found it bizarre to meet Irish-Americans from Boston and Chicago that actually considered themselves "Irish" after eight generations. It just seemed fundamentally un-American.


and the NATIVE Europeans are actually assimilating to Islamic culture slowly but surely.

Hmmm, that one I'm a little patchy on, care to support it? With the exception of a few white kids changing religion, either for shock value or because they're dating a Muslim, how are Europeans being assimilated into Islamic culture? Making concessions, maybe, but assimilation is a strong word. Kinda goes far beyond Germans eating kabobs for lunch instead of bratwurst.

Man I love kabobs (and bratwurst)!

-MV
 
how are Europeans being assimilated into Islamic culture? Making concessions, maybe, but assimilation is a strong word.

The muslim populations are growing far faster then the native European populations, in many countries muslims make up 30% of the youth and they are not assimilating. In 20 to 30 years it is possible for several European contries to become Islamic. So in the strictest since Europeans are not being assimilated they are just being replaced, while muslims are calling for more and more sharian law to be inforced all over Europe.
 
Just to stir things up a bit:

It seems like a lot of you are really overreacting. Yes, these things are bad, but to describe this as "Europe has already fallen" is absolutely absurd. Violent street gangs and occasional death threats do not mark the fall of a civilization. Setting things on fire and throwing rocks at the cops is something you might see here in Columbus after a big Ohio State game.

France using their military to conquer and subjugate Algeria constituted an invasion. A relatively small number of Algerians committing these crimes in France does not.

Finally, what does this have to do with firearms? There are plenty of other forums out there devoted to these issues.

I don't mean this as a personal attack on anyone; I just get amazed at the reaction some people have :eek:
 
Violent street gangs and occasional death threats do not mark the fall of a civilization.

True enough.

The fact that this sort of thing has been happening at a growing pace around Europe, though, coupled with the utterly amazing inability of Europe to respond decisively, does suggest that this is the start of the end. Things could change.

Meanwhile, various countries, including Britain, which I figure will be the last holdout if Europe does slip away, are busily passing laws that criminalize the wrong sort of talk about Muslims.
 
The fact that this sort of thing has been happening at a growing pace around Europe, though, coupled with the utterly amazing inability of Europe to respond decisively, does suggest that this is the start of the end.

Sure, and if gas prices continue as they have over the last few months, it's obvious that within a few years gas stations will be paying us to take their product, right?

This is an upward trend in crime, but there's no indication that it will continue until Europe falls to angry poor Muslim youths.
 
This is an upward trend in crime, but there's no indication that it will continue until Europe falls to angry poor Muslim youths.

It will if muslims keep having babies at the rate they do and Europeans keep having babies at the rate they do.

It seems like a lot of you are really overreacting. Yes, these things are bad, but to describe this as "Europe has already fallen" is absolutely absurd. Violent street gangs and occasional death threats do not mark the fall of a civilization. Setting things on fire and throwing rocks at the cops is something you might see here in Columbus after a big Ohio State game.

I have never seen the youths of Columbus riot for 3 to 4 weeks after a big Ohio state game or them calling for the beheading of anybody who criticizes Christianity. If you do not get the difference you have not been paying attention. As for guns, well we all need more.
 
The Irish in America are a different story. They are some of the most loyal Americans you will find.

However, they they tend to keep stronger ties with their Irish roots than other Euro ethnic groups, because of the history of their struggle against the British. This continues today. Did you know that TODAY, if you are a Catholic in Northern Ireland, you CANNOT vote unless you meet certain land/education requirements? This is preposterous, but it gives you a sense of why the American Irish have such solidarity with their homeland.

There is a great story in my family. My Great Uncle on my mom's side (at my great uncle's generation, 100 percent Irish. He was 4th generation American, however) was about 19 when it became clear the U.S. was going to start drafting people to fight WWII. He immediately joined the Medical Corps. He said (and he meant it) that he would kill himself before he fought to help the English. He used to say that he hated the Nazis, but if they killed Englishmen, they couldn't be all bad.

I am getting sort of off topic, so I digress.

I am 20, and have dated 3 Muslim girls, including my current one. I also have about 3 good Muslim friends and several Muslim aquantinces. Pakistani, Persian, Palestinian, etc. All of them 1st generation born in the U.S. You cannot tell them apart from your "average" American college student. They are barely aquainted with their parents languages, are only half-heartedly religious, and usualy reject the majority of the "norms" their parents expect them to follow in favor of more "American" ones. Totaly different from European Muslims.
 
Malice said:
Did you know that TODAY, if you are a Catholic in Northern Ireland, you CANNOT vote unless you meet certain land/education requirements?

I'd appreciate an up-to-date link verifying this claim.
 
It will if muslims keep having babies at the rate they do and Europeans keep having babies at the rate they do.

Both birthrate and tendency toward rioting tend to be a function of poverty. It's not as if the rioting last year was ideological (even if a few participants were).

I have never seen the youths of Columbus riot for 3 to 4 weeks after a big Ohio state game

Perhaps a better analogy would be the French rioting in response to the youth labor bill earlier this year. In that case, the violence was more directed towards people (mostly police) instead of property (the Muslim youths last year mostly burned cars), and yet no one declared the end of Western Civilization then. I suspect it has something to do with the color of their skin and the manner in which they worship God.

If you do not get the difference you have not been paying attention.

I've been paying plenty of attention. Don't accuse me of ignorance just because I interpret events differently from you.

As for guns, well we all need more.

Wow. That's quite a stretch. With that kind of logic, one could probably pick news articles at random and relate them back to guns.
 
The fact that this sort of thing has been happening at a growing pace around Europe, though, coupled with the utterly amazing inability of Europe to respond decisively, does suggest that this is the start of the end. Things could change.

Um, nope! There isn't any actual sign of "this sort of thing has been happening at a growing pace around Europe" that is apparent to those of us actually living here.

Actually I've met several muslim families both here in scandinavia and in the UK. To be honest they aren't any more militant than any other folks.

Maybe gangs of youths cause trouble in inner cities in the US too, and factors other than religion are at the root?
 
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