Intifada in France?

[Thin Black Line]

France is a perfect example of what happens when socialist idiots are in
charge from within a nation's urban centers. France's "full employment"
experiment was completely unsustainable from the start. At some point due to
a combination of rising population and/or dwindling resources, it was going to
be stretched beyond its capacity. One of the responses to this problem has
been a growing real estate bubble in parts of the country where the market
will in effect shut people out who can't afford to live there. This will just
lead to further stratification, resulting in disparity, resentment, and ultimately
more social problems.

I hope the best for the rural people of France with their long-standing
traditions of farming and hunting......

 

[longeyes]

Um, nope! There isn't any actual sign of "this sort of thing has been happening at a growing pace around Europe" that is apparent to those of us actually living here.

Actually I've met several muslim families both here in scandinavia and in the UK. To be honest they aren't any more militant than any other folks.

Maybe gangs of youths cause trouble in inner cities in the US too, and factors other than religion are at the root?

Perhaps you're ignoring the expanding sections of several major Scandinavian cities that police will no longer enter?

 

[SSN Vet]

factors that influence the change of culture

The reason why I posted this thread and why I believe it's very pertinent to the broad topic of freedom and gun rights is because the call of the "radical" Islamists (Wahhabis and Shiites) is for the creation of Islamic states that are governed by theocrats (i.e. Iran's Guardian Council) and incorporate Sharia law as the law of the land. If you don't think Sharia law will severely restrict your freedoms as you know them now, I suggest that you are ill informed.

Regarding Europe......specifically France, Spain and Germany... the topic I'm proposing is that they are heading towards becoming Islamic states. The reasons I think this is plausible include....

1.) birth rates. On a recent radio article on population growth and trends, they stated that the average birthrate of ethnic Germans in Germany is 1.1 children per household and that their government was offering monetary incentives for German women to have more children. The birthrate of ethnic Turks (mostly Muslim) in Germany was stated as being close to 6 children per household.

2.) economic factors. The socialist states of Europe will not be able to sustain their very generous assistance programs (state healthcare, pensions, unemployment assistance....) and when you factor this with consistently high unemployment rates, the relatively low starting point on the economic ladder of the immigrants, and other factors such as prejudice, I think you have all the ingredients for a disenfranchised, disconnected under class of young Muslim men who are looking to follow an ideology that will empower them.

3.) Potential for tolerant social laws to backfire as they are manipulated by extremely intolerant people who are very willing to work the system towards it's own demise. This is probably more of an issue in the U.S. as we have a codified Bill of Rights and a very active judicial system. As seen in the U.K. recently, in their parliamentary democracy (without a Bill of Rights that are codified in the very structure of their government) they can inhibit the rights of their citizens with a simple majority vote in parliament. Though this has the potential to help them "fight" internal rebellion by restricting things like public speech, etc... it seems like it could have the same effect that gun laws have in the U.S. (only criminals will have guns) and as the law abiding Europeans submissively line up, their "countrymen" who believe that they are bound by a different and higher law may choose to not comply. So, while honest attempts to spotlight the intolerance of Muslims in a reasonable public debate could lead European editorial writers (not to mention cartoonist) into legal trouble, the preferred forum for the Muslim immigrants, the mosque, could fill up with fire brand preachers very adept at whipping up the passions of their disgruntled youth.

4.) A general lack of will to oppose the trend. This is only my speculation (based mostly on conversations with Austrian friends). An ostrich like approach.....problem....what problem....there's no problem here. Like many here in the states, there is a refusal to believe that Muslim leaders actually mean what they say and intend to actively pursue their agenda as stated (example being Iran's president's insistance that Israel is going to be obliterated).

So there's my musings on the topic (and I don't claim to be an authority on it by any means).

If you find the thread totally unrelated to what you perceive THR is all about, you shouldn't have wasted your time reading it.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

is because the call of the "radical" Islamists (Wahhabis and Shiites)

Who absolutely loathe each other with a white-hot passion... You might as well say "The Aryan Nation and Earth First" for as much good as lumping them together does.


Some good points are being brought up here (and some not-so-good), however I think there's a lot of essentializing going on here. Euro Muslims aren't one cohesive block, and these issues aren't really about religion (IMO).

However, the religious factor can be dangerous as everyone starts to assume that religion really is the motivating factor.

is for the creation of Islamic states that are governed by theocrats (i.e. Iran's Guardian Council)

Dingdingding!!! Great example. How many of the people involved in the Islamic Revolution in 1979 Iran desperately wanted a theocracy? Not bloody many.

They wanted to get rid of the Shah for numerous reasons, mainly economic and some political. The Shah wasn't too tight with religion, so the easiest way to draw the Black vs. White was "Shah = antimuslim = capitalist = American lapdog" vs "Ayatollah = holy = Sharia socialism = nationalist".

Unfortunately, once the Revolution got running, the religious angle has been built up so much that it was too late to ease it back. As a result, tons of intellectuals, Marxists, secular reformers, etc. either fled the country or were beaten up by goon-squads hopped up on "kill the enemies of God" rhetoric. Same way that Iran still remains anti-US, though we haven't done much at all with them since 1988 or so: it's just too deeply engrained into their mythos.


Most of these "intifada" rioters are unemployed young Muslims that aren't treated so hot by the white French. What sounds cooler to say?

--"I'm burning cars because I can't get a job and the cute girl at the coffee shop won't go out with me because I'm Algerian."

--"The French Catholics are blasphemers and enemies of God who will be destroyed by people like me (who are holy and just and actually superior to the French)... so let's torch some cars!"


Same for white-trash skinheads in US prisons: is it cooler to say "The Zionist Occupied Government locked me up because they have to keep the superior White Man down," or just "I have no job skills and dropped out of highschool, and robbed a 7-11 to buy OxyCotin".


A lot of folks here are taking their words too literally. Lots of knees jerking on both sides.

-MV

 

[modifiedbrowning]

Here's one view from a fellow in Belgium.
http://www.downeastblog.blogspot.com/

 

[The Scandinavian]

Perhaps you're ignoring the expanding sections of several major Scandinavian cities that police will no longer enter?

What?! I'm sorry but you've been badly misinformed.

There is nothing even remotely like that sort of situation here!

 

[ArmedBear]

Maybe gangs of youths cause trouble in inner cities in the US too, and factors other than religion are at the root?

Yes. The cause is pretty clear. Generations of fatherless families, encouraged by government incentives and a dysfunctional subculture that surrounds this. Drugs help to further fund and exacerbate the problem.

How this relates to the violence that's been seen in France, the Netherlands, England, Spain, with religion as the only common thread, is something I don't see.

We have plenty of peace-loving Muslim families here, too. These obviously belong to a different group entirely, from those who are rioting in France. I am not painting all Muslims as bad. "Dogs have fur" is not the same as "anything with fur is a dog."

 

[ryoushi]

All I can say is you reap what you sow or as Lennon said "instant karma's gonna get you". I can't fell sorry or outraged.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

How this relates to the violence that's been seen in France, the Netherlands, England, Spain, with religion as the only common thread

Only common thread? How about the common thread of their being lower class unassimilated immigrants living in segregated communities?

All the Turks I've met in America are dentists, going to business school, own import/export businesses, etc. Their daughters dress like sorority girls, drink Red Bull with vodka, and listen to R&B.

What's the difference and similarity between these Turks in America and legions of dirt-poor, straight-off-the-farm, subminimum-wage young male gastarbeiter Turks in Berlin?

Oh wait, RELIGION is their common thread. That's why those gol' darn Muslims are rioting on both sides of the Atlantic.

Must be the same reason that Catholic Hispanics in Spain have protest marches about La Raza and take all the good jobs away from white Europeans... Unifying thread = religion, doncha know?

-MV

 

[ArmedBear]

their being lower class unassimilated immigrants living in segregated communities

If that were always true, then you'd have a point. Besides, so what? Must we disregard a threat just because it comes from immigrants?

Theo Van Gogh was NOT killed in a riot. 9/11 was NOT the anarchy of a poor neighborhood.

Young and male are also common threads, BTW.

 

[.41Dave]

You are all wrong when you say the Muslim youth in France have failed to integrate. They are simply following one of the grand traditions of socialism. Rioting to make the government give you stuff is pretty much the French national pastime. Seems like the Muslim youth are only trying to fit in with their native French peers.

 

[Leif Runenritzer]

And what is tribalism but the genocidal war of all against all?

Some Native Americans might disagree with you. Besides, the word of 'Allāh says to give peace a chance:

"Fight those who do not believe in 'Allāh nor the last day, and who do what is forbidden by 'Allāh and his messenger and do not acknowledge the religion of truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay tribute/the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued" -Qur'an 9:29

 

[MatthewVanitas]

If that were always true, then you'd have a point. Besides, so what? Must we disregard a threat just because it comes from immigrants?
Theo Van Gogh was NOT killed in a riot. 9/11 was NOT the anarchy of a poor neighborhood.
Young and male are also common threads, BTW.

I grant that radical Muslim issues are not completely economic/socially based, but I argue that such plays the major role. The relatively few people who have both power and money to stir up trouble, and the twisted motives to do so, need pliant masses to rally to their cause. If the masses don't rally, you're stuck paying a few random nutjobs at a time to ineptly bomb things for you.

I point out again, there are plenty of Muslims in the States who don't feel any particular call to go and fight a holy war. Most of them are pretty immune to such arguments because they feel that they're getting a fair chance in America, have good quality of life, and nobody cares whether they practice Islam or not: "Gee Uncle Karim, I appreciate your calling long-distance from Khozestan to invite me to the jihad, but I gotta drop the kids off at ballet, and then we have a PTA meeting tonight. Plus there's that big barbecue this weekend. We're pretty busy, honestly."

Going back to my skinhead parallel: I'm not saying that white kids in crappy lower-middle-class LA suburbs thought up racial struggle all by themselves. However, when they're ticked off at life and feel that they're losing out to immigrants, it just takes a few radicals with some extra beer money and some pretty political speeches to convince the kids that they're part of the "Racial Holy War" and that all there problems are the fault of the Zionist Occupied Government.


I'm not advocating that we ignore immigrant problems. I'm arguing that we should avoid playing right into the hands of radicals by drawing the lines as "Christians vs. Muslims". That just fits right into their blame-the-West worldview, and becomes a self-perpetuating belief system.

It's a chicken-and-the-egg situation, and either somebody's got to be the adult, or the whole works goes up in flames someday.

-MV

 

[Durruti]

All I can say is you reap what you sew

Does that apply to what you knit as well?

To Luguberos, who quoted the Qu'ran, yes, that's a pretty scary quote. Here's another one, the entire chapter (and therefore not taken out of context) of Al Kafirun (The Unbelievers):

Say: "O you who deny the truth! I do not worship that which you worship and neither do you worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which you worship have [ever] worshipped, and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship. Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine!" 109th Surah

Pretty radical stuff, huh?

My point is not that this proves that Islam is a peaceful religion. My point is that Islam functions like any other religion: there's plenty of room for interpretation and people will look for the parts that suit them and leave the rest.

I think we'd all agree that Buddhism is a peaceful religion, but you'd never know that to look at the Buddhist government of Sri Lanka, for example.

Like MatthewVanitas said earlier, people who do things like the article mentions generally like to frame their motivations in lofty terms and you don't get much loftier than religion. That doesn't mean that religion is their actual motivation.

I think a good parallel can be drawn to the '92 LA riots. Everyone involved in the unrest claimed that it was built up anger at the injustice wrought by the system under which they lived. While that was certainly part of it, how many people just saw a good opportunity to save money on that month's shopping?

 

[Manedwolf]

Europe is going to learn the hard way that tolerating intolerance accomplishes nothing but self-destruction.

Hardline Muslim extremism IS intolerance. And those who tolerate it do so at their own peril, as their misguided ideas of "diversity" merely hold the door open for an axe murderer to come in, so to speak.

My idea for dealing with these bold, violent gang sorts without repercussions from Amnesty, etc? The police there can easily see them, they just aren't doing anything drastic. So equip police snipers with .308s with a scope camera and transmitter. Let them pan around to zoom in on Muslim gang sorts. They get one in their scope that's blatantly and obviously throwing molotovs, for example, authorities watching elsewhere get to give them a green light or red light in their scope. They get a green light, they pull the trigger. Pan to next target. Clean out the violent ones, one swift headshot at a time, neighborhood to neighborhood.

It'd be hobbling them a bit, but the video would be there, and there'd be no "sensitivity" cry that the guy they shot was a harmless good Muslim boy.

 

[longeyes]

Perhaps you're ignoring the expanding sections of several major Scandinavian cities that police will no longer enter?

What?! I'm sorry but you've been badly misinformed.

There is nothing even remotely like that sort of situation here!

Well, my friend, that is not what I've been reading.

 

[ArmedBear]

I point out again, there are plenty of Muslims in the States who don't feel any particular call to go and fight a holy war.

No kidding. There are more of them here than most other places, and I grew up with a lot of them. I'm perfectly aware of that. Lots of people of German descent fought for the US in WW II, also. That had nothing to do with identifying Germany as a threat at the time, and it has nothing to do with identifying a threat today.

 

[ryoushi]

I point out again, there are plenty of Muslims in the States who don't feel any particular call to go and fight a holy war. Most of them are pretty immune to such arguments because they feel that they're getting a fair chance in America, have good quality of life, and nobody cares whether they practice Islam or not: "Gee Uncle Karim, I appreciate your calling long-distance from Khozestan to invite me to the jihad, but I gotta drop the kids off at ballet, and then we have a PTA meeting tonight. Plus there's that big barbecue this weekend. We're pretty busy, honestly."

"And besides uncle, if we tried that jihadi crap my in my town, We'd be arrested if we were lucky enough to be apprehended by the authorities instead of my neighbors. Our houses and mosques would be burned and our children mercilessly beaten at school. There are as yet so reletively few of us in America uncle, and we stick out like a sore thumb. Everybody knows where we live and where we worship. We'd be sitting ducks!"

 

[goosegunner]

Well, my friend, that is not what I've been reading.

Source?

 

[MatthewVanitas]

"And besides uncle, if we tried that jihadi crap my in my town, We'd be arrested if we were lucky enough to be apprehended by the authorities instead of my neighbors. Our houses and mosques would be burned and our children mercilessly beaten at school. There are as yet so reletively few of us in America uncle, and we stick out like a sore thumb. Everybody knows where we live and where we worship. We'd be sitting ducks!"

Totally ridiculous.

Despite all this brave talk about America ambition, we are (currently) a nation of bureaucratic and apathetic people.

How many major lynchings has America had since the 1960s? Just about none. Setting aside the Deep South, how many major lynchings have there been since the 1930s?

Today, tons of people know exactly who the convicted child molestors are in their area. Thousands and thousands over the whole U.S. How many ex-con molestors have been murdered or burned out? How many 100+ person mobs have turned out with torches to drive them away? Call it law-abiding or call it lazy, but Americans just don't do that in any large numbers.

Even if some guys waltzed out of the mosque down the street and bombed the shopping mall, I seriously doubt that any mass of people would rise up to attack that mosque. Couple White Power knuckleheads might toss a molotov cocktail. Couple folks might hold picket signs for an afternoon, or write snarky editorials to the paper demanding the gov't "do something", but I'll bet cash that you wouldn't see the outraged masses come together to destroy the mosque.

There are as yet so reletively few of us in America uncle, and we stick out like a sore thumb. Everybody knows where we live and where we worship.

Ridiculous again. Americans have an uncanny ability to mistake Iranians for Hispanics, Tajiks for Italians, Muslim Filipinos for Chinese Buddhists, etc.

About the only people that most Americans can agree "look like Muslims" are turban-wearing Sikhs, who have nothing to do with Muslims.

This whole "I know a Muslim when I see one" shtick gets old fast. I'm getting my Masters Degree in Middle Eastern Studies, did two tours in Iraq, and have backpacked around the Middle East, and I _still_ wouldn't put money down on picking American Muslims on sight.

Two buddies of mine were reported as "Arab males behaving suspiciously" at a local Starbucks, and of course it turned out that one was a Jewish Israeli, and the other an Orthodox Christian Assyrian. Neither one was Arab or Muslim. Unless you've got some super Muslamo-Vision powers you care to share with the rest of us, I'm calling bollocks on that one.


-MV

 

[ryoushi]

Quote:
Well, my friend, that is not what I've been reading.[/QUOTE]

Source?

Dhimmi Watch
Now in Malmo, Sweden, a city where a quarter of the population is Muslim, there are some parts of the city where buses refuse to go for fear of safety. Fireman, policemen, and ambulance drivers have been attacked in certain sections when trying to do their job. Swedes, though, are not an easy soundbite, perhaps because they are so thoughtful. They try to see things from every side. We went out with a policeman on patrol and spoke to him while he was walking around in the dangerous part of town. At one point I stopped him and said, "How does it feel to you, personally, when you come here trying to do your job, trying to help someone, and people throw rocks at you?" His response was that it was "a little annoying." Annoying. I imagined what kind of a colorful response I could have gotten from a New York policeman.

 

[Cosmoline]

The Muslim immigrants in the US tend to come from a wide array of cultural backgrounds from the Gulf states to SE Asia. Many Muslim communities have been here for generations. In France they're almost all from sections of N. Africa that used to be under French rule and they immigrated since WWII. They have an old and troubled relationship with France. Indeed the first modern Islamic campaign of terrorism was waged against France to get them out of Africa. In other European nations the North Africans, Turks and others were brought in as a cheap source of labor. No plans were made to naturalize them or incorporate them into the culture of their host nation. Indeed most European nations are still wedded to a racial identity of nationality. A French citizen with African roots will always be an etranger. And you can't really be German unless you're racially German. So much of the blame for the current disconnect between the Muslims and the Europeans lies at the feet of the Europeans.

 

[ryoushi]

My wife works at a school in a Muslim neighborhood there is a large mosque nearby and many of the students in the school are Muslim. The school lunch menu has been tailored so as to accomodate the Muslim students. Everybody gets along pretty good but I guarantee you in my town, if angry young men started roaming the streets en masse burning our cars in the name of Allah or anyone else there would be immediate hell to pay.

 

[c_yeager]

Maybe gangs of youths cause trouble in inner cities in the US too, and factors other than religion are at the root?

Yeah, but looking at it that way would totally screw up our Christian elitism. Stop it, these kids are clearly violent *because* they are muslims, and therfore inferior. Just like how American gangs are violent because they are inferior blacks. We noble white Christians must take these poor misguided souls under our wings and make them more Christian and more white, for their own good.



Funny how nearly every statement about Europe in this thread has been soundly refuted by people who actually live there. Makes you wonder just how much BS and propaganda surrounds this whole argument.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Everybody gets along pretty good but I guarantee you in my town, if angry young men started roaming the streets en masse burning our cars in the name of Allah or anyone else there would be immediate hell to pay.

You know your town better than I, but honestly ask yourself: if teenage Muslim males started buring cars, is the following scenario more likely than "the noble villagers rise as one to destroy the monster" ?


1) The law-abiding members of the town cram all their cars in their garages and hole up in their houses with fire extinguishers and cellphones ready. Those who own guns keep them loaded and at hand.

2) Maybe, just maybe, a handful of hooligans, ne'er-do-wells, local disaffected youths, etc., led by a small handful of well-educated "right wing intellectuals" might make a move on the mosque. Might shoot a few teenagers along their way, but will most likely fall apart after taking even a handful of casualties. IF they make it to the mosque unopposed, they might pour some gasoline and then rabbit. That's assuming they don't meet any cops, at which point they'd all bolt like bunnies, maybe throw an MGD bottle or two.



Realistic scenario in the incredibly unlikely event that masses of young Muslims riot in CA suburbs? That's pretty much what happened in the LA riots, yes? I don't recall the White Aryan Resistance taking to the streets in '92 to face the "mud race menace". Nor do I recall noble citizen militias, led by officers of the Greatest Generation, forming platoons and marching into Compton to restore order.

-MV