Is gun ownership becoming a luxury?

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Think back 100 years. Homes were tiny. New stuff was rare.

Compare your standard of living, life expectancy, medical care, and stuff versus ancestors. Our 'necessities' like cable, new cars, new phones, season tickets, international trips, etc were uncommon or unheard of back then... we have so much...

Take an honest assessment ... we've all got it better than the average person of prior generations,

My point is like RWDale's. Yes my grandparents had it worse (born in the 1900s/1910s) and my parents had it worse (born in the 1930s/1940s). However, both generations after growing to adulthood and beyond were relatively flush with wealth. Both of their generations were the ones where a person with above average income meant owning vacation homes. Something probably only the rich had before them.

The standards got raised as well as expectations. Meeting those raised standards is harder and harder to do for the average income in the 21st century. And life expectancy and medical care go hand in hand. I hope I never get a disease which bankrupts my family just to delay my death. I've seen that first hand with my brother's family.

This graphic posted by CoalTrain49 below is my income reality of my last 12 years. It is the same for people I know around me. That chart doesn't even show how costs of everything else have gone up.

View attachment 699931

It is interesting that it does coincide with internet buying. Things became cheaper to purchase, but the sellers have to pay their employees less to still make a fair profit. 10+ years ago, the company I work for could sell products with at least a 30% markup. Now we are lucky to get 10% if we get the sale, due to internet pricing/competition. Volume does not make up the difference for the small businesses out there. So, salaries are cut or people are let go to hire "part time" employees that get no benefits. That goes for the bigger companies as well.

It is also clear that having electronic connectivity with the world is highly expensive, but how else is a modern working man supposed to keep connected to his job and his customers? I'd love to ditch cable TV at home, but I truly need the internet, a laptop, and a smart phone for work.

Back to firearms, though. Personally, I've hit my peak of purchasing them and have cut back my shooting for the time being. I've got more than I need and am blessed to have what I have. :)
 
Yeah, those "boomers" had it easy.

They lived through the constant daily stress/threat of Communism and imminent nuclear war for decades. Worked in dangerous manual labor jobs, when safety standards were very low, often exposed to hazards and hazardous substances that most members here would not be willing to do. And, a lot of those folks who relied on their pensions lost out when companies folded or defaulted on those pensions.

I'm willing to bet the average person on this forum has more $ wrapped up in toys and junk than our grandfathers did. Look around your home and see all the surplus stuff you have that grandpa didn't need, want, or have access to. He was fine fixing the lawn mower for many generations, yet we buy a new one rather than change the oil! (sarcasm, but you get the point).

The only traveling grandpa did was when he was drafted to fight in Korea or Vietnam. Many WWII vets had never even been to D.C. to see their monument! Willing to bet most members here have been on at least one, perhaps multiple international vacations, and/or seen most of the United States. Grandpa probably never experienced or spent money on skydiving, SCUBA diving, jet skies, snow skiing trips, expensive golf clubs, Rolex watches, foreign sports cars, Vegas gambling trips, nor did he have a movie collection with 10,000 titles, etc. Most meals were home-cooked, and rarely did they eat out (which is much more expensive, perhaps twice as expensive). Today we don't blink at spending $5 on a coffee, $10 on a cocktail, and $100 on a meal for two, or $50 for two movie tickets and popcorn. And 3,000 calorie/day diets are not uncommon today but would have been unheard of for grandma and grandpa. How many people today don't blink at spending $30,000 on a single wedding? I doubt our grandparents poured money down the sink like that!

While it may appear that boomers had it easy, or were flush with money, I don't think that's the case. They were thrifty and saved every penny. Ever notice how grandparents had the same car, furniture, carpet, phone, TV, lawn mower, tools, etc. for decades? How many new TVs, couches, cars, motorcycles, cameras, phones, etc. have you had in the last 10 years?

I know people who have had insurance pay for medical treatments of well over $200,000. This is treatment that didn't exist a few decades ago, and I'm not even sure that medical insurance would have covered such treatments a few decades ago. Consider prosthetic limbs - science fiction means reality. If grandpa lost a leg, he was doomed to a wheelchair. If you lose a leg, if you have insurance, you'll be walking in a year.

Sit down and look at your monthly bills. I'm willing to bet you spend hundreds, perhaps thousands every year on garbage you don't need. If you merely trim $1,000 per year in cutting bills, it adds up very quickly.

For instance, I had unnecessary cable TV ($70/month) and unnecessary data plan on my cell phone ($50/month). I replaced the cable with Roku and Netflix for $8/month. Simply by dropping those two items, I'm saving around $1400 per year, that was otherwise being totally wasted. That was a simple change. You can see that in a decade, that simple change will save the cost of a nice used car. I know people (non-business use) who have $200-$300 monthly phone/cable/internet bills!!!! That's up to $4,000 annually just for connectivity. That is insane!

Let's get this conversation back on OP. Guns and ammo and shooting.
In nearly every category we have it much better than folks in the last 200 years.

As for guns, I bet most members here own 20 guns, and 10,000 rounds of ammo on average. We're more educated, have access to much better training and shooting methods, excellent shooting schools available for little cost. We have ballistic materials/vests available for self defense. The average quality of a handgun is much greater than in the past, and they will last much longer than most guns of yesteryear. We can carry concealed nearly everywhere (something that was not common in the past). We have won huge court victories preserving our rights. Most folks here shoot more than folks in the past. You can order nearly any part for any gun and research it in mere minutes or hours thanks to the internet. Quality and types of ammunition are much better today than previously.

Consider the advances in the quality and design of guns and ammo. Why did most police forces carry the .357 revolver? Reliable stopping power, because no semi-auto apparently could fill the role. But today, there are many choices in reliable semi-autos with ample stopping power, due to design and ballistic improvements.

Sure, we have sacrificed hand polished and fitted parts that were common in prior generations. But the selection of guns has never been better, and you can still get custom guns at a premium, probably not much more than they cost at the time, adjusted for inflation. Sure, some cool surplus guns have become scarce, but they are still obtainable.

I'm not immune to the fact that it is an expensive world. Seems every time I leave the house, there's some $100, $500, or $1000 bill awaiting me. Can't leave the grocery store without spending $100. Can't leave the veterinarian without spending $500. Or the auto repair shop. Parking tickets cost what my daily salary was 10 years ago. Last minute airfare in the CONUS is always reaching $800-$1000.

I recall being annoyed with former bosses who hit their college educations at the exact right moment when they were a relative novelty and still quite affordable in the 1970s and 1980s. Now, college educations are expected, and the prices are staggering. And having two degrees, I can appreciate how hard it is to assume those costs and still stay afloat after college.

Back to guns again. If we are totally honest, for the non-collector - just the average middle class hunter and/or person interested in self defense and carrying a gun, here's the breakdown.

Average rifle and scope: $800-1000. Ammo for the year: $100
Average shotgun, ammo, and annual proficiency training: $500 + training money of $500 annually
Average handgun, ammo, and annual training budget: $500 handgun, + $1000/year for accessories, training, ammo.

You can see that for the average person, earning say $100-200 per day, these costs are extraordinarily low and equate to about 1 weeks salary (per category) for the equipment and yearly training. I'd call that a bargain.

Folks here, on an internet forum, using computers/Iphones, internet, etc. - most don't have the first clue about poverty. Another member stated he grew up in total poverty, and I can attest to that as well. Grew up in the 70s and 80s in total poverty, in a rundown old house that needed tens of thousands of dollars in basic renovation/upkeep that my single parent simply could not manage on her $5,000-$10,000 annual income. House had moss growing on the ancient roof, broken down chimney, 30 year old flaking paint, a near useless wooden door, busted windows on the house, and nearly zero insulation. Furnace was ancient and probably worked less often than not, and the pilot was always going out due to the drafty basement. Temp in that house was always in the high 50s or low 60s in the winter. The home, inside and out, was an embarrassment so we rarely had company. Drafty old home, with no 2nd floor heat vents, so we kids were very cold in those mid-western winters. For us, a working car was a miracle. I think back to heading off to college. My most valuable possession was probably the clothes on my back. I had nothing. No money. No valuables. No inheritance. Zero. I worked since I was 15 and saved as much as I could. Without loans, scholarships, and grant money, there's no way I could have gone to college. Now that is poverty. No way could my family have afforded an extra dime for guns in the 1980s. Oh, and in the 1980s, the interest rate on a home loan was in the mid-teens!!!! It wasn't this cush 4% that we have now. If you borrowed money for a home, you were paying credit-card type interest rates.
 
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Yeah, those "boomers" had it easy.

Just lettin' you know that I'm not picking on the Boomers or anyone that have done well, leadcounsel. My particular post is what I have seen first hand and I am thankful for my grandparents having vacation homes on lakes. It made my childhood much richer.

I may be unique (I don't think so though), but I repair things until they almost rust back into the earth. Our newest car (Honda Civic) was bought second hand 2 years ago and is a 2008 model. Since I still work with my hands for a living, I could lop off a digit or electrocute myself at work if I don't watch myself. I have plenty of scars from stuff like that.

I will admit to buying 25% more house than I need. It's hard to overcome the wife's will all the time. She is the reason we still have cable TV. Arrrgh. :D

But times are tight for us. Her last unmarried sister is being married in New York next month. We don't take real vacations, but do usually go to the beach for a weekend each summer. This year the beach money is spent on sending my wife without us to be in her sister's wedding. We are glad for her to be able to do that.

As for guns, I bet most members here own 20 guns, and 10,000 rounds of ammo on average.

Yep. That seems to be the number I have bounced above or below for the last decade. Of course, I started buying in 1992 but I didn't double what I had until the current president came to office. Honestly, I'd probably have 1/2 to 3/4 of what I have if it wasn't due to fears of having gun rights taken away.

Average rifle and scope: $800-1000. Ammo for the year: $100
Average shotgun, ammo, and annual proficiency training: $500 + training money of $500 annually
Average handgun, ammo, and annual training budget: $500 handgun, + $1000/year for accessories, training, ammo.

You can see that for the average person, earning say $100-200 per day, these costs are extraordinarily low and equate to about 1 weeks salary (per category) for the equipment and yearly training. I'd call that a bargain.

You are right on that and it was much easier for me to handle before I had kids and step-kids. Four in total. All money suckers!!!! LOL!!! :D
 
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Oh, and in the 1980s, the interest rate on a home loan was in the mid-teens!!!! It wasn't this cush 4% that we have now. If you borrowed money for a home, you were paying credit-card type interest rates.

My first mortgage in 1983 had 13% interest but was for only $29,000.00, all of my first guns cost me less than $200. NIB Ruger Blackhawk $190.00, used 16gauge Fulton SXS $175.00 IIRC I was make $12.00 + an hour in a factory.

By the time I started buying guns (1978) the good deals on the real Classics were gone but there were still good stuff to buy and gun shows were fun.

All through the 80's and 90's (even while raising 3 kids) I dabbled with SXS shotguns, (I could still buy a SXS for a couple of hundred bucks) but something changed in the late 90's I don't know if it was inflation or the internet but the local used gun prices started climbing and never leveled off. Our income is as high as it's ever been yet it doesn't go nowhere near as far as it did in the 90's and those old doubles that I'd pay $200.00 for now fetch $600. or better.
 
Posted by Huntsman: My first mortgage in 1983 had 13% interest but was for only $29,000.00, all of my first guns cost me less than $200.

At 13% interest on a $29K loan, the total at 30 years is $29000.00 principle + $113,099.99 (interest) = $142,099.99 total. http://www.webmath.com/_answer.php

At 4% interest, that means you could buy at $65,000 home (twice as expensive in 1983) at 4% interest for roughly the same cost after 30 years. Granted, it does seem that home prices have climbed faster, but that's likely due to supply and demand and also inflation. And those are constants. If you adjust for inflation, that same h$29K house then would be exactly $69,000 in 2014 adjusted for inflation. If you adjust the lower interest rate purchasing power, then instead of a $65,000 home, you're looking at the same purchasing power of $164,000 of 2014. In other words, today, adjusted for inflation, your purchasing power with a 4% interest rate is $164,000 (as compared to exactly your purchasing power in 1983 with 13% interest on a 30 year loan). That's a pretty nice house in most communities.

High interest rate, low demand for houses and mortgage. Low demand = high supply = low prices. Had the interest in 1983 been much lower, housing prices likely would have been not so soft.

The reverse is true. Low current interest rates makes house prices higher because of higher demand and less supply.

As for guns, NIB guns today (garden variety) Rugers, Smiths, Remingtons, etc. are all in the $400-$600 range, or 2-3 times what they were 30 years ago according to your experience. Given that inflation factored in, they are around the same price as they were 30 years ago. $200 in '83 is $475 in 2014, adjusted for inflation. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's not anything much to complain about, considering the rises in all consumer goods like fuel, milk, wheat, gold, silver, etc.

So, in summary, in my view, we have extraordinarily low interest rates on homes, cars, loans, etc. making our dollars stretch further on these purchases. Did your parents ever get a 0% loan on a car in the 1950s? Doubt it. Gun prices have either stayed the same, or declined, over the last 50 to 100 years as compared to income, relative to inflation and the consumer price index. If you're smart, you can stretch a dollar further today, and have much more buying power, than our grandparents. You just have to not buy junk, and shop/spend/save smartly.
 
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I'm confused. In this thread you say:

The reverse is true. Low current interest rates makes house prices higher because of higher demand and less supply.

And in this thread, you say:
Houses are dirt cheap today

Make up your mind.

Back to the original thread, gun ownership has always been a bit of luxury and it sure seems like people these days sure own a lot more guns than they did in the last generation. Gun racks that held 3-4 guns and cabinets that held 8-10 were more than enough for most families.
 
@ Jorg - you've taken what I've said purposefully out of context. One would have to purposefully TRY to be confused by such a simple concept.

I also went on to say that the overall price of ownership, factoring interest rates, foreclosure properties, etc. is what makes them so affordable today. You have to shop around, have a good job and good credit. I'm sitting in a home that I bought in 2011, foreclosed at 40% market depreciation. I purchased immediate equity, at under 4% interest, and am sitting on significant equity. I'm basically being paid to live in and own this home.

Yes, let's get this back on topic.
 
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