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Is it necessary to flare a 1911's ejection port for reliability?

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by hnm201, Nov 23, 2004.

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  1. hnm201

    hnm201 Member

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    It seems like the first cut that everyone makes on their GI milspec 1911s is the good ol flare o' the ejection port. Is this really necessary for 100% reliablity?

    My springer non-GI "milspec" (now in someone else's safe) came with a stock flared ejection port, yet the brass practically dribbled out of it until I reshaped and tensioned the extractor per Tuner's instructions. Also, all of the brass ejected from this gun dinked off the slide just behind the flared ejection port and spun off it like a spring board. When I asked both of the local gunsmiths about it, the collective answer was "no one knows why 1911s do that." Heck, and one of these guys is as old as John Moses Browning himself!

    btw: I watched a guy shoot his brand new para-ordnance LTC (the one with the mongo-extractor) at the range yesterday morning. Sometimes the brass flew up. Sometimes it flew sideways. Somes it just kind a rolled out. Sometimes it spun in air and sometimes it sailed like dead weight. He didn't have any stoppages, but I swear, rarely did two ejected cases' trajectories look the same!

    I am asking because I am thinking of buying a springer GI milspec locally. Assuming that it functions reliably with remington JHPS and Golden Sabers, I am planning on carrying it. I don't want to modify the gun. If a flared ejection port really adds that much to reliability then I'll just wait two months and buy a Colt NRM. However, the aesthetics of the GI milspec and the feel of its short GI trigger appeal and the pracitcality of its parkerized finish appeal to me more. I could just get another non-GI springer milspec but I've already done that once and had a bad experience. Sights fell off. Grips screw bushings stripped out. I just don't want to deal with the headaches of sending a gun back to the factory.
     
  2. stans

    stans Member

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    Lowering and flaring the port does little or nothing for reliability, it just puts fewer dings and dents in the brass for the reloader.
     
  3. Dave Sample

    Dave Sample member

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    "Lowering the port is a good thing" as Martha would say. It is a reliabilty issue with me. The "Roll Over Notch" (Coltspeak) is not. It started on the Gold Cups as a wadcutter feature so the brass would clear easier with the light weight recoil spring that came with the guns in those days. I think the look neat and have done them on all of the guns I built beciuase I like the look. I thought the Colt touch was pretty ugly so I do it my way. It tends to leave fewer marks on the empty brass, too.

    35071614.gif

    A little less on Eagle 2

    48320506.gif

    It is just a matter of taste really.
     
  4. hnm201

    hnm201 Member

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    I certainly agree that a flared ejection port looks neat when accompanied by other modern accoutrements: novaks, upswept tail grip safety, forward slide serrations, carbon fiber grips, etc. However, I drive a 20yr old volvo with a little rust around the edges and I am wearing a hairy irish sweater that is almost as old. Aesthetically, ugly works for me. In fact, some would argue that I cultivate it. So, if I can't convince myself that I need the flared port to keep the gun running, dented brass be-damned, then it's GI flavor for me.

    Oh..those are very nice pics Dave. Thanks!
     
  5. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Most of the playing with ejection ports is done by folks who don't know how, or don't want to bother, to get the ejector and extractor right so the brass goes where it should go.

    Jim
     
  6. mete

    mete Member

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    If you get a light load it might help since the case rotates to the 3 o'clock position and hits the slide and must have enough energy to go up and over the port . In a properly designed gun like the P7 the extractor centers on the ejection port and the ejector is opposite the extractor.The case never touches the slide .
     
  7. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Jim as usual, is right. The model 1911 design evolved over a number of years. Many experimental models were built, then tested and then changed based on the results of the previous trials. By 1911 the extractor/ejector issues were resolved and cartridges cases managed to make it out through the standard port.

    If you have a pistol that has brass smears on the lower side of the ejection port, and both the extractor and ejector are correctly set up, it could be advisable to slightly lower the port. However this needn't be done until there is evidence of a problem. To many modifications are made simply for the purpose of making them.
     
  8. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Git'r'Done

    Jim Keenan said:

    Most of the playing with ejection ports is done by folks who don't know how, or don't want to bother, to get the ejector and extractor right so the brass goes where it should go.
    _____________________

    Yep...And many don't realize..or believe, for that matter...that the extractor
    can be tweaked to change the timing and direction of the release.

    Cheers!
     
  9. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    Extractor

    Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
    Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
    This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    Extractor

    Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
    Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
    This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!
     
  11. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    Extractor

    Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
    Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
    This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!
     
  12. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    Extractor

    Tuner, when you have time and feel in the mode to write some more of your good information on 1911's, please do a sticky on tuning the extractor to direct brass where you want it to go.
    Also,please tell if you start with the ejector or the extractor. How do you decide which to tune first?
    This is one area I see many opinions on and not many agree where to start.

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!!!!!!!
     
  13. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    How?

    Whew! Big order, Ken...It'd take a lotta bandwidth to explain everything,
    and the tweaker is probably still lookin' at some trial and error, since no two guns are alike. It'd be easier to troubleshoot the ejection pattern and go from there.

    Might be easier to start with a fresh extractor and arrange a demonstration
    by doin' one thing at a time to the extractor and observing what the effect is...and progress to ruinin' the extractor by makin' it do things with the brass that it's not supposed to do.

    The ejector is also a player in the game. Depends on how high or low it contacts the case...How far to port or how close to center...Angle...All of it.

    Finally...There are no guarantees that I can take a given extractor/ejector/gun combination and put the brass exactly where I want it on the ground. Too many variables to work with...but I can get it out of the port at 2 O'Clock like it should be...and I don't need to lower the port or flare the front or cut a rollover notch at the back to do it. If I do lower a port,
    it's not much...maybe on the order of .015 inch or so...and that's mainly just a little edge in gettin' the brass to clear the port. If I flare the front, it's just for live-round ejection in pistols with reduced slide travel and extended ejectors, like the Commanders and Officer's Models. I do place a good bit of importance on reliable live-round ejection in a serious gun or one that has an extended ejector that can make contact with a primer and set it off during the ejection process. It can happen, and did on a few of the older Commanders that had the pointy ejectors. I won't go into detail on my own experience...but I will say that it caused me a few very long, dragged out
    seconds while I tried to determine whether or not the pain in my left hand
    was due to the fact that I had somehow shot myself while doing a live round
    hand-over-port ejection. The longest few seconds were spent trying to force myself to look at my hand... :eek:

    Come on back up and we'll have a go at it.
     
  14. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    ejection

    My Nornco Compact is ejecting O.K.,really slinging the cases out.
    A lot of the cases have a dent about 2/3 of the way up the brass and the dent runs across the case. Guess the slide is hiting it at some time.
    Do you have a suggestion on how to cure this?
    Also, a friend has a new Springfield WW2 repo that is doing the same thing and he wants to try and cure it. It works O.K.,but dents the brass
     
  15. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Dents

    Howdy Ken,

    Yep..Sounds like slide contact. Which way are they goin'? Forward? Backward? Straight out to the side? You should be able to see brass marks on the slide right at the edge of the port somewhere.
     
  16. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    ejection

    Mostly to the right rear with a few to the front
     
  17. ACORN

    ACORN Member

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    Ken after you get your Mil Spec tuned you might want to get your computer looked at. Looks like it went full-auto and fired a 4 shot burst. :neener:
     
  18. 45auto

    45auto Member

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    I have two Colts, one flared, the other not!. Both eject cases the same with no denting.

    They are lowered(factory) and have extended ejectors, replaced the standard, and the empties stopped hitting me in the head...I'm dumb enough without additional smacks to the head. ;)
     
  19. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Ejection Direction

    Ken say:

    Mostly to the right rear with a few to the front

    Tuner ask:

    Are they comin' out the port at 1, 2, or 3 O'Clock? Any brass marks around the port? Early release usually gets booted backward by the slide in recoil.
    Late release boots it forward, and the cases usually spin like a whirly-bird.
    Generally happens when the cases eject straight out at 3 O'Clock.

    Standin' by...
     
  20. ken grant

    ken grant Member

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    extractor

    Early release? Late release? How do you change the release timing on an extractor? :confused:
     
  21. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Please Release Me...Let Me Go

    Ken asks, incensed:

    Early release? Late release? How do you change the release timing on an extractor?
    __________________

    Ejector length is one way...Long ejector=early release. Extractor tension
    is another way. Heavy tension=later release. Extractor hook length is one more. Long hook=late release. Short hook=earlier release. Stepping up or down on the recoil spring rate can affect it too. Generally, a too-early release with backward riccochet is helped by a slightly heavier recoil spring to
    slow the slide and give the brass a little more time to get clear of the port.
    Late release with forward riccochet is helped by a ligher spring to keep the slide to the rear a heartbeat longer.

    I'm thinkin' that you might have early release. I reduced your hook length to about cut the middle of tolerance...about .033-.-34 if I remember correctly.
    Also IIRC, when we test-fired it, the brass was exiting at 2 O'Clock, so the ejector shape is probaby okay. You can try shortening the ejector just a bit...maybe .010 inch...and make a lot of difference. You'll have to study it for a few minutes, and retain the angle that's on it. Careful now...Don't get carried away. Cover the magwell with a cloth to keep the filings out, and
    do trial and error. If ya go too short, the ejection will be erratic.

    Just FWIW...The light dents won't hurt anything for reloading the brass. As long as the gun is kickin' the brass well clear of the port and not beanin' ya between the eyes...do ya really wanna dink with it? When you come back this way, we can make time to go to the range and fine-tune it. We just didn't have time before. I was mainly interested in gettin' the FTE cured.

    Uh...Wanna sell that Nork? :D I kinda liked it... :cool:
     
  22. sm

    sm member

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    Yeah what Tuner, Mr. Keenan, Old Fuff....said.

    Ran too many rds through various slabsides without the lowered and flared ports with NO problems.

    Can't prove it , but I think the character marks* makes these slabsides more dependable.

    * scratches , worn bluing, ...etc.
     
  23. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Ejection

    sm said:

    Ran too many rds through various slabsides without the lowered and flared ports with NO problems.
    _____________________

    Yep...Neither JMB, Colt's engineers, nor the Ordnance Department were worried about reloadin' the brass when they designed the guns. I'm of the old school of thought on ejection. As long as it clears the port in time to feed the next round, and I don't get whacked between the eyes or get hot brass down the back of my shirt...I don't give a rip if it all goes in a 5-gallon bucket 6 feet from the gun or into the next county. :D
     
  24. Dave Sample

    Dave Sample member

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    I agree with Tuner and O.F. I just do all these things for fun and they have nothing to do with the 1911 putting all the empties in a three foot circle off of my right shoulder. That is just pure dumb luck!
     
  25. Dave Sample

    Dave Sample member

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    74416413.gif

    Pure

    74416395.gif

    Dumb

    74415902.gif

    Luck

    74415885.gif
     
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