Is it possible to full time in an RV with NFA?

[Zerodefect]

If your RV is a permanent Residence, can you travel with NFA? Silencers, SBR's, etc.

 

[Frank Ettin]

If your RV is a permanent Residence, can you travel with NFA? Silencers, SBR's, etc.

Short answer is that the RV can't be considered a permanent State of residence. Your State of residence will be wherever the RV is parked with the intention to remain (at least for a period of time).

 

[CoRoMo]

You can already travel with NFA items anyway. It doesn't matter if your permanent residence is a house, apartment, condo, hotel room, etc.

 

[dogtown tom]

Zerodefect If your RV is a permanent Residence, can you travel with NFA? Silencers, SBR's, etc.

You'll still need to file a Form 5320.20 for each state you plan to visit.
Sliencers and AOW's do not require a 5320.20

CoRoMo You can already travel with NFA items anyway. It doesn't matter if your permanent residence is a house, apartment, condo, hotel room, etc.

Not exactly.
Traveling with a machine gun, DD, SBR or SBS requires an approved 5320.20
In addition, you must comply with state laws where you will be traveling.

 

[CoRoMo]

Right.

But he didn't say anything about crossing state lines.

Traveling with a machine gun, DD, SBR or SBS requires an approved 5320.20

Not exactly. Form 20 is only REQUIRED when crossing state lines.

 

[Zerodefect]

Cool. So we just need to file the form 20 for each state we visit. Thanks.

 

[CoRoMo]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=565505

 

[HRnightmare]

Cool. So we just need to file the form 20 for each state we visit. Thanks.

I'm not sure that is going to be an easy task unless you have a very strict gameplan and stick to it. The form requires you to enter dates, locations and reasons.

I have heard that some people who live near another state that they visit often or use a range at sends in a blanket form every year with daes covering the whole year.

My 5320.20 I completed for my SBR's when I moved (15 miles down the road) took about 2 months for it to be signed and returned. So it is not an instant process either.

 

[tepin]

Some NFA items are illegal in some states too so be sure to check. Eg suppressors in MN are verboten.

 

[Hypnogator]

Yeah, been there, done that!

Short answer is that the RV can't be considered a permanent State of residence. Your State of residence will be wherever the RV is parked with the intention to remain (at least for a period of time).

Ran into that when I attempted to register my motorhome in my home state of Texas.

DMV: What's your Address?

Me: (Give them mailing address). They look it up -- it's a Mailboxes, Etc.

DMV: That's a commercial address. You don't live there.

Me: No, I live in my RV. That's my mailing address.

DMV: Where is your RV Parked?

Me: In your parking lot.

DMV: You can't live in our parking lot.

Me: No, I live in my RV and get my mail at my mailing address.

(This went round and round about three times, 'till finally):

DMV: Where was your RV parked last night.

Me: Hickory Creek Campground, #35.

And that, folks, is how I'm even now a resident of an RV park that was closed a decade ago.

 

[joem1945]

If it was me I wouldn't take any chances on traveling out of state. Too easy to run into a officer with a anti gun agenda or one that is not quite up on NFA weapons laws.

 

[Sav .250]

A lot of states have caveats relating to weapons and related items. Day`s of ," I didn`t know" are long gone.

 

[rodregier]

DMV and BATFE don't deal well with mobile residents :-(

No doubt due to their enabling legislation not dealing well with those circumstances either.

Since mobile residents are not a major voting block, I doubt the underlying issues will be dealt with any time soon.

 

[md2lgyk]

Short answer is that the RV can't be considered a permanent State of residence. Your State of residence will be wherever the RV is parked with the intention to remain (at least for a period of time).

Well, not exactly. There are a few states (specifically South Dakota) that allow full-time RVers to register their vehicles there without having an actual address in the State. Ergo, for all intents and purposes they are legally SD residents no matter where they happen to be staying. They can get SD driver's licenses and, I believe, even vote there.

 

[dogtown tom]

md2lgyk

Quote:
Short answer is that the RV can't be considered a permanent State of residence. Your State of residence will be wherever the RV is parked with the intention to remain (at least for a period of time).

Well, not exactly.

Well YES, exactly.

There are a few states (specifically South Dakota) that allow full-time RVers to register their vehicles there without having an actual address in the State. Ergo, for all intents and purposes they are legally SD residents no matter where they happen to be staying. They can get SD driver's licenses and, I believe, even vote there.

Which has nothing to do with your state of residence for the purposes of buying a firearm. In order for you to claim a "state of residency" you must actually intend to make your home in that state.

"Full time RVers" will find it difficult, if not impossible, to buy a firearm in any state. This is because they will usually be unable to provide government issued alternate documentation showing their name and a residence address.

https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf

 

[CoalTrain49]

"Full time RVers" will find it difficult, if not impossible, to buy a firearm in any state. This is because they will usually be unable to provide government issued alternate documentation showing their name and a residence address.

Not exactly.

Most full time RV'ers have found a way to do that and not own property or reside in any state for any length of time. I've talked to dozens of full timers. I'm not a full timer but I spend a lot of time on the road.

NICS says this.
Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.

Obviously a dealer isn't going to ask you for tax records because people who rent or lease don't pay property tax and some states don't have an income tax. My state doesn't. Mostly they are looking for a DL and checking to make sure you didn't put down a PO box for an address on your 4473. They also check your 4473 address with the address on your DL. Some dealers may do things differently but that's how they do it where I live. So basically all you need is a DL and something other than a PO box for an address.

So here is how full timers do this residency requirement for a DL and just about everything else. They lease a lot in an RV park. The RV park has a physical address and your mail goes to that address. The RV park sorts your mail and you pick it up. If you are someplace else they forward it.

It's possible to lease an RV lot for 3K annually and only be there for a short period. Certain RV parks are co-op's and will manage your lot as a rental when you aren't there. You go back to that state when you want a new DL and vehicle registration.

My inquiries lead me to believe that most full timers that lease or purchase deeds to these lots spend some time there. Some of them spend the winter there as most are in the south. The rest of the time they are moving around the country.

So Frank is correct. The leased or deeded lot covers the intent. Some states have different requirements so the RV parks just meet those requirements.

Are you breaking Fed. law if you purchase a gun this way? I'm not an attorney so I can't answer that. I'm pretty sure a lot of people have done it and are still walking around without supervision.

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49

Quote:
"Full time RVers" will find it difficult, if not impossible, to buy a firearm in any state. This is because they will usually be unable to provide government issued alternate documentation showing their name and a residence address.

Not exactly.

Yes, exactly.

Most full time RV'ers have found a way to do that and not own property or reside in any state for any length of time. I've been on the road for 3 months and talked to dozens of full timers. I'm not a full timer but I spend a lot of time on the road.

It doesn't matter one bit the opinion of those full time RVers.......what matters is Federal law. If you do not have a residence address and a government issued photo ID that shows your current residence address, then you must provide an alternate government issued document with the current residence address and your name.

Obviously a dealer isn't going to ask you for tax records because people who rent or lease don't pay property tax and some states don't have an income tax. My state doesn't. Mostly they are looking for a DL and checking to make sure you didn't put down a PO box for an address on your 4473. They also check your 4473 address with the address on your DL. Some dealers may do things differently but that's how they do it where I live. So basically all you need is a DL and something other than a PO box for an address.

You need to read the instructions on the 4473.
Question 2 on the 4473 asks for the buyer/transferees "current residence address". If you are a "full time RVer" and are not actually residing at that address you commit a felony by signing the 4473. Typically those claiming to be "full time RVers" do not maintain a home at a fixed address, but make their RV their "home". If that is the case, they would be lying on the 4473.

So here is how full timers do this residency requirement for a DL and just about everything else. They lease a lot in an RV park. The RV park has a physical address and your mail goes to that address. The RV park sorts your mail and you pick it up. If you are someplace else they forward it.

In that case the buyers DL must have that address......and the RVer must consider it his "home". Where the mail goes is irrelevant. The fact that the RV park forwards the mail is a pretty good indication that you don't actually live there nor make it your home.......which means it isn't your current residence address.

It's possible to lease an RV lot for 3K annually and never be there, ever. Certain RV parks are co-op's and will manage your lot as a rental when you aren't there. You go back to that state when you want a new DL and vehicle registration.

Again, renting, owning or leasing property has nothing to do with your Question 2 "Current residence address" or Question 13 "state of residence".

So Frank is correct. The leased or deeded lot covers the intent.

That is only part of the issue.
The problem "full time RVers" have is providing documentation:
1. Buyer/transferee must have a government issued photo ID with CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.
2. If that ID does not show the current residence address, than alternate GOVERNMENT ISSUED documents with current residence address and the buyer/transferees name.

As I posted above, a "full time RVer" may hold a drivers license, but will not be able to truthfully answer Que. 2 on the 4473 or provide alternate documentation if he does answer truthfully.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Where is the ATF regulation that says you must reside at your address of record for a given number of days?

I didn't see it. Can you provide that? All I see is "intent must be demonstrated by" .................

Just going by what the ATF published and not trying to make it something it isn't or read between the lines.

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49 Where is the ATF regulation that says you must reside at your address of record for a given number of days?

There isn't one.
I posted it earlier, but here it is straight from ATF:
https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-6.pdf

 

[CoalTrain49]

There isn't one.

So by your definition a full timer has no residence.

But the state gave the person a DL and registered their vehicle. In TX you have to be there 30 days to accomplish this. A DL is the "valid documentation identification" that the ATF requires and the dealer asks for. As far as the state is concerned that person is a resident. If that person gives his DL to LE in another state they are going to assume they are a resident of TX because they have a TX DL.

Now as far as the background check goes I have no clue what the FBI looks at but this is an interesting scenario.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just not seeing how you come to your conclusion.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just not seeing how you come to your conclusion.

For the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968, under federal law "State of Residence" is defined as (27 CFR 478.11, emphasis added):

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3.

A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4.

A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.​

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49

Quote:
There isn't one.

So by your definition a full timer has no residence.

It's not my definition, it's ATF regulation/Federal law.

But the state gave the person a DL and registered their vehicle. In TX you have to be there 30 days to accomplish this...

Again, what a state says about "residency" is immaterial.
For the purposes of buying a firearm, ATF considers you a resident of the state where you make your home.
-There is no minimum number of days required to meet the ATF regulation.
-There is no requirement to have a drivers license from that state.

A DL is the "valid documentation identification" that the ATF requires ....

ATF does not require a drivers license. It can be ANY government issued photo ID that shows the buyers name and current residence address.

As far as the state is concerned that person is a resident. If that person gives his DL to LE in another state they are going to assume they are a resident of TX because they have a TX DL.

Irrelevant.

Now as far as the background check goes I have no clue what the FBI looks at but this is an interesting scenario.

The transaction would never get to the background check. If it does, the "full time RVer" committed a felony when they lied about their state of residence or actual current residence address.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just not seeing how you come to your conclusion.

Read the instructions on the 4473 and the ATF "State of Residence" ruling I posted above.

It is entirely possible for a "full time RVer" to make his home in Lot 34 of Rancho Snowbird Estates in McAllen, TX for four months a year. That would make Texas his "state of residence" for the purposes of buying a firearm. Lot 34 would be his current residence address. None of this is an issue.

The problem is his drivers license or any other government issued photo ID will not show Lot 34 as his address.........and it's pretty unlikely that he would have any other government issued document that shows his name and current address to use as alternate documentation. Without such documentation he cannot legally purchase a firearm from a licensed dealer.

 

[CoalTrain49]

OK, I read all of the ATF regulations and I'm still not satisfied that a deeded or leased lot in an RV park without a permanent structure (motor home or travel trailer) can't be used as a permanent residence for the purpose of buying a firearm. I can ask my attorney.

If true this seems to me to be somewhat of a discriminatory practice by the ATF given that lots of people are moving around a lot in retirement. Some of them sell their house, buy a motor home and travel. Why should that single fact keep them from buying a firearm. Is it because the ATF doesn't want transients buying firearms? I can tell you some of these people have plenty of money, they just don't want to be tied down to a house with maintenance and property taxes when they don't use it very often.

Of course another work around would be to do a private purchase in a state where those are still legal and circumvent the ATF altogether. Maybe this is one of the reasons so many people object to the way the ATF does business.

Just for the record I'm not a full timer, I pay property taxes and I have a street address on my DL.

Thanks for trying to address my question. It is what it is.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I read all of the ATF regulations and I'm still not satisfied that a deeded or leased lot in an RV park without a permanent structure (motor home or travel trailer) can't be used as a permanent residence for the purpose of buying a firearm. I can ask my attorney. ...

I suggest that you, or anyone else with similar concerns, ask your attorney. While you might not be satisfied, what will matter is whether a judge would be.

I haven't bothered to do any research to see if there's any case law on the question, but that needs to be done.

...Why should that single fact keep them from buying a firearm. Is it because the ATF doesn't want transients buying firearms?...

Most of these federal laws on interstate transfer go back to 1968 -- the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA68). GCA68 was Congress responding to enormous public pressure after the assignations by gunfire of three wildly popular public figures -- JFK, RFK and MLK. The law was intended to regulate and control the interstate transfer of firearms.

Of course the recent Federal District Court (Texas) decision in Mance v. Holder might ultimately change some things, but it will be a while before all the is sorted out.

...Of course another work around would be to do a private purchase in a state where those are still legal and circumvent the ATF altogether. Maybe this is one of the reasons so many people object to the way the ATF does business....

But unless both the transferor and transferee are residents of the same State (as defined under federal law) that would violate federal law.

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49 OK, I read all of the ATF regulations and I'm still not satisfied that a deeded or leased lot in an RV park without a permanent structure (motor home or travel trailer) can't be used as a permanent residence for the purpose of buying a firearm.

You are missing the point. :banghead:
State of residence has nothing at all to do with whether you own, lease, rent, borrow, homestead or squat on a piece of property. It has nothing to do with the type of structure you live in, it could be a mansion, pup tent, trailer, hotel room, hole in the ground or a dog house.

"State of Residence" has to do with making your home.
From the ATF "State of Residence" Ruling:
"...temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State...."

A "deeded or leased lot" CAN be used with an RV............but you have to meet all the other requirements as well.
-it must be your "home".
-Buyer/transferee must have a government issued photo ID with CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS. If that ID does not show the current residence address, than alternate GOVERNMENT ISSUED documents with current residence address and the buyer/transferees name.

If true this seems to me to be somewhat of a discriminatory practice by the ATF given that lots of people are moving around a lot in retirement.

It's not the least bit discriminatory. Same law applies to everyone. If you live in an Extended Stay America hotel, you could buy a firearm as long as you consider it your home and have the required documents.

Some of them sell their house, buy a motor home and travel. Why should that single fact keep them from buying a firearm.

It doesn't. All they need to do is make a home and have the required documents.

Is it because the ATF doesn't want transients buying firearms?

It's not ATF, its Federal law.(Gun Control Act of 1968)

I can tell you some of these people have plenty of money, they just don't want to be tied down to a house with maintenance and property taxes when they don't use it very often.

Irrelevant.

Of course another work around would be to do a private purchase in a state where those are still legal and circumvent the ATF altogether.

That's a felony.
You either are a resident of a state or you are not. Only residents of the same state my buy/sell/trade firearms with each other. Any nonresident transfer must be with a licensed dealer.

Maybe this is one of the reasons so many people object to the way the ATF does business.

That objection is often based on ignorance of Federal law or regulation. Regulatory agencies are given latitude in how they interpret the law, but they are still subject to Congressional or judicial scrutiny.