Is Less More?

[drband]

Carry a bersa t380 in the summer w/ a 9 rd deluxe mag for 10 total. Don't have a 9mm that's as small and lightweight. My xdsc 9mm is thick and chunky in comparison. I don't feel inadequate in rd count or stopping power for SD.

 

[snooperman]

If , as you say, the 380 and 9mm are of the same size , I would choose the 380. WHY? The lower recoil of the 380 will allow faster follow-up shots with better control. There are 380 HP ammo now that will give 11-12" penetration with good expansion. I'll take the 380, thank you. ,,,, That said, if you would let me have my compact 24 oz S&W 3913, OWB carry against my SIG P238, then we are talking apples and oranges, and I would gladly take the 9mm.

 

[bannockburn]

Voted 9mm. with fewer rounds than a comparable .380 with more. Pretty much the reason why I got a Kahr PM9. Have a couple of small .380s, which are great for warm weather attire but feel the 9mm. provides me with better ovetall performance.

 

[snooperman]

No offense, but I have the Kahr PM9 and the SIG P238 which are about the same size and weight. The SIG 380 P238 is a much better performer for me than the Kahr PM9. I can shoot it much faster and for up close encounters the heavier recoil of the light weight pocket nines is not an advantage for me. I carry the P238 daily and the PM9 stays in my truck, where it belongs. My 2 cents.

 

[Luger_carbine]

Using that same logic, why not carry a .45? I really find it to be very amusing how the over all consensus in giving up a round or two in favor of more power is now being condoned in this thread.

Caliber and terminal performance do not follow a linear scale with all other things being equal. If it did we could include .177 and .50 cal as bookends on this discussion.

380 ACP is not as close to 9mm in real world performance as some in this thread have suggested.

Why is it that ShootingTheBull410 was only able to find 2 or 3 brands of 380 that are able to consistently expand and penetrate through 4 layers of denim and penetrate 12" in gel - from a 3" barrel, and the brands that he did find just barely do that, but his tests show many 9mm brands capable of doing that. His testing has turned up several brands - like 147gr Federal HST that can penetrate 4 layers of denim and penetrate past 13" in gel - from a 3" barrel and consistently expand past .60" in diameter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VfWkWMzOI&index=11&list=PLgNSGOEQko_M90AMdRCDMgd-w4Yozc27i

The 380 ACP and the 9mm aren't nearly as close as this thread supposes.

 

[snooperman]

Most people practice at ranges shooting their carry guns with 2 hands. Bad idea. Most often the confrontation will only allow a one hand shot. Shooting small "pocket" nines with a one- hand- draw is much more difficult than with an equal size 380. I have practiced this repeatedly here at my farm range and the 380 is more accurate at up-close targets with a one hand draw and with faster follow-up shots than the PM9. Sorry, but when it comes to up-close defense, my pocket 380 SIG P238 will out-shine the equal size Kahr PM9 every time. Snoop

 

[snooperman]

It is not the power of the 9mm that is in question , we all know the nine wins in that . Shot placement and quick follow-up is much more important than the bullet weight and speed. That is why the little 380 with proper ammo wins the fight quicker. The 11" of penetration with the 380 is quite adequate at these up-close distances. Look at the evidence done by Greg Ellifritz and others on actual shootings and you will see that there is very little difference between the 380 and 9mm in actual up-close shootings in stopping the bad guy. Shot placement and quick follow-up wins more fights than more bullet penetration and power alone.

 

[snooperman]

Well, if we want to talk about a house gun or a gun fight at the "O.K. Coral", I will take my Glock 17 , Thank you.

 

[C0untZer0]

At least one part of Greg Ellifritz's methodology doesn't make sense to me:

- One shot stop percentage - number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall's number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.

A one-shot-stop is not a derived number that is calculated, a one-shot-stop is a discrete event - like you'd expect, an instance where someone was shot - just once and stopped. So it isn't a number that is derived by a calculation, it is a number arrived at by counting the incidents where a one-shot-stop occurred.

His "fatal" categorization is flawed too. A .25 ACP FMJ can zip through the lower lung, miss major blood vessels and ultimately prove not to be fatal, or a round could be a torso hit, but due to clothing and bullet design, stop on a rib or otherwise fail to penetrate, and it's ultimately not fatal. You don't know what a fatal wound was until a coroner actually looks at the wound and declares that particular wound was the cause of death, or would have resulted in death due to the nature of the wound.

Am I the only one who looks at Greg Ellifritz's data and conclusions and sees problems with it?

 

[kokapelli]

380 simply because in micro pistols I shoot the 380 better.

 

[LiveLife]

I would choose 6 rounds of 9mm over 8 rounds of 380.

But I prefer 10 rounds of 9mm +P.

And I carry 10 rounds of 40S&W.

If ... the 380 and 9mm are of the same size , I would choose the 380. WHY? The lower recoil of the 380 will allow faster follow-up shots with better control.

Depends on the pistol.

There are 380 HP ammo now that will give 11-12" penetration with good expansion.

Depends on the barrel/length. Actual peneration and expansion may vary, especially if your barrel is shorter and muzzle velocity slower than test barrel used.

It is not the power of the 9mm that is in question, we all know the nine wins in that . Shot placement and quick follow-up is much more important than the bullet weight and speed. That is why the little 380 with proper ammo wins the fight quicker.

Your premise and logic are flawed.

Terminal velocity/energy of your projectile, shot placement, amount of vascular/neurological damage to the body and the willingness of the attacker to fight determine whether you SURVIVE the attack. I don't want to merely survive the attack with injuries but stop/drop the attacker before harm is done to me, if possible. You can place all the rounds of your 380 in the attacker's body in the right places using the "proper" ammunition but the attacker may still reach your body in time to slit your throat.

Just last night on TV, I saw a video of a patrolman shoot an armed suspect several feet away and even after 6 rounds hit the body, the suspect still returned fire and wounded the officer. I believe the officer was using a 9mm. Keep in mind that the terminal velocity of service pistol barrel length is greater than from a CCW/compact pistol with a shorter barrel.

It is for these reasons why I switched from G26 to G27 with +1 mag base so I have the same 10 round capacity but in 40S&W with spare magazine available for reload just in case threat is still real and/or there are more than one attacker.

 

[LiveLife]

Most people practice at ranges shooting their carry guns with 2 hands. Bad idea. Most often the confrontation will only allow a one hand shot. Shooting small "pocket" nines with a one- hand- draw is much more difficult than with an equal size 380. I have practiced this repeatedly here at my farm range and the 380 is more accurate at up-close targets with a one hand draw and with faster follow-up shots than the PM9. Sorry, but when it comes to up-close defense, my pocket 380 SIG P238 will out-shine the equal size Kahr PM9 every time.

But some of us are not "most" people. I tell people I shoot with to practice with both hands, strong hand, weak hand until they are proficient at hitting COM at defensive distances of 7-10 yards regardless which pistol they use.

I have TCP 738 available when G27 is not appropriate but I can shoot G27 better and faster whether I use 2 hands or 1 hand.

 

[kokapelli]

Just last night on TV, I saw a video of a patrolman shoot an armed suspect several feet away and even after 6 rounds hit the body, the suspect still returned fire and wounded the officer. I believe the officer was using a 9mm. Keep in mind that the terminal velocity of service pistol barrel length is greater than from a CCW/compact pistol with a shorter barrel.

There are all kinds of similar incidents with 45, 40 and 9mm as well. Seven rounds of 45 cal from a Thompson Sub Machine gun to Baby Face Nelson's upper torso did not stop him from killing the two FBI agents that ambushed him either and remember that the Thompson has 16.5" barrel as well.

 

[LiveLife]

There are all kinds of similar incidents with 45, 40 and 9mm as well.

Yes, my point exactly. Attackers in real life don't drop and die on the spot the moment they are shot regardless of caliber/bullet weight/price tag on the box of ammunition.

Unlike the movies, real life videos on Youtube clearly demonstrates this.

 

[kokapelli]

Yes, my point exactly. Attackers in real life don't drop and die on the spot the moment they are shot regardless of caliber/bullet weight/price tag on the box of ammunition.

Unlike the movies, real life videos on Youtube clearly demonstrates this.

Exactly and in most situations the effect of your just having a pistol is more important than the pistol's caliber.

 

[snooperman]

bds, the attacker can slit your throat just as easily from being shot by a 9mm bullet as a 380 bullet if the shot placement is not in the right place. My point is that the lower recoil of the 380 will allow me more shots on target faster than an equal size 9mm pocket gun. My SIG P238 is about the same size and weight as My PM9 , but for me , it is faster into action and that in my opinion is a bigger plus than the more difficult to shoot PM9 which has a heavier bullet with more recoil .

 

[snooperman]

I also agree with Kokapelli, that just having a gun most often without regards to caliber can stop the fight.

 

[LiveLife]

That is why the little 380 with proper ammo wins the fight quicker.

That's the part I have particular issues with. Are you saying you have better chance at "winning the fight" because you are armed with a 380 that you can shoot faster and more accurate?

I am thinking the attacker could be armed with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP pistol ... and trained to shoot accurate and fast with 1 or 2 hands ...

I also agree with Kokapelli, that just having a gun most often without regards to caliber can stop the fight.

The attacker could be thinking the same ... and hope that you drop your 380 pistol ... because he got a bigger gun.

In my humble opinion, if you think having a 380 pistol that you can shoot faster and more accurate than another particular 9mm pistol that you can't shoot well will make you more comfortable and "win the fight faster", then that's your choice.

The OP posted 8 rounds of 380 vs 6 rounds of 9mm. I think if the two pistols were comparable in size, I would spend more time training to ensure I was proficient with the 9mm. And if that pistol did not work out, I would get another 9mm pistol that I could shoot fast and accurate.

 

[Tcruse]

Gun Size is the limit

I picked the 380 thinking that if the gun was that small, less recoil would be better. Now, I question at what point does a gun become too small. I have not evaluated the new Glock .380 but a G26 is still big enough to be fully functional with 10/12 rounds of 9mm +P.

 

[LiveLife]

Keep in mind the OP did not specify the make/model of pistols or trigger type, just round capacities with pistols of comparable size and ACCURACY. So I take it that OP meant I was able to shoot both the 380 and 9mm pistols equally well. In this case, i would choose 9mm over 380 any day.

For concealed carry, assuming pistols of similar size, reliability, accuracy ... 380 with 8 rounds or a 9mm with 6?

I'm asking regarding hypothetical weapons, not any specific brand, model, etc.

 

[David E]

I like the Ammo Quest reviews the best. He's the only one that shoots FIVE bullets into the gel. Everyone else fires one. Unless it fully penetrates both blocks. Then they shoot another and proceed as if the first excessively penetrating round never happened.

 

[snooperman]

bds, you are reading far more into it than is necessary and assuming much too much for the sake of a rational discussion of the question posted by the OP. You can read into it what you wish as there are no absolutes. I can get my 380 into action quicker with more shots on target than I can with a 9mm of the same size. Both guns have the same number of rounds. The OP asked about 9mm and 380 in similar sized pistols and your rant is way off subject to be considered anything more than what farmers call horse manure talk.

 

[LiveLife]

snooperman, fair enough. Maybe I was hungry ... just finished my breakfast and feeling less cranky. Corned beef hash and eggs! Yum

So then I guess we can move on and let others discuss the ballistics of 8 380 holes vs 6 9mm holes.

Peace.

 

[Resist Evil]

.380acp is a 9mm short. I prefer the extra punch of the 9mm 'long.'

 

[dsk]

I don't own a sub-compact 9mm because all the ones I tried were too hard to control and shoot accurately. If I had a small 9mm that I could shoot well (like a Kahr P9) then a similar-sized .380 would be too large for its caliber. Therefore I find the OP's question too complex to answer, even though on its surface it seems a simple one. I would definitely rather have either one than no gun at all. Aside from that however, I think we need a ballistics expert to tell us if the damage caused by eight .380 rounds is the same or greater than that left by six 9mm bullets. I'm a bit inclined to go with the .380 just because it gives me two more chances to hit my attacker(s) before I have to kiss my hairy arse goodbye.