Is Open Carry Practical

[FSCJedi]

I am currently stationed in South Korea but will be going home on leave within the next two weeks for over a month. I am still waiting on my CWL renewal to come back from the sheriff's office (they said 30-45 days, but were running behind). It expired while I was here and I didn't realize it until last month. If I get home and my license isn't waiting on me, you can be sure I'll be open carrying. I've done it before and never been hassled. This is in WV, though, and we're pretty gun friendly. I also doubt that I'll be looked at as "looking for a gunfight" seeing as how I currently walk with a cane.

I also fail to see how open carrying "hurts" our cause as responsible gun owners. Until the public starts seeing this on a regular basis, sure, they'll probably be uncomfortable; however, that's just because it's not common. I'm not about to limit myself just because I want to make the sheep feel better. When the sight of responsible gun owners open carrying firearms becomes more common, the public will become use to it and stop thinking that everyone open carrying is out about to shoot up the town like in the "wild west".

 

[BlackBearME]

After all, carrying a gun isn't about self-defense, it's only about rights!
It's not about personal safety, it's purely about freedom!
It's not about defending your family, it's all about the second amendment!
It's not about resisting crime, it's solely about shoring up the constitution!

Holy crap, JohnKSa. Tell us how you really feel, I implore you!
I don't think anyone's denying it's about personal protection or self defense. I think the fact is that we pretty much all agree on that, and some of us (I for one) think that while we're carrying to defend ourselves, we might as well do some work to further the cause.

And I believe it does help to further the cause, despite what some may say:

People see you as looking to get in a gun fight (I know you're not, but that's what they see), and as a backwoods redneck who doesn't have the intelligence and restraint to responsibly be allowed to carry a firearm.

How...what...huh? So what you're saying is that every single person who carries, has ever carried, and will ever carry a sidearm open and exposed, while going about their daily business in a normal fashion, is automatically viewed as someone who doesn't have the responsibility to be allowed to carry a firearm? Not only is the premise slightly off-base, but you realize that in the same argument of trying to portray all OCers as the evil image of the gun community, you also did what all of us in the gun community severly dislike: stereotyped. It's bad enough we do get stereotyped. And now you've turned around and said that every single person who sees someone OCing automatically and without reservation makes the assumption that that person is looking for a fight.

Here's what gets me the most, cowssurf. Your post essentially says that a person open-carrying a sidearm automatically is viewed as someone who is not responsible enough to carry a sidearm. I personally believe that open carrying of a firearm is a right, inalienable and all of that. After all, the second amendment says "Keep and bear arms" not "keep and bear concealed arms." Even the people on here who dislike Open Carry admit that it's legal and we have the right to do so. So tell me: If carrying a firearm automatically displays you as someone who is irresponsible to carry a firearm, how exactly does one show that they are a responsible firearm-bearer, and still open carry? I can't wrap my head around this premise.

 

[gunsmith]

rights are rights

substitute a few words in the OP and some things become clearer.


My point is that interracial dating, while legal isn't practical and that it draws far more negative attention than its deterrent value is worth. My personal experience is that I've never had a positive response from others when I
practiced interracial dating anywhere but in the backcountry.

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

Gunsmith, that may be true, but how are things ever going to change if no one practices either OC or ID? We are fighting against the norm here, and the norm is that people date people of their own race and they don't carry firearms in public.

And the masses fear what they do not understand.

 

[Louisiana Carry]

Wow, JohnKSa, that was unnecessary.

 

[WayneConrad]

Until then, I'll keep defending the second amendment in my community as a firearm safety instructor, supporting and holding office in local gun clubs, participating in local gun rights efforts, contributing to my state firearm association, writing to my legislators, voting responsibly, supporting national gun rights organizations, and other puerile endeavors such as that. Sadly, that all comes to naught because my gun will be concealed the whole time.

JohnKSKa, Thank you for the work you have also done. Comes to naught because you conceal carry? Of course not.

My part in gun advocacy is piddling. I'm a bit player. Many others certainly do much more for our cause.

 

[PennsyPlinker]

Yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with you completely is a gun grabber, an anti-patriot and a sheeple... This is my biggest heartburn with this topic. If FULL agreement can't be reached on ALL counts then the OC'ers start making nasty accusations.

I have to tell you John, the nastiest accusations seem to be coming from you. I had bowed out of this thread because of the vitriol, but here I am again, wrestling in the mud. Give it a rest, walk away from it, and try to realize that no one is out to get you, and if our choices differ from yours, that does not make us wrong, nor does it make you wrong.

What is wrong is the hatred you seem to have for people who you cannot coerce into your way of thinking.

 

[customizedcreationz]

While I havent read the whole thread, Open Carry in Michigan is legal. While I dont practice it too often, mostly around the outside of the house is the extent due to laws of driving with it and stuff like that. But more and more I think about it. And I am anxious to read more of this thread when I have time.

SUBSCRIBED to the thread !!

 

[MarcusWendt]

Yup, this is always how it ends up--and how it will always end up. Because this isn't about logic to some people, it's about who is the better American.

I hope you didn't take my post that way.

I would prefer CCW, but I live in CA so that's a pipe dream for me. OC is the ONLY option other than not carrying at all. I don't think it makes me a better American if I open carry, in fact I feel like an oppressed America as I have fewer options.

However, I don't have a problem with others, who do have options, who choose to OC. I'm just tired of trying to live my life to avoid offending ANYONE. Where does it end.

"Don't open carry, you might upset a lib (I'm a lib in many ways) and make gun owners look bad".

"Don't eat a BLT, you might upset a Muslim".

Where does it end?

 

[poor_richard]

I'd like to know where anyone supporting OC even once criticized someone for "not OC'ing". It's been quite the opposite actually. Most pro-OC'ers comment that, "it's not for everyone", or "if you don't want to do it, then don't.". That isn't calling someone a bad American.

 

[cowssurf]

BlackBear,

I know it's hard for you to wrap you head around the concept. That's why I wanted to explain to you how gun grabbers see you. I didn't say gun grabbers use infallible logic. Open carriers who they see as responsible are called cops. Everyone keeps saying, "It's our right and I don't care what they all think." Great, but here's what they think, "Wow, that's dangerous, let's outlaw that." And they have. And then they're more nervous and reluctant to allow concealed carry.

Concealed carry is about one thousand times better than open carry (that is the scientific number). Concealed carry does not preclude a large number of people from doing their jobs. I couldn't go to work and open carry, but I can concealed. I would venture to say, that is the case with most people. Concealed carry doesn't preclude you from legally carrying in a place of business that has a no firearm policy. With open carry, any private business has the right to kick you out (of course that is also true for concealed carry, but the beauty is they'll probably never know). And last but not least, concealed carry doesn't make people freak out and develop antipathy towards gun ownership. We have to realize that the vast majority of people don't carry a concealed weapon, and as such, we fight a careful uphill battle to maintain these rights. And all the arguing and indignation about our rights doesn't change the fact that we are vastly outnumbered. So the less we alarm people the further we'll go. That is obviously just my opinions, but some of us are right and some of us are wrong. Or the truth may lie elsewhere. I contend that we be sensible as opposed to rattling our sabers when we realize the large number of people we're trying to get to come along with us.

 

[Mainsail]

Cowsurf, you need to learn how distinguish fact from belief. Your entire post is belief presented as factual. Concealed carry is not ‘better’ than open carry by any percent, it’s just different. If you’re going to make that claim, please provide some citation where we can independently go to verify your claim; if you cannot do so then you’re just blowing smoke. Your entire approach is black and white, as though someone has to choose one or the other but not both. Each manner of carry has distinct advantages and disadvantages.

After study and experience (lacking from most of the people against OC) I determined that openly carrying has far more advantages for me than concealed carry. I don’t want to ‘surprise’ a mugger by concealing my sidearm; instead I prefer he be deterred.

I think many of the people who are against open carry are hoping someone will start some trouble with them so they can whip out their concealed handgun and say something clever, something they practiced many times in front of the mirror when nobody else was home, like, “Do you feel lucky punk?”

It’s not an “either or” concept. I can carry my Sig 1911 comfortable in an OWB holster concealed under my jacket and if it gets hot or I go inside, I can take the jacket off and carry openly.

 

[VAshooter10]

I live in an eastern state, Virginia, and open carry is legal here. I have many friends who open carry every day and I have never seen a reaction to it while I was with any or them. I conceal carry most of the time but on occasion I open carry as well. I've never heard of anyone having a problem

In Virginia it is illegal to conceal carry in a resturant that serves alcohol but open carry is legal in those places. You are not allowed to drink while you are "packing" but that makes sense and my friends arn't drinkers anyway.

I'm suprised at all the fighting going on on this forum over the simple act of carrying a pistol.

Doug

 

[Titan6]

That about sums it up for me as well. It seems some people in this thread think that only the police and military should carry guns. Unless this is True:

It makes police and military look like morons. It makes them look like "those gun nuts" that gun grabbers point to to prove their arguments. The general public thinks the police look like a bunch of Wild Bill Hickocks and are scared to see guns openly carried. I truly think it's a bad idea to open carry a gun in a modern society. For the police who can't step outside themselves and see how they are percieved, this is how it's {I percieve it} percieved: People see the police as looking to get in a gun fight (I know the police are not, but that's what they see), and as a backwoods redneck who doesn't have the intelligence and restraint to responsibly be allowed to carry a firearm. Then they say to themselves, we need to make a law banning that. Don't open carry, it hurts our cause.

 

[Werewolf]

After all, carrying a gun isn't about self-defense, it's only about rights!
It's not about personal safety, it's purely about freedom!
It's not about defending your family, it's all about the second amendment!
It's not about resisting crime, it's solely about shoring up the constitution!

Whoaaaa - Nellie! The universe isn't digital, we don't live in a black and white world and contrary to what one of our masters has to say it ain't a case of you're either with us or against us.

OC and CCW both have their place in the grand scheme of things. Mostly its a matter of personal preference based on each person's set priorities.

We've got a huge thread delineating what those priorities are.

Like they say One man's trash is another's treasure.

 

[WayneConrad]

This is a struggle on multiple fronts, with many roles to play.

Just play a game of chess sometime.

Or examine any historic battle.

Even those of us with seemingly conflicting goals can find themselves working together in ways that surprise everyone. Sometimes seemingly by accident.

We all want more liberty, don't we?

 

[tinygnat219]

I don't care for the practice, if someone wants to make it known that they are carrying a gun, and therefore making themselves a target, that's their business and that's their right. I will carry concealed and blend in. However, just because I think Open Carry is silly, it doesn't mean I will work to change the law to make it illegal. I will support our right to Open Carry when necessary. However, that's all I will be doing for it.

I feel the same way about civilians owning .50 BMG rifles. I really don't see a need for these things in civilian hands. However, just because I don't see a need for these doesn't mean I will work to take them away. I will support our right to own a .50 BMG rifle when necessary.

Why do I feel this way? Well, it's personal preference. I don't like certain things about the shooting hobby, or some of the games. So I don't attend the certain events, do certain styles of carry, or own certain guns. What might surprise you is that I will be among the first to defend the rights to own them or practice your carry style because we have lost too much already.

 

[jrfoxx]

I know it's hard for you to wrap you head around the concept. That's why I wanted to explain to you how gun grabbers see you. I didn't say gun grabbers use infallible logic. Open carriers who they see as responsible are called cops. Everyone keeps saying, "It's our right and I don't care what they all think." Great, but here's what they think, "Wow, that's dangerous, let's outlaw that." And they have. And then they're more nervous and reluctant to allow concealed carry.

Yeah, those of us who open carry are the reason anti-gunners and hoplohobes hate guns, want them banned,and are "reluctant to allow concealled carry". Sure, cause if my arrogant, gun nut, arse didnt open carry, they'd be all for it (or even offer less resistance), and the Brady's would be out of a job. Also, I fail to see where you get your ideas on the pereption of open carry,when 99% of those who do it, have posted that they have gotten no reaction, or a POSITIVE reaction, as opposed to the blind, screaming fear and hatred that you say we'll get.Also,I'm not aware of any states that have banned conceled carry,or had trouble passing conceled carry, inspite of a LARGE number of people who open carry in he state regularly (Arizona is a good example). Nothing you say is based on ANYTHING even close to fact, or even real life observations, from what I can see, asit just doesnt hold up in ANY WAY to what PAGES worth of other posters have stad was thei actual experiances when OC'ing.As for what's "ridiulous",it's your agument and presumption of being right in spite of the obvious, clearly stated, facts.If you "can't step outside" yourself and see the overwhelming evidence to contradict you, I'm sure more facts and examples can be shown to you. Are you able to do the same with YOUR claims?

Oh, an a number yo make up, isnt scientific, even if ou post i parenthesis that it is.just a tip.

 

[BlackBearME]

cowssurf
I'll accept most of your arguments. You're right, concealed carry is better in some situations - easier to go to work, gets less negative attention from LEO, less hassle in businesses, and can be a tactical advantage (though it's hard to weigh "concealed=tactical-getting-the-edge-on-the-bad-guy" against "visible-deterrent" and we'll never have the numbers to prove it either way, so let's all let that rest for now, shall we?)

Everyone keeps saying, "It's our right and I don't care what they all think." Great, but here's what they think, "Wow, that's dangerous, let's outlaw that." And they have. And then they're more nervous and reluctant to allow concealed carry.

You're wrong - at least with me. I do care what they think, and that's exactly why I want to open carry.

I will accept your arguments that some people do freak out when they see someone OCing. After all, we hear plenty of reports of cops being called for "Man with gun." I agree, it's not rational logic. The problem is it's a trend, and it's a downward spiral that doesn't show many signs of stopping. I feel I have the right to OC if I want to, and I imagine you (and most of the people here) would agree that we have the right and should retain it (even if you don't want to exercise it - and that's fine with me).

What I want to know then, is how you propose we get these rights back. I will not accept that we should just hide our guns (and our rights) away in a closet (or a pocket, or IWB) just because some people freak out. No one should. Look at the comparisons I and others drew above, in regards to race/interracial marriage/"separate but equal". Same situation - just because it's popular, doesn't mean it's right (or just because it's unpopular, doesn't mean it's not a right). But let's say for the moment that I accept your argument - that we shouldn't open carry because it will freak people out, and they'll work to ban guns. If I stop OCing, how do you propose we retain our rights? What specific mechanisms do you recommend we use to desensitive the public to get it back to the point where we can OC without people goggling at us and calling the cops?

As I see it (and correct me if I'm wrong) there are two options:
1) Carry concealed - no one ever open carries. This will open the avenue to banning OC, since no one does it anyway.
2) Carry open. This will densensitize people, and get people used to seeing what should be the norm (or at least acceptable). Please note: I am not saying EVERYONE should open carry, or even a majority. Just enough to make it seen on a semi-regular basis. I still advocate CC for those who want to (and I do more often than not.)

If you have a better suggestion on how we can get the people - all the people, on a national level - back on our side, or apathetic at the very least - then by all means, I would like to hear it.

 

[Mainsail]

Firearms have been so vilified in the media that a child with an image of a firearm is ordered to turn his shirt inside out by his school principal. Do you understand the depth of that? Firearms are very quickly becoming something to be feared and ashamed of. Even police officers are not above this concept. Students speaking out against firearms carry on campus have been known to say they are frightened by the idea of anyone carrying a handgun on school grounds, including sworn police officers!

When you quickly and nervously tug your shirt down over your inadvertently displayed concealed carry weapon, you are only reinforcing this belief. What does it say if you, as a firearms owner, are also exhibiting fear and shame regarding the carry of your firearm? You may not be ashamed of your carry, but in the eyes of someone neutral or against firearms, your actions send that very message. The best and most reliable way to counter this misconception is by showing firearms in a good light, which is exactly what we do when we peaceably open carry. When I stop to rent a move, buy groceries, pay my phone bill, shop for outdoor equipment, or sit in the coffee shop, and I smile and chat with the cashier or other patrons, I am demonstrating that firearms are ordinary and harmless.

 

[JohnKSa]

My point is that interracial dating, while legal isn't practical and that it draws far more negative attention than its deterrent value is worth. My personal experience is that I've never had a positive response from others when I practiced interracial dating anywhere but in the backcountry.

This is the PERFECT way to demonstrate exactly what I've been saying.

Do I think interracial dating should be legal? YES, OF COURSE I DO!
Would I date someone not of my race? You bet! If there were someone I liked who wasn't my race, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute.

But...

Would I do it to make a point?
Would I do it to fight for freedom?
Would I do it to prove how much I care about racial equality?
Would I do it to further the cause of racial equality and integration?

NO!

I would do it because it makes sense to date someone you like.

Would I go around advocating that other people date interracially to further the cause?
Would I imply that those who dated members of their own race were closet racists?

NO!

I would defend their RIGHT to do as I do, but I would certainly not look down on them for making different choices. After all, there are many things that can reasonably be expected to affect a person's choice of a mate, it would be SUPREME egotism for me to assume that I know why they act as they do. Furthermore, the idea that someone should be feel coerced into dating interacially simply to further the fight for freedom is almost as abhorrent as the idea that someone should be prohibited from interacial dating.

Theres a significant undercurrent in this thread (and in many if not most OC threads I've seen) of people promoting the idea that those who don't all go out and OC or campaign vigorously to promote OC are anti-second. That those who choose to CC instead of OC are hurting the gun rights cause either intentionally or out of ignorance. That those who point out that CC has advantages over OC are no better than Sarah Brady.

That's the same as saying someone's racist because he married someone of his own race. It's the same as saying that only people who date interracially truly believe in equality and integration.

In short, I'm sick and tired of the accusations and the "holier than thou" approach taken by the OC "pushers". And I don't mean that everyone who's posted on this thread in favor of OC is an OC "pusher", it's clear who is and who isn't.

...it ain't a case of you're either with us or against us.

Oh no? How would you interpret this statement?

I still say some of these arguments are just alternate verses for a song by the brady bunch.

...or this one?

I would keep my cross or star of David hidden, or not wear my head scarf. It might make someone mad or scared and they might pass a law to restrict my religious rights. Someone might even hurt me. It's better to keep my religion to myself.

Right, those who don't OC are doing so because they're ashamed of their status as gun owners and won't openly support the constitution. You don't think that's polarizing? What about...

There was a time that you couldn't date whoever you wanted because it might offend someone. Sure, it was LEGAL, but who'd take the risk? You'd be beaten and the police would sure as hell be on your rear end.

So those who practice OC are campaigning for freedom! Those who aren't, well...we all know what they are...

So basically all the .gov needs to do is trouble us out of our rights?

In other words, those who don't OC because they can't afford police harassment, are cowards. Noooo... That's not gonna give anyone the idea that this is a black or white issue!

What is wrong is the hatred you seem to have for people who you cannot coerce into your way of thinking.

My "way of thinking" is that OC should be legal everywhere as I posted on my first entry to this thread. I guess that bothers you?

Hatred is a strong word, but I'm pretty sick of seeing people voice legitimate concerns about OC only to be dismissed as cowardly, compared to closet racists, accused of being anti-gun, etc.

 

[JesseL]

JohnKSa:

You misapplied the interracial dating analogy.

If you were dating interracially, would you support other interracial couples being seen together publicly, or would you advise them to keep their relationship under wraps?

Would you worry that interracial couples being seen in public might encourage the reestablishment of anti-miscegenation laws?

Or, would you think that the common sight of an interracial couple might help to combat bigotry and segregation?

Edit:
I'd like to add that either way, you would of course, be furthering your cause.
If you love someone of another race, having a loving relationship with them is the most important thing.
If you want to carry a firearm, carrying is the most important thing (open or concealed - your choice).

And you JohnKSa are certainly doing far more than your share to further our cause. No one can fault you there.

 

[Mainsail]

Harassment by the police:

I hear this come up whenever OC is discussed. There’s an apprehension about getting hassled by the police. OK folks, here’s the low-down on police and open carry. If open carry is legal in your state, the police shouldn’t bother you at all. Read up on State V Ohio; the police cannot detain you unless he or she has reasonable articuable suspicion that you are, have just, or are about to commit a crime. If open carry is legal, there is no crime for which they can detain you.

Trust me, if you don’t know your rights, you’re at a tremendous disadvantage whether you carry open or concealed.

 

[JohnKSa]

Would you worry that interracial couples being seen in public might encourage the reestablishment of anti-miscegenation laws?

Well, I might WORRY about that, but I wouldn't recommend that interracial people should avoid being seen in public to prevent it. It's certainly possible for bigoted persons to be inflamed and motivated to campaign for anti-miscegenation laws as a result of the sight, but that, in and of itself, is not a reason to hide.

Yes, their being seen could help combat bigotry, HOWEVER, that's not to say that every interracial couple seen in public is "furthering the cause." As with OC practicioners, the way the person(s) involved comport themselves can have either a positive or negative effect on the way they are perceived and on the views of others who see them.

This analogy does break down at a certain point (as all analogies must) since the act of carrying a pistol is, for many, a coldly and purely practical choice. We all understand that there are, in general, benefits in concealing your strengths from a potential enemy. To state, or even acknowledge that fact is often enough to draw rather harsh criticism from OC proponents, even when that same person asserts a belief that OC should be legal and even admits that there are times when exposing your strength to your enemy can be beneficial.

In fact, those who are inclined to assess the value of OC from a purely practical standpoint or who choose CC for purely objective reasons are often attacked indirectly by the implications that they don't care enough about the cause to sacrifice for it.

I think a little more tolerance and a little less emotion and innuendo are in order.

And you JohnKSa are certainly doing far more than your share to further our cause. No one can fault you there.

Well, that wasn't really my point, but thanks. Likewise I didn't intend any of my comments to be taken to mean that OC supporters and practicioners aren't doing their part. While I don't agree that the act of carrying openly is always beneficial to the cause of gun rights, it certainly CAN be.

 

[BlazingAngel01]

Mainsail I'm with you

Does a preemption Out way Ordinance such as:

The state allows for open carry but the city does not.