Is the age of the .40 S&W (and maybe .357 SIG) over?

[crestoncowboy]

a walking anachronism even,

I squirrel hunt with a hammer fired 100 year old shotgun while carrying a 10mm Glock with a red dot. Lol........

 

[fastbolt]

I've carried and trained with 9, .40 & .45 as a working cop and LE firearms trainer, and I own pistols chambered in each of them.

Now, if I were going to buy another pistol, it would probably be a Shield 40. If not that, maybe a Gen3 G36 (I'm in CA). I really liked the T&E Shield 40 we had at our range for a while, and that was compared to a Shield 9. Given my druthers, I find the .40/180gr combo to be fine, even if it has 1 less round of mag capacity than the Shield 9, and has a bit more snap/whip to it. (Hey, I carry/use J-frames loaded with .38SPL +P and .357MAG, so a little bit of felt recoil in the Shield 40 seems somewhat tame to me. )

The Gen3 G36? Well, after having handled and fired that model over the years as some of them came through our range, while I think the grip profile isn't the greatest, I didn't have any problem making the compact-ish .45 do what I wished it to do ... and it's a .45ACP. I'd still prefer my 3.25/6+1 CS45 and my 3.75"/6+1 4513TSW, and my Colt Officers is still a small Colt 1911, but the G36 isn't the worst choice for a smallish .45 pistol.

I think the Shield 40 would probably be a better addition than the G36 as a retirement CCW choice, though. Smaller and thinner than my 4040PD & 4013TSW compacts, and slimmer in the hand than my G27. Definitely shorter, slimmer and lighter than my M&P40C & SW9940.

Is the .40 S&W dead? Nah. No more so than the 9mm was "dead" when it was displaced as the #1 LE caliber by the arrival and growth in popularity of the .40 S&W. It'll quite likely hang onto a #2 position for the foreseeable future. The .357SIG will continue to fade in LE use, and do so much faster than the decline of the .40 S&W, but likely maintain some popularity among private owners. The .45ACP? It refuses to fade into history ... and it is America's pistol caliber. (But so is the .40 S&W, in that respect. )

 

[mcb]

I squirrel hunt with a hammer fired 100 year old shotgun while carrying a 10mm Glock with a red dot. Lol........

That is exactly what I am talking about!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I freely admit I am a conflicted person in this regards, a walking anachronism even, when it comes to this. When my Shooting Chrony dies I will be replacing it with a MyLabRadar, I have used one and love it. I use an app on my phone that used the camera to measure my shooting groups. And yet my newest gun is a 105 year old revolver chambered in a cartridge that was obsolete almost before SAAMI even existed. Yet have hunted deer the past 6 years with various AR chamber in cartridges created on or after 2008. I like the old tech and I like the new tech and I am happy to mix the two to achieve what I like/need and don't sweat the clash of eras.

I'm the same way - hunting boar with a Marlin 336 in .35Rem with a Ruger Blackhawk .357Mag holstered in a ballistic nylon holster on a ballistic nylon belt... Shooting lead out of both.

I like it that way and agree - use what works for you and please teach the newbs the same thing. I see newby questions all the time here and elsewhere that all basically boil down to, "I've never seen a real gun before but now decided to buy one - so should I get a Glock 40, Canick TP-9 or a S&W Shield...?" Back in my motorcycle days I got questions about, "Should my first bike be a Suzuki Hayabusa or a BMW K-bike...?" Advice to start with a 350 or 250 and learn the basics of riding was shut down by "the experts." It's sad to see it happening all over again.

 

[Tallball]

The local big box store is finally starting to have some ammo some of the time.

They have 223, 22lr, 9mm, and 40 caliber. Maybe not all at once, but that's what they might have if you walk in at the right time.

I reckon it'll be a while before they'll have any 357 sig.

 

[Mike J]

A couple of years ago I was wanting a new pistol. I have always liked 40 in a mid to full sized carry pistol. There are less manufacturers making 40 caliber pistols now but I still bought one. Before the pandemic there were deals to be had.. Many times the .40 caliber version of a new gun was available much cheaper than the 9mm version. Of course there were LEO trade in 40's everywhere. I don't know if we will ever see all that again or not. 40 ammo is becoming available again. It just takes a little digging. The cartridge may be in decline popularity wise but it is still as effective as it ever was & I intend to keep using it.
Of course 9mm & .45 still have their purposes too.

 

[mcb]

Clearly we need to make this thread a picture thread to save both the thread and the 40S&W.

BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!



Right Side: XD-40's in all three sizes. The top XD-40 Tactical is my USPSA Limted-10 gun. The middle XD-40 Service was my first semi-auto handgun ever and got me into USPSA, it now serves duty in the night stand safe. The bottom XD-40 Sub-Compact was my CCW when I was shooting the other two XD's in competitions. Left Side: Top Remington R1 Limited, as the name implies this is my USPSA Limited gun. Bottom S&W 610 gets honorary mention here as it's technically chamber in 10mm Auto but it has had probably two order of magnitude more 40S&W fired through it as my USPSA Revolver than 10mm Auto as woods/hunting gun.

 

[cfullgraf]

When 40 S&W hit the market, I indulged. I bought a Beretta 96 and later a Springfield P9C Sub compact. The Beretta is a good pistol but just too big (the 96 swore me off aquiring a 92).

The P9C is too small in my opinion for 40 S&W. Recoil is fairly sharp and the gun shoots itself to pieces. The P9C is about the only gun I’ve sold to get it out of my misery.

A few years ago I bought two Sig 1911’s, one in 40 S&W and the other in 357 Sig. Both guns are pleasant to shoot and are accurate. Both have made me happier shooting those cartridges.

So, I feel 40 S&W and 357 Sig suffer popularity some from the decision to upgrade a 9mm design as opposed to a purpose built pistol or a downsized 45 calber designed pistol.

I feel both 40 S&W and 357 Sig will endure at least for the forseeable future.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I own a bunch of 9mm firearms-----but I do also own a .40 and a .45.

 

[Slamfire]

I can only gauge the popularity of a round by the number of fired cases I pick up at the range. There must be 50 9mm to every 40 S&W. And at least ten 40 S&W to any other. I think the 45 ACP is the third most common, but they are rare. Fired brass does not last long in the recycle cans, or on the ground.

I wish I had kept all those coffee cans full of 38 Specials that I picked up. Its not that 38 Specials are rare, its that shooters firing 38 Specials are rare.

those were the days

 

[mcb]

I can only gauge the popularity of a round by the number of fired cases I pick up at the range. There must be 50 9mm to every 40 S&W. And at least ten 40 S&W to any other. I think the 45 ACP is the third most common, but they are rare. Fired brass does not last long in the recycle cans, or on the ground.

I wish I had kept all those coffee cans full of 38 Specials that I picked up. Its not that 38 Specials are rare, its that shooters firing 38 Specials are rare.

those were the days

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Go to a range that regularly host USPSA matches and the ratios of 40 S&W to 9mm will probably be close to one to one. Just don't shoot any of the 9mm you find laying on the ground.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Go to a range that regularly host USPSA matches and the ratios of 40 S&W to 9mm will probably be close to one to one. Just don't shoot any of the 9mm you find laying on the ground.

Is .38Super still competitive? I seem to recall that round was declared deprecated back in the late 80's when the WunderNINEs started appearing.

 

[mrmike7189]

My favorite 40 is: a Ruger Pistol Carbine , aka the "Police carbine/PC4." takes Ruger pistol mags. Great plinking gun, home defense, tactical & extra killy.
Many LEO carried these in patrol cars before AR15's became the norm.

 

[mavracer]

More penetration would not be desirable.

The .40 will not match the 9 in terms of rapidity of controlled fire to maximize the likelihood of effective hits.

More penetration coupled with greater expansion is most certainly desired.
In a well designed full size duty pistol shooting ammunition that mimics the power of the better SD ammo I find the difference in splits negligible.
The problem with absolutes is they 're almost never absolute.

 

[mavracer]

Is .38Super still competitive? I seem to recall that round was declared deprecated back in the late 80's when the WunderNINEs started appearing.

Not so much since they changed the rules several years ago in limited you have to have a 40 to make major and in open the lowered the power factor so you can make it pretty easy with 9x19 (in a compensated fully supported chamber open gun)

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Not so much since they changed the rules several years ago in limited you have to have a 40 to make major and in open the lowered the power factor so you can make it pretty easy with 9x19 (in a compensated fully supported chamber open gun)

Well, is the general consensus among competitive shooters positive on the .38 Super being x-d out? If the rules-making committees follow the FBI's lead and change the rules again to make the 9mm more competitive as a "major pf" round, or eliminate the benefits of shooting major pf, will it most likely "kill" the .40S&W in USPSA or IDPA in competition?

I'm not a competitive shooter so I really don't know. Just curious about how that end of the sport operates.

 

[mavracer]

Well, is the general consensus among competitive shooters positive on the .38 Super being x-d out? If the rules-making committees follow the FBI's lead and change the rules again to make the 9mm more competitive as a "major pf" round, or eliminate the benefits of shooting major pf, will it most likely "kill" the .40S&W in USPSA or IDPA in competition?

I'm not a competitive shooter so I really don't know. Just curious about how that end of the sport operates.

Those changes IIRC were made in the mid to late 90s. From a lowly competitor of that time IMHO the rule changes were directed at safety making a 170 PF with a 9X19 case is a very dangerous game.
Now like I said I'm just a guy who shot local competition with some very good shooters, I dont know that there couldnt have been some influence from the industry.

 

[mcb]

Is .38Super still competitive? I seem to recall that round was declared deprecated back in the late 80's when the WunderNINEs started appearing.

When they reduced Major Power Factor to 165 it allowed the Open guys to get to Major with 9x19mm the 38 Super and 38 Super Comp guns started fading away. There are still shooting 38 Super Comp in Open but I would bet that most Open shooters are using 9x19mm now. The 2020 Open National Match the ratio was 2 to 1 9x19 vs 38 Super Comp.

 

[Kleanbore]

More penetration coupled with greater expansion is most certainly desired.

Penetration that exceeds the specified maxima would, generally speaking, not be desirable.

More expansion would likely provide some benefit, but it would require more mass.

In a well designed full size duty pistol shooting ammunition that mimics the power of the better SD ammo I find the difference in splits negligible.

What you find and what has proved most advantageous in most defensive combat, real and simulated, are not the same thing.

The problem with absolutes is they 're almost never absolute.

That is true.

Two rounds fired in one second may suffice in one incident, and five may be required in the next.

it becomes a matter of chance, and statistical distribution.

In any event, extremely high performance premium grade ammunition is now available for the 9 and for the .40, and the former is winning in the race for market share.

I do not believe the .40 is anywhere near the end of its run, however. Competition and guns that exist will keep it going.

If my walks with the dog and/or to the mail box took me out where big, fast, furry omnivores roam with their young, I'm pretty sure that I would choose something different from a 9.

 

[mavracer]

expansion would likely provide some benefit, but it would require more mass.

Hence the benefit of the 40 S&W's greater mass.

What you find and what has proved most advantageous in most defensive combat, real and simulated, are not the same thing.

Well I don't know any other way that your going to get more hits on a target unless you think you can shoot a 9mm faster/ more accurate than a 40 on the clock(whatever clock that may be) if that's the case then my performance on the clock shooting both is exactly the same thing.
Now if you meant something else I got nothing.

 

[Kleanbore]

Hence the benefit of the 40 S&W's greater mass.

The discussion was about how the .40 might be further improved, not the difference between the 9 and the .40.

Well I don't know any other way that your going to get more hits on a target unless you think you can shoot a 9mm faster/ more accurate than a 40 on the clock(whatever clock that may be) if that's the case then my performance on the clock shooting both is exactly the same thing

What I might think I can so is not the point. Most people can shoot a 9 more rapidly than a .40 of similar weight, and that is of course why they can score more hits in the same amount of time.

... my performance on the clock shooting both is exactly the same thing

If you say so.

That would certainly be possible for someone who fires neither firearm very rapidly, but when one shoots more rapidly, the gun that has more recoil will move more upon firing, and that will result result in a difference in the time needed to return to target..

 

[mcb]

The discussion was about how the .40 might be further improved, not the difference between the 9 and the .40.

What I might think I can so is not the point. Most people can shoot a 9 more rapidly than a .40 of similar weight, and that is of course why they can score more hits in the same amount of time.

If you say so.

That would certainly be possible for someone who fires neither firearm very rapidly, but when one shoots more rapidly, the gun that has more recoil will move more upon firing, and that will result result in a difference in the time needed to return to target..

But you need to also stipulate that you are talking about handguns of similar action and weight. I can shoot a 9mm faster than a 40 S&W in similar full size handguns but the differences are measured in very low .01 seconds in most shooting situations. If I was to compare my splits between a sub-compact 9mm and a full size 40 S&W the 40 S&W splits will be faster. For that matter I can shoot most of the 40S&W pictured up thread (including the revolver) considerable faster than my little pocket 380. It may be true most can shoot 9mm faster than 40S&W but only if comparing similar guns, the differences in recoil though real can be trumped by weight and size fairly easily.

 

[Kleanbore]

Yes, of course. I did mention weight, and grip, barrel length, and bore axis could all have some effect.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Well, when we're talking about product platform popularity and market forces, we're not really talking about practicality or what's in the field already - except in the sense that a large post-sales market will drive accessory, ammo and component production for varying time periods. Popularity is a matter of the spirit of the times - Zeitgeist - what new buyers are demanding and what the industry is willing to provide. If you look at a supply-n-demand curve, you'll see the natural state for all production is to start out very small, build to a peak, then fall off to a steady state or decline into obscurity, ending the product line. In most cases, the end of one product line results in the creation of a new, related, and often identical new product. As an example, I haven't really researched the sales and distribution figures for the Springfield Hellcat but I don't have to know a few things: First, once that market segment is saturated, it is an absolute certainty that sales of that product will fall off; Second, and this has more to do with media than marketing, some less-than-honest people in the industry press whose opinions make it into the community proper will declare the platform "dead" because it is "in decline."

I guess how informative or relevant those opinions, and the accompanying "data," are depends on how much you want to be told what to think versus how much what other people think just don't matter to you. But whether you or me or JimmyJoBob down the holler cares or don't won't effect the markets from creating new product and extinguishing old product in order to A) sell guns and ammo; and B) sell media advertising.

 

[Kleanbore]

Well, when we're talking about product platform popularity and market forces, we're not really talking about practicality or what's in the field already - except in the sense that a large post-sales market will drive accessory, ammo and component production for varying time periods.

That "sense" is a significant part of the answer.