Is the combat shotgun obsolete?

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zinj

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I'm sure we have all heard the tales of how the Winchester Model 12 and 97 were the weapons most feared by the Germans in the trenches of WWI.

Have nearly ninety years of technological innovation rendered the combat shotgun ineffective? Buckshot and slugs cannot penetrate modern body armor (although they still might break a rib), and the firearms themselves still are limited to low magazine capacties for the most part. Hell, the M1014 was the first semi-automatic shotgun issued to the U.S. military since WWII!

It seems like the only effective uses for a shotgun are breaching duties and the deployment of less than lethal munitions. Are combat shotguns an anarchonism, or is there a valid use for them in today's conflicts?
 
Obsolete or not, a lot of people will get the smeg out of the way of a shotgun, pretty much no matter what.
 
I think they have a lot of life left.

The armor issue is a non issue. A guy is a lot worse off in the short term with a load of buckshot stopped by armor than a tiny little hole punched straight through.

I personally know of 2 SWAT members who were hit with buckhot, and 1 with a slug, all while wearing their full gear. None recieved permanent injury, but 2 were rendered unconscious and all 3 were hospitalized. All three were completely out of the fight. Think broken ribs, collapsed lungs, etc.

My friends coming home from the sandbox say that most of the fighting is done between 25 and 50 yards, well inside the effective range of a shotgun.

The only drawbacks I see is the lack of magazine capacity, the weight of the ammo, and of course, the inability to engage at extended ranges, which is rather moot in many instances.

JMO
 
The shotgun, despite its handicaps, is still the most versatile weapon out there. You can hunt just about anything with it, from birds to bears, with just a change in choke and ammo. In LE applications, you have door breaching, less-lethal, and lethal force with just a change in ammo. For home defense, at HD distances, its hard to beat buckshot terms of stopping power (or the pucker factor).

Obsolete? No. Its far too versatile, and far too common. If a memeber her doesnt own a 12 gauge, I bet he or she knows someone who does. I'd bet that everyone knows someone who does, regarless of their membership status here.

Also, AFAIK, soft body armor doesnt do too well against a 12 gauge slug.
 
Also, AFAIK, soft body armor doesnt do too well against a 12 gauge slug.

From what I have seen, the 12ga slug typically wont penatrate soft body armor. However, just because it didn't exit the vest, doesn't mean it wasn't leathal. From what I have seen, it would likely be that the slug pushed the vest through your chest and to your spine :eek:. Kind of like being hit by a mack truck. The truck wouldn't penatrate the vest, but your still going to be killed from the force.
 
ummm....something else nobody has mentioned yet:
Unless we were going up against a highly trained and funded Western style army, who is wearing body armor?
Chances of coming up against an Iraqi soldier wearing body armor? not very likely.
 
Re the original question, if there's still a use for them today: I think so. (Hope so, since I might have to rely on one someday.)

Since the thread is sliding toward the topic of body armor: "Phillips and Matasareanu." I don't know if LAPD had anything but buckshot for theirs in '97, but maybe some solid slug hits would have ended that event a little earlier.
From what I've read, Phillips was hit by buckshot, but unaffected by it. He did narrowly avoid being hit in the head by one load of 00, though. If I remember correctly, Matasareanu wasn't wearing armor on his legs, so double-aught might've immobilized him, too.
It's all "20/20 hindsight" now, and moot because some LAPD patrol units will be carrying rifles, but it's something to consider. I know I'd hate to be hit by anything from the muzzle of a 12 gauge, even if I had on Class IV armor.

One reader's opinion . . .
 
Isn't the military developing a HE round for shotguns?

Basically the distance of a slug but a whole lot more power without a whole lot more recoil.

It will never be in every soldier's hands but they will be around. I have noticed that in every war America has been in they have returned from storage. I think now it could be reinvented as the weapon to use rather than the HK superweapon that seems to be permantly stuck in "5-10 years from now it will hit the field." Buckshot for up close and HE for far away. If they could put the "smart" technology into a standard shotgun to do the same fusing tricks the HK can supposedly do it would do the same thing at a far lower cost.
 
Well Zinj, how many of our enemies are wearing body armor? Let's see now, kevlar has been around since the 70s for use in body armor. Would shotguns have worked in Grenada, Panama, and Somalia? Oh hell yes. How about in Afghanistan? Yep. How about in Iraq? Sure enough.

If body armor is the limiting factor that determines if a gun is obsolete, then why do so many of our troops still have sidearms?

Since AP armor is out there, isn't even hard body armor obsolete?

Like El Tejon said, tools with purposes...
 
If body armor is the limiting factor that determines if a gun is obsolete, then why do so many of our troops still have sidearms?

well hitting a soft vest with a 357 is equal to being hit with a major league baseball 90mph fast ball ( or something like that) so i imagine a load of shot or a slug would be more than enough to crush ribs ect. dont forget, traditionaly wounding and enemy could be more benificial than killing him. a wounded man slows his comrades down, requires medical personel and supplies. how applicable that is to a suicidal enemy, i donno, its just history
 
My friends coming home from the sandbox say that most of the fighting is done between 25 and 50 yards, well inside the effective range of a shotgun.
i can atest to that, you are right. unless it is some coward with a rigged up ied who is far enough away not to get hurt, but they don't want to come out and play with the big boys. darn!:D
 
Ever play ninja when no one was home, I know a bunch of ppl here do, I cant say I ever have :rolleyes: . Anyway, with the shotgun you just feel so much better.

Not to mention a shotgun with a hand full of slugs, 3 hand fulls of buck and a case of 6-8 shot is the ultimate multi-tool.
 
I'm not a wound ballistics expert, but I am pretty sure that shotguns at close range have a one-shot-stop statistic that is rivalled only by diesel locomotives. Couple that with utter reliability and a dead-simple manual of arms and I think the 12 guage shotgun will always have a role to play in home defense and other close-quarters work.

Add in the existance of frangible, breaching, less-lethal and explosive (in the future) rounds and I think that only solidifies the case.

Mike
 
I am sure that future combat weapons or tactics will try to take advantage of the shotguns tremendous stopping power. It does seem to have fallen out of favor slightly, even with the police, but I am sure that it will only take a few "realizations" to change all of that.
 
The conventional military has only a passing interest in shotguns, as it does in pistols. But as with pistols, some troops really like having a shotgun handy.

Do keep in mind however that not all combat is regular army versus regular army, especially in these days where 4th Generation Warfare is a term familiar to more and more people. Not all outfits who will be engaged in combat in this new age of conflict will be run by stiffnecked star-bearing primadonnas who are better at politics than fighting- or at leading fighters.

With those thoughts in mind, take a journey back to one of the old 101 threads at
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139444 , and bone up on what role shotguns may well have if things get really interesting here it home. And while you're at it, surf on over to http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm and http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/4gw_continued.htm , and dig some more. Hang around the home page at http://www.d-n-i.net/ long enough to read some of William S. Lind's articles- he was one of several coauthors of the original article on 4GW that appeared in the _Marine Corps Gazette_ in 1989. You can find that article at http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/4th_gen_war_gazette.htm if you'd like to start at the beginning.

I spent a lot of years working at the school where Special Forces troops get their training and education. During that time I went along to play on several SFQC (Special Forces Qualification Course) graduation exercises, known as Robin Sage. Budding SF troops get handed a mission in the fictional Republic of Pineland (which looks suspiciously like parts of North Carolina), and a clutch of 'local' Gs (guerrilla trainees) to work with in accomplishing their mission. The Gs are actually clerks, bakers etc. from the 82d Abn Division or one of the leg units on post, but they play the role of local boys trying to throw off the yoke of an aggressive neighboring country- whose troops are usually role-played by frontline troops from the 82d.

While play of the problem dictated that GI small arms be issued, I can assure you that with the abundance of short range ambushes involved in operations of this sort, reliable repeating shotguns loaded with buckshot would be outstanding guerrilla weapons- inexpensive, simple, confidence building, easy to support.

And in a faraway place known as Malaya way back in the 1950s, the British Army demonstrated the utility of shotguns as counter-guerrilla weapons as well. SAS troops and others in Her Majesty's Army used Browning A-5s and some upstart newfangled pumpgun called a Remington 870 to good effect.

It might be that the DoD has little time for shotguns in its concept of modern warfare. But if the rubber ever hits the road here at home, I can guarantee there will be a lot of Home Guard unit members toting the family scattergun off to their backyard war. It's happened before after all...

lpl/nc
 
id hardly call the US militarys use of shotguns as a "passing interest" being they have been used in every major conflict since the revolutionary war ( load the musket with "buck and ball")
 
A couple things...

First, while I was never issued a shotgun, a Winchester 97 was a real comfort on guard duty at night. It had plenty of company in SEA, 1970. Most were not issued, but showed up through irregular channels.

I'm sure the same applies in the various theaters we're involved in.

As for combat effectiveness, it's still tops used within its range limits. Ask various GIS back from deployment and folks who dealt with Katrina's aftermath.

One cousin lives in Beaumont, Texas. He found his 1100 a real comfort on guard duty during that period.

As with all military expenses, one has to check the bottom line.A "Serious" shotgun can be employed for a couple hundred dollars. Two or three for the cost of an M4.

Shotguns will not replace rifles, but they will continue to augment them.
 
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