Shotguns in combat

[Diesel man]

Personally I will continue to prefer .72" bores over .22" or .30", and 437.5 grain projectiles over 55- 165 grain projectiles for the home defense role. And the heck with range and velocity arguments, because range is going to be short and velocity isn't going to matter that much at close range. In my case penetration is only the concern of whoever I have to shoot at, as there are no nearby neighbors.

Lee Lapin,You are close but its a .73 caliber bore but you are right about the grain calculations.Using 12 gauge slugs is like using a musket only that it has a improved bullet design shape,better ballistic coeficiant,and more accurate than the musket's big lead ball.I think of a shotgun as the modern musket which has many improvements over the 1600-1800s era muskets.Muskets are still cool in a historical sense but would take a pump shotgun any day even a double barrel shotgun.

 

[Hoppy590]

So, like, M16s and M4s can't do that?

see http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm
specificly http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5_2.htm

That must be why the military has relegated them to special purpose use and why police departments are buying rifles and painting their shotguns orange and blue and just using them for less lethal applications.

a percieved failure of the shotgun isnt to blame. the over funded over militarization ( cant spell and dont care.) of american police and the general overkill used by the police are to blame for the demise of the shotgun. why give a cop a shotgun that has many applications when you can use tax payers money to buy Mp5's and train swat teams to serve parking tickets.

 

[Diesel man]

a percieved failure of the shotgun isnt to blame. the over funded over militarization ( cant spell and dont care.) of american police and the general overkill used by the police are to blame for the demise of the shotgun. why give a cop a shotgun that has many applications when you can use tax payers money to buy Mp5's and train swat teams to serve parking tickets.

Hoppy590,
I agree the shotgun fills the niche in most practical police situations.
Mp5 is silly when used for patrol and waste of alot of money in taxpayers dollars.
M4 carbines and M16s are enough for the police when they want medium to long range firepower when dire emergencies arrive.
However citizens should own whatever they want without any problems.

 

[hrgrisso]

Shotguns, Subguns, Machine Guns oh my!

As a HD tool the shotgun beats all if used properly. In response to Zoogs post about criminals using Body Armor. Maybe to rob banks where they no there is going to be a shootout. The day a home invader comes in wearing body armor into my house to rob me? Sorry, I'm not that loaded. Shotgun wins at home, especially without backup.

(no offense on police marksmanship, I'm just using my experiences since I've shared a local range with SO's, Highway Patrol, DEA, DHS, BP and other police departments)

At our range I have the priveledge of sharing a large outdoor range with all of the above mentioned LEO's. While many are quite proficient and a few very good shots. Many are disrespectful to begin with, let alone after they get outshot by a civvie...

Many are just plain BAD with their weapons. Unless it's a hostage situation, a shotgun may be a better tool for them. Their handgun sure isn't. Let alone those nice new AR's. In fact most don't keep it clean enough to run reliably.
I'm sorry, I have a Remington 870 Wingmaster that my brother and I bought for a hundred bucks. We're not cleaning it. We want to see how many rounds of varying types of ammo we can get through it before it stops functioning. Consider it a redneck gun test. Three years, at least 10000 rounds. Still runs smoothly. Perfect for a negligent individual.

As for Military. They are constantly playing catchup in an ever changing world. A buddy of mine got back from the sandbox, he said the only gun the "insurgents," i.e. terrorists fear is the guage. (I hear the same applies in south central LA...? Interesting).

It is interesting to note, that while a shotguns lethality diminishes with opponents in B/A. That very thing increases the lethality (tumble and yaw) of an AR/M4. When the Mil ammo doesn't tumble it just punches .22 caliber holes. B/A forces it to wiggle.

 

[357wheelgunner]

I'm not cool I guess, if things go bad I have a K-frame on my hip and a pump gun in my hands....

 

[El Tejon]

My carpenter got his first Purple Heart while armed with a shotgun in Vietnam. He just told me the story last weekend.

4 or 5 man recon team stumbled across his LP. He killed a couple with hand grenades, the others ran around the side of his hole. He emptied the shotgun into what turned out to be the side of a chicken coop! As they ran by my carpenter received a pistol bullet in the backside (probably from an smg) for his trouble.

25 ID. He was drafted off the farm at 18 and said he was familiar with the shotgun, but really preferred the radio.

My maternal grandfather told me that he saw shotguns used in the Pacific (Saipan and Okinawa). However he was a BAR man and never used one.

 

[gazpacho]

FWIW, using my Saiga-12 with a 10rd magazine and 12 pellet OOBuck, I can keep all 10 rounds on target in under 5 seconds. That gives me a comparitive rate of fire of 1,440 rounds per minute. 12 pellet OOBuck also makes head shots easier.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I was at the JFK today(its being decommisioned) in Boston. There were a whole lot of soldiers carrying Mossbergs. The best thing was the M60's they had onboard the ship incase they had a "runner" ship pass the death line.

 

[AStone]

define: combat

My personal usage of the term:
"Combat, or fighting, is purposeful conflict between one or more persons,
often involving violence and intended to establish dominance over the opposition."

E.g., some turkey breaks into my living space seeking dominance.

I intend to do combat with him.
(Yes, almost certainly a "him".)

 

[bad LT]

E.g., some turkey breaks into my living space seeking dominance.

The shotgun works pretty darn well for both types of turkeys

 

[AStone]

both types of turkeys

As one may observe, the second type of turkey (by implication)
does not exist in significant densities in the Pac NW.

So, the turkey of which I speak remains predominantly (even if not exclusively)
of type I: Homo sapiens breaking in seeking domination.

(Otherwise, I gotta put on the longer barrel and dress up in extreme camo ,
and go sit in temperate rain forest during the cold damp of late autumn.


____________

Wolfram's rule 110: 6 - 8 lines of Mathematica.

 

[rudolf]

Shotguns were used in combat in situation where there was ONLY close comabt action. In trenches, in the jungle. They make sense there.
But normaly, war happens in a variety of ranges, so most soldiers have kalashnikovs instead of shotguns.

 

[ARTiger]

Just last summer at the gate to Pensacola NAS (was going to the Naval Aviation Museum) I was greeted my a Marine with an 870 pump. . . asked him about it and he said it's their standard issue for guard shack duty at this and other bases.

 

[swgunner]

check out the armory on any tin-can(destroyer or frigate) you will find more mossberg 500's than m-14, we dont have any puny overpowered .22. we also have quite a few m-60's. it works like this: m-14 top-side long range(outer end of kill-box) 60's and m2's for Cole type scenario, fire hose for boarders, internally shotguns, why because 1 round will clear a compartment, and a 9mm will go through a bulkhead or the hull. by military regulation you are responsible for every round fired, so if i shoot said intruder with 9mm it overpenetrates goes through bulkhead and wounds a shipmate, i go to court-matial for assault and attemted murder at the least. 12ga. no such problem

 

[AStone]

Shotguns were used in combat in situation where there was ONLY close combat action.

Um hmm.

Just to be obnoxiously redundant, for me, "combat" (the word used in the thread title) is defined as < 15 m.

I just don't care what your combat distance is.

100 m? 500 m? 1000 m? What ever.

When responding to a thread entitled, "Shotguns in combat",
I respond using a definition of "combat" relevant to me.

Again, that's defined as < 15 m.

YMMV. Good luck to you what ever your combat distance.

Just last summer at the gate to Pensacola NAS (was going to the Naval Aviation Museum) I was greeted my a Marine with an 870 pump. . . asked him about it and he said it's their standard issue for guard shack duty at this and other bases.

Let me see. I wonder why?

Oh, I'll bet I know: they're issued a shotgun to repel boarders at the gate.

Kind of like me: I just want to repel boarders in the studio.
If that happens, I'll call that "combat".

YMMV. Good luck to you what ever your combat distance.

 

[AStone]

Let's summarize page 2 (so far)

...the over funded over militarization ... of American police
and the general overkill used by the police are to blame for the demise of the shotgun.

...the only gun the "insurgents," i.e. terrorists fear is the guage.
(I hear the same applies in south central LA...? Interesting...)

I'm not cool I guess, if things go bad I have a [L-frame] on my [desktop]
and a pump gun [within three steps]...

I was at the JFK today(its being decommisioned) in Boston.
There were a whole lot of soldiers carrying Mossbergs.

"Combat, or fighting, is purposeful conflict between one or more persons,
often involving violence and intended to establish dominance over the opposition."

Just last summer at the gate to Pensacola NAS (was going to the Naval Aviation Museum)
I was greeted my a Marine with an 870 pump. . . asked him about it
and he said it's their standard issue for guard shack duty at this and other bases.

Bigga bada boom!

 

[mr..plow]

The navy uses the mossberg m590A1 and a few others.They like the M590 becuase it has a heavier barrel and less prone to getting dented in tight quarters of the ships so ive been told.
Though, they are plenty of 870's and winchesters still in serivce.

If I was in Iraq I would prefer an M4 over shotgun due to faster followup rounds if needed.But my collection has plenty of room for my two M590a1's!

 

[Stretchman]

Head shots are ok for a shotty. But think about it. While wearing armor, the head isn't really all that exposed. Neck shroud, and a helmet? With the spread of shotty rounds, you could very well miss.

But there are two rather large appendages that the human body normally perches on. Inside those two appendages are serious arteries. Not to mention that any well placed hip shot is going to put somebody down to the ground faster than you can snap your fingers. Also, the plus is that the rest of the round will probably stop in the ground.

So the basic summation is that if you are in a fire control situation and you are facing someone with armor, take his legs out. If you have a shotty, aim for his crotch. If you get off a clean shot you're virtually guaranteed a one shot stop without any incidental downrange casualties. And if you are facing a terrorist, you can probably bet that there aren't any explosives on his legs.
So a round may not set off an IED, or a suicide vest.

Even one pellet from a shotty is enough to ruin anyone's day. S&B 2.75 00 have 12 of them.

 

[roo_ster]

Howdy:

Body Armor
When I was paid by Uncle Sam, I encountered four different kinds of body armor.

First was the flack jacket. Not rated against any firearm round, but the errornet shows some knuckleheads shooting each other with .22LR & the jcaket stopping it. It was a "soft" armor, no rigid plates.

Second was the first level of what could be called a "bullet proof vest." Good against high-vel 9mm FMJ, .44mag, etc. Also "soft."

Third was a beefed-up version of the second, with the option of ceramic chest & back plates good against .762NATO FMJ (ceramic plates) or against any pistol round (soft portion).

Fourth was similar to the third, but the ceramic plates were good aganst 7.62NATO AP.

Why did I go to the trouble of expounding on the types I encountered? Well, with all this talk about the BGs wearing armor, I think we might want to get more specific. Just what BGs and just what sort of armor?

Also, we can assume the second-fourth sorts of armor proof against 00 buck, but what about the flack jacket?

If a plate is rated against 7.62NATO, I presume it will not be penetrated by 5.56NATO, giving it no advantage over buckshot vs the plates. Given that a COM shot is a no-go with 5.56mm and 00 buck, is it easier to make a non-COM shot on hip, upper thigh, or face with the shotgun or 5.56mm weapon?

In Iraq/Afgansistan, what proportion of the BGs are wearing armor? Of those wearing armor, what sort of armor?

Here at home, same question?

If we were to fight against some more developed power (say, the Chicom hordes) how much of the Chicom army is wearing body armor? How 'bout the Norks? Russkies? Belgians?


LEO Use/non-Use of Shotguns
I was under the impression that most of the push for going carbine over shotgun had to do with the influx of females into LE. The carbines (esp, 5.56mm) having less recoil.

Another factor being that LE was basically given surplus M16 rifles by uncle sam.

Last, some LE depts were actually interested in having a longer-range weapon.

The above is not Gospel and I would be more than happy for someone to provide accurate information.

 

[shark3-1]

Ask anyone with an 11x or 18x MOS what a shotgun is for.

 

[AStone]

Ask anyone with an 11x or 18x MOS what a shotgun is for.

OK, I'm down for that.

<ahem>

"Excuse me? Does anyone here have either 11X or 18X MOS training? If so, what is a shotgun for, please?"

 

[JohnL2]

I was told we had shotguns in the arms room but we never drew them and I never saw them. I was also told that the bayonets on them were absolutely wicked - like a foot long or so.
I don't doubt that we had them of course.
Don't forget that the M203 grenade launcher has a buckshot round. Used to clear rooms. Everything dies in the room when you use one.
I had a friend who bought a Winchester 1300 Defender and was going to take it with him if we deployed to combat. Fine close in weapon.

Here are some pics of some MOUT training from Army days.

I had a disposable camera out there and managed to hop up and snap a picture of the hallway before another platoon was just starting their run to clear it. That's the OC(oberserver/controller) and a company NCO at the end of the hallway. As you can see they also threw down some obstacles to help us with our morning stretch. Yes, someone is brandishing a SAW with MILES. That bitch was loud in that building even with blanks.

The building with OPFOR crawling all over it contained a stairwell in the middle of it that we had to fight our way up. It was nicknamed "The Stairway to Heavan" by us. I can't remember how many times the damn CO ran us up that thing but it was exhausting. That orange glow is a trip flare.
Here they come!

 

[shark3-1]

Just to illustrate my point, I got a couple of pictures from our deployment.

When we first deployed to Iraq, this is what the shotguns looked like:

They were too big for the only thing we used them for (breaching), so we had them modified to be what we actually needed. This included deleting the shoulder fire capability and adding a standoff device for better safety when breaching:
Needless to say, we didn't use them to clear rooms, devastate enemy at close range, do-all wonderweapon stuff, etc. THEY ARE FOR OPENING DOORS.

I'm not saying that the shotgun is a terrible choice for HD, I'm just setting the record strait regarding current military usage. The shotgun used in the defensive/offensive role has gone the way of the Dodo Bird as far as the Army is concerned. It is used by MP's in the crowd control role.

 

[Jeff White]

Thanks shark.

JohnL2 said;

Don't forget that the M203 grenade launcher has a buckshot round. Used to clear rooms. Everything dies in the room when you use one.

Did you ever actually fire one of these, or even see one fired? Or for that matter even see one that wasn't a picture in a manual?

They are ablut useless. The hi/lo pressure sysem of the handheld 40mm round doesn't get the shot up to a very high velocity. If they loaded that 40mm round to a velocity that would make the shot effective it would blow the M203 up.

Nem,
I was an 11B for 21 years and I'm currently involved with police tactical operations. The shotgun's day as a general purpose weapon has come and gone. That doesn't meant that you are not adequately armed to protect your home with one. It does mean that the police and the military have found weapons that fit their mission profile better.

Jeff

 

[Glockamolie]

I really wanted to add to the discussion, but Lee Lapin said everything I wanted to say. I just want it to be duly noted that I'd like to be added to the roster for the "Superannuated Last Ditch Hero Brigade", for when the enemy is doing a Normandy-style landing in Galveston.