Shotguns in combat
- Thread starter Slater
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"shark3-1:
Did y'all use demo for some of y'all's entries? The mass/volume of the little det cord, caps, & such looks to be more favorable than dragging around a shotgun just or that purpose."
Yes we used other breaching methods. Explosive breaches will almost always be more effective. However, shooting people with M82A1s is more effective than shooting them with an M4. In other words, sometimes the shotgun is the best tool, sometimes a water impulse charge is best, sometimes a haligan tool is best, and sometimes just your boot will be best. It is a tool in the toolbox.
Did y'all use demo for some of y'all's entries? The mass/volume of the little det cord, caps, & such looks to be more favorable than dragging around a shotgun just or that purpose."
Yes we used other breaching methods. Explosive breaches will almost always be more effective. However, shooting people with M82A1s is more effective than shooting them with an M4. In other words, sometimes the shotgun is the best tool, sometimes a water impulse charge is best, sometimes a haligan tool is best, and sometimes just your boot will be best. It is a tool in the toolbox.
Sistema1927
Member
Military usage of shotguns?
My Dad spent 69-70 in Vietnam toward the end of his 21 year military career. He was with Mac-V Intelligence, and traveled fairly extensively with ARVN troops. He left his M-16 in his wall locker, and carried a Model 12 cut down to about 14". He also traded some booze for a Browning Hi-Power from the Aussies. So, even though he wasn't a front line grunt (and certainly wasn't a REMF with those jump wings on his chest and the nature of the rest of his service) he found the shotgun to be rather comforting.
My Dad spent 69-70 in Vietnam toward the end of his 21 year military career. He was with Mac-V Intelligence, and traveled fairly extensively with ARVN troops. He left his M-16 in his wall locker, and carried a Model 12 cut down to about 14". He also traded some booze for a Browning Hi-Power from the Aussies. So, even though he wasn't a front line grunt (and certainly wasn't a REMF with those jump wings on his chest and the nature of the rest of his service) he found the shotgun to be rather comforting.
Gordon
Member
I MUST have served with your dad and prolly know him
They are mostly un-educated, macho buffoons who fear "novelty". They are said to be afraid of pistols too. AKs are all over and the way they shoot 'em (from the hip) and they way they are often shot back at (from the hip) is really ineffective. So, lots of experience with AKs not doing a whole lot. Little experience with pistols/shotguns.
I wonder if the are afraid of "Paveway" GBU-12s with cluster munitions...they should be!
As far as insurgents wearing body armor...I've never heard of it when I was in either theater...doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Not anything to base weapon selection on though. Here in A-stan a lot of security force guys have them, mostly with the pistol grip only so they can hurt their wrist while missing.
They don't have them for breaching...just 'cause. I saw one guy with a collapsable Spec Ops stock on his...that impressed me. He at least wanted to hit somethoing.If insurgents chose to wear body armor and they knew there were going up against US soldiers with rifles, they would go for level 3 or 4 body armor right off the bat or nothing at all. Level 4 body armor can block everything up to .30-06.
If body armor enters the equation most common rifle calibers are just as screwed as the shotgun.
If body armor enters the equation most common rifle calibers are just as screwed as the shotgun.
We have given the Iraqi police a lot of body armor over the last few years. It is pretty obvious anything shared with the police ends up in insurgent hands. Therefore it is safe to say body armor is accessible to those insurgents that can afford it.
As to what level of body armor, buckshot pellets are one of the first things stopped by the lowest levels of body armor. Since the lowest in common use, is 2a and will stop 9mm rounds, you can be sure it will stop shotgun buckshot. Buckshot is round, soft, and has a bad ballistic coefficient. It will penetrate worse than a bullet of similar power to a pellet because a bullet is pointed, and streamlined and often jacketed with harder metal adding to its penetrating capabilities, and the pellet is spherical and soft, easily deformed and absorbed by the body armor. Something sharper with the same energy penetrates better than something round and blunt, especialy something round blunt and soft.
So the lowest level of body armor will stop buckshot from penetrating. Yes the blunt trauma at close range would still be effective, but I would still not wish to rely on blunt trauma to stop someone armed and fanatical. At even mediocre distances that blunt force trauma will be severely reduced.
Slugs would be effective, and pointed sabots extremely effective, but the ammo is large and is not much different than smaller easier to carry rifle ammunition of a decent chambering. So the only advantage would be having a multi purpose, multiple ammunition type firearm at the expense of bulky ammo, and less ranged precision. As I said earlier if your not using shot in a shotgun, then your giving up the main advantage of a shotgun, and would be better served by a rifle in combat.
So it becomes more of a general purpose tool for uses other than combat to launch non standard projectiles, such as sintered rounds for doors, or shooting flares, shooting at vehicles traveling too close, and other forms of general military crowd control where killing something is not the goal, but immediate deterent is. They are also useful for guard duty, but then prisoners are not going to be wearing anything out of your control, so penetration is not such an issue.
The value of a shotgun has become pretty limited pretty fast on a modern battlefield. I still think shotguns are great for many uses, but in modern combat it is not an ideal firearm.
As to what level of body armor, buckshot pellets are one of the first things stopped by the lowest levels of body armor. Since the lowest in common use, is 2a and will stop 9mm rounds, you can be sure it will stop shotgun buckshot. Buckshot is round, soft, and has a bad ballistic coefficient. It will penetrate worse than a bullet of similar power to a pellet because a bullet is pointed, and streamlined and often jacketed with harder metal adding to its penetrating capabilities, and the pellet is spherical and soft, easily deformed and absorbed by the body armor. Something sharper with the same energy penetrates better than something round and blunt, especialy something round blunt and soft.
So the lowest level of body armor will stop buckshot from penetrating. Yes the blunt trauma at close range would still be effective, but I would still not wish to rely on blunt trauma to stop someone armed and fanatical. At even mediocre distances that blunt force trauma will be severely reduced.
Slugs would be effective, and pointed sabots extremely effective, but the ammo is large and is not much different than smaller easier to carry rifle ammunition of a decent chambering. So the only advantage would be having a multi purpose, multiple ammunition type firearm at the expense of bulky ammo, and less ranged precision. As I said earlier if your not using shot in a shotgun, then your giving up the main advantage of a shotgun, and would be better served by a rifle in combat.
So it becomes more of a general purpose tool for uses other than combat to launch non standard projectiles, such as sintered rounds for doors, or shooting flares, shooting at vehicles traveling too close, and other forms of general military crowd control where killing something is not the goal, but immediate deterent is. They are also useful for guard duty, but then prisoners are not going to be wearing anything out of your control, so penetration is not such an issue.
The value of a shotgun has become pretty limited pretty fast on a modern battlefield. I still think shotguns are great for many uses, but in modern combat it is not an ideal firearm.
Stretchman
member
Are you certain it's rated for shotguns? I don't know if it's designed to defeat 9 pellets simultaneously. Possible that more than a few will go through. Not to mention that the rate of force that the rounds are traveling individually is one heck of a load to put on a a vest. But I'm no expert on the type of vest they are using.
Blunt force trauma can kill.
Blunt force trauma can kill.
Yes I am sure it is rated for pellets. In fact they are considered one of the lowest possible penetrators stopped even by something rated to stop a .38 special. Since the shot opens up pretty quickly on short barreled combat shotguns, it is unlikely many buckshot rounds will be hitting the same area consistantly at anything besides contact range, and then the value is harder to factor. However they are still round. Something rated to stop a .38 special will stop a round shotgun pellet even easier. The pellet has far less mass, and is only going moderately faster. The energy and how much surface area it is spread over by being spherical will still make it penetrate far worse.
That is very innaccurate for the same reason it does not apply to police. Level 2a armor would be entirely comfortable and not hinder movement or guerrilla tactics much at all. However something rated to stop rifle rounds would severely impact thier ability to perform ...well I hate to call it a mission, but... It would not impede thier tactics whatsoever. So thinking all or nothing is not accurate. Even body armor not rated to stop a specific round will reduce its velocity, and even deflect or stop it at distances if the energy of the round has fallen into the range of something it can stop.
In fact here is a link for you that mentions specificly that it will stop 00 buckshot and most pistol rounds at lower ratings. These ratings are at contact range, so any distance will enhance the effectiveness, especialy against buckshot which slows rapdily in air due to poor ballistic coeffecient.
http://www.bulletproofme.com/Quick_Answers.shtml#1
Single pellets of buckshot must be judged not only on energy, but on shape. Just as a sharp knife will penetrate something with less force than a metal rod, a pointed bullet with all of its mass being applied to a front pointed surface applies more energy in a given area than a sphere where the surface area at impact is much greater proportional to its mass. That means the energy is spread out greater, giving even less penetration. So even a bullet of the same energy would penetrate better. However many bullets rated to be stopped by low levels of body armor have far greater energy than a single pellet, and unless multiple pellets strike the same area that is how it must be judged for penetration.
This is not as the wearer, but as the shooter. As the wearer you would want a greater margin of error and want something that would reliably stop it if multiple pellets did strike the same spot which could only happen at very close range, as well as decent blunt trauma protection. However as the shooter you cannot rely on that happening to stop a threat. Level 1 body armor will stop single 00 buck pellets, because it can stop .38 special rounds with more energy, and a better penetrating shape. So 2a, 2, and 3a should be even greater in effectiveness. Since the nature of a shotguns pellets at impact are too random for general rating, you rate a higher level than needed per pellet for that margin of error for when multiple pellets striking a spot. Also blunt trauma plays a factor. Blunt trauma however is not likely to stop a threat immediately even if it kills later. If you would not rely on a baseball bat to the chest stopping someone with a gun, then you shouldnt be willing to rely on blunt trauma to stop them from returning fire.
That is very innaccurate for the same reason it does not apply to police. Level 2a armor would be entirely comfortable and not hinder movement or guerrilla tactics much at all. However something rated to stop rifle rounds would severely impact thier ability to perform ...well I hate to call it a mission, but... It would not impede thier tactics whatsoever. So thinking all or nothing is not accurate. Even body armor not rated to stop a specific round will reduce its velocity, and even deflect or stop it at distances if the energy of the round has fallen into the range of something it can stop.
In fact here is a link for you that mentions specificly that it will stop 00 buckshot and most pistol rounds at lower ratings. These ratings are at contact range, so any distance will enhance the effectiveness, especialy against buckshot which slows rapdily in air due to poor ballistic coeffecient.
http://www.bulletproofme.com/Quick_Answers.shtml#1
Single pellets of buckshot must be judged not only on energy, but on shape. Just as a sharp knife will penetrate something with less force than a metal rod, a pointed bullet with all of its mass being applied to a front pointed surface applies more energy in a given area than a sphere where the surface area at impact is much greater proportional to its mass. That means the energy is spread out greater, giving even less penetration. So even a bullet of the same energy would penetrate better. However many bullets rated to be stopped by low levels of body armor have far greater energy than a single pellet, and unless multiple pellets strike the same area that is how it must be judged for penetration.
This is not as the wearer, but as the shooter. As the wearer you would want a greater margin of error and want something that would reliably stop it if multiple pellets did strike the same spot which could only happen at very close range, as well as decent blunt trauma protection. However as the shooter you cannot rely on that happening to stop a threat. Level 1 body armor will stop single 00 buck pellets, because it can stop .38 special rounds with more energy, and a better penetrating shape. So 2a, 2, and 3a should be even greater in effectiveness. Since the nature of a shotguns pellets at impact are too random for general rating, you rate a higher level than needed per pellet for that margin of error for when multiple pellets striking a spot. Also blunt trauma plays a factor. Blunt trauma however is not likely to stop a threat immediately even if it kills later. If you would not rely on a baseball bat to the chest stopping someone with a gun, then you shouldnt be willing to rely on blunt trauma to stop them from returning fire.
telomerase
Member
Full-power rifles with actual high-tech AP can still go through armor. IIRC even SS109 will go through Level 3.
To give credit where credit is due, shotguns with those small explosive rounds will go through more than any common rifle.
Professor K
Member
How about flechettes?
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