Shotguns in combat

[Slater]

This is excerpted from "Military Police" magazine:

The Winchester Model 97--firing a modern 12-gauge shell--with pump action; six-round magazine capacity; and short, 18-inch barrel was brought over by American military police and infantrymen and rapidly became known as the "trench sweeper." The infantryman breaking into a trench could sweep both sides of it (to the depth of a passageway) with multiple buckshot rounds. Once leaders understood the 50-meter range of this weapon, they employed it with skill. A soldier with a shotgun, exceptionally fast to pump and fire, could quickly suppress German trench assaults and clear suspicious dugouts with devastating effectiveness. Out of the trenches, the Model 97 cleared Germans out of farmhouses and buildings in French villages with equal effectiveness. On 27 September 1918, Sergeant Fred Lloyd, using a Model 97, advanced alone into a German-held village and began methodically clearing the village, rapidly pumping and firing the shotgun as he moved. He finally collapsed with exhaustion after flushing and routing thirty German soldiers. The combat shotgun had earned its place as an Army secondary weapon.


Is Sgt Lloyd's experience an isolated one in US Military history? Haven't read of anyone else using a shotgun to such effect and in such a circumstance.

 

[M2 Carbine]

My friend RedDawn (Glock Talk member) was Airborne in Vietnam in the late 60's.
On his first trip into Cambodia (when we said we weren't in Cambodia) he carried a M16. He said the first chance he got he dumped the M16 and carried a 12ga shotgun and M79 from then on.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The shotgun as a military combat weapon gets less preferred as first submachinegun and then assault rifles start to provide something comparable to its close range firepower while providing better long range performance.

I think if you look, you'll find a number of stories from WW1 and WW2 involving shotguns used by US forces, plus they had a resurgence of popularity in Vietnam. Now they're mostly just used for breaching.

 

[jlbraun]

I have read multiple stories of Saiga-12 semi-auto shotguns being used to great effect in the sandbox.

 

[Sniper X]

As ranges increase, the shotguns get more and more in-effective, but at shorter ranges, they are highly sought after.

 

[JShirley]

Pump shotguns are way faster than bolt-actions.

SMGs and assault rifles can address more targets in the same time, hold more ammunition, and several rounds of each can be carried for the bulk of a 12 gauge shell. Oh, yeah, and they're effective at further ranges, as well.

 

[Hoppy590]

the shotgun served in ever major american conflict from the revolution, to civil war, WW1 ,WW2, Vietnam, Gulf war, 1 gulf war 2. not to mention its used heavily by the military police.

the shotgun has always served the US. it is a distinctly american gun, much like the 6 shooter. and though it may not get the glory that its brother the rifle gets, its still pulling its weight and will continue to do so so long as doors need opening, crowds need controlling, and houses need clearing. if anything this is a high point in the military shotguns life. from ww1- recently the US military has employed one type of shot gun. the pump action. They began to expand thier horizons with the XM26 LSS, now they have the M1014

a SMG may clear a house better, but it cant breach a door, or deliver a less lethal round. its not nearly as impressive at crowd control. the Shotgun is a jack of all trades. it may not be IDEAL for any ONE use. but its over all versitility makes it better than an SMG in my eyes

aslo in WW1, the germans feared the shotgun so much, they tried to get it outlawed. and threatened execution of any soldier captured with the shotgun or its ammo

 

[Zoogster]

Shotguns are more effective at close range than most other things against an unarmored target. However in modern times even insurgents wear body armor, nevermind organized militaries which issue it standard. Buckshot has awful performance on body armor because it is round and not pointed, and does not have the energy and ballistic coefficient to penetrate. If you have to use slugs in a shotgun then your better served by a rifle or a compact firearm firing rifle rounds which are both smaller (so more can be carried) and have much better performance at a variety of ranges.

So a shotguns main advantage is gone when most modern combatants use body armor. If you cannot use shot in a shotgun, then your better served by something else.

All those stories of shotguns performing great in combat where in a time when soldiers did not use effective body armor.

However as a civilian it sure beats most available options for CQB home defense type purposes against unarmored criminals. You cannot legaly fire a 9 round burst from a select fire subgun (or if you can will get chewed up in court), but you can do something comparable with a shotgun. However I expect more and more criminals to be using body armor as time goes on as well. In fact incidents of criminals using body armor is quite high in the last couple years. It is no surprise though as people of all walks of life serve in the military, including gang members and future criminals (especialy now as they are making tons of exceptions due to high demand and low supply of fresh recruits), and after serving some tours wearing body armor you can be sure they will return to civilian life fully appreciating and promoting the use of body armor to others on both sides of the law who plan to be potentialy under fire.

So the effectiveness of the shotgun in both military combat and civilian defense is limited and is decreasing rapidly as more elements of the world employ body armor.

 

[jlbraun]

So a shotguns main advantage is gone when most modern combatants use body armor. If you cannot use shot in a shotgun, then your better served by something else.

Unless you have one of these. Meet the FRAG-12 shotgun slug. This is just the projectile, the cartridge is a standard 3" 12 ga.

They come in HE, AP, and fragmentation varieties.

 

[Zoogster]

Unless you have one of these. Meet the FRAG-12 shotgun slug. This is just the projectile, the cartridge is a standard 3" 12 ga.

Actualy no, I posted the exact same thing on a recent thread including the a PDF about the 3 varieties they come in, and the full auto shotguns, even mounted on vehicles utlizing computers and remotely controlled enabling the computer to be set to fire in whatever bursts or formations desired by the gunner from the safety of inside the vehicle. However after some research I must conclude:

They already use much more powerful rounds in rapid fire grenade launchers which is basicly what those rounds turn the 12 gauge into.

So any application you could use a miniature 18.5166 mm grenade (which is what a 12 gauge is) such as those, the 20mm and 40mm grenade launchers are more effective. They shoot a larger payload from better already in use weapon systems.

In fact the original 20mm shells were judged to be inneffective for the OICW system in taking enemy troops out of action with indirect fire, one of the reasons it was scrapped and turned into a new gun and 25mm grenade launcher independent of eachother. So 18.5mm grenades would likely be even worse right?

So the shotgun has seen its days numbered in modern combat, even though some innovative new designs have come to pass. Body armor defeats shot, and if your using anything besides shot in a shotgun your using something less than ideal for the role. The only solution for defeating light body armor is using flechette rounds like they do in "beehive" rounds. However the terminal ballistics of something shaped like a small nail creates marginal stopping power, and only becomes effective when used in amounts greater than a 12 gauge can hold, such as in artillery pieces and cannons.

Tanks however still fire a shell from the massive smoothbore main guns that is a whole bunch of shot. Talk about a powerful and effective shotgun! Those pellets will disable or kill any personel they come into contact with.

 

[mattw]

Didn't the 1897 trench guns have 20 inch barrels? Tisk, tisk, military police magazine...

 

[Gordon]

I carried an Ithaca 37 Riot my dad sent me purchased from LAPD. I scrounged the brass cased military 12ga. buck shot rounds that were around the larger ammo dumps I usually carried it IN ADDITION to a rifle while doing SPIKE missions with a LRRP unit in the Tri Border Areas. I was an Intelligence Sgt. 97B 4L80 working with the 3rd. Brigade of the 101st during the time when I carried it. It was VERY comforting , especially at night I shot at a few enemy, but am not sure of the results as we hauled butt- 5 guys against regiments doesn't leave room to hang out!

 

[toivo]

All those stories of shotguns performing great in combat where in a time when soldiers did not use effective body armor.

And when the adversary's main weapon was a bolt action rifle.

 

[Cosmoline]

All those stories of shotguns performing great in combat where in a time when soldiers did not use effective body armor.

They're still in use, you know.

 

[648E]

Indeed.

 

[Zoogster]

They're still in use, you know.

Indeed.

I would venture to say they have just not caught up with the times. Fighting against insurgents without a standardized loadout also slows adaption by troops.

Buckshot is worthless on body armor. Some insurgents, and most modern armies use decent quality body armor. This means the shotgun has lost much of its advantage. It is no longer reliable for decisively terminating a hostile threat in combat. That does not mean some people familiar with its reputation as a fearsome weapon against unarmored targets do not still choose to employ it.

If your reduced to using flechete rounds or a slug to combat body armor, then you might as well use a rifle cartridge.

If your using buckshot and you face someone wearing body armor then your in some serious trouble. The round lead pellets will be stopped more reliably by body armor than even handgun rounds of similar energy.

I repeat the shotgun's time has come. As body armor is more widely employed throughout the world its usefulness declines.

 

[AStone]

So the effectiveness of the shotgun in both military combat and civilian defense is limited and is decreasing rapidly as more elements of the world employ body armor.

I have yet to see facial armor.

Remember: shotguns are for up close and personal,
and are pointed, not aimed.

 

[Plumber576]

No mention of the Benelli M4?

 

[Cosmoline]

I would venture to say they have just not caught up with the times. Fighting against insurgents without a standardized loadout also slows adaption by troops.

First of all, what insurgents are using body armor? I've heard this from several people here, but nobody seems to be able to cite any authority for the assertion. Secondly, what makes you think the troops are using 12 ga shotguns because they don't have access to anything "better"? I could easily cut and paste hundreds of photos from the current theaters of operations featuring shotguns in use. They are exceedingly useful in breaching doors and close quarters combat and guarding prisoners. For all the yammering about how they're outdated, there just doesn't seem to be anything to replace them.

There seems to be a cadre of tech heads who are convinced, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that WWIII is still just around the corner and we've got to keep everybody armed with AP ammo to fight off these alleged hordes of armored, mechanized Chicoms (or whatever). Yet in war after war after war after war, from Vietnam to Somalia to Afghanistan to Iraq we're facing enemies who rely on speed and guerrilla tactics. They don't wear body armor, since it would make it far easier for us to spot them. They don't even wear uniforms. Against such foes, esp. at close quarters, a mossy 500 would be very comforting.

 

[Jeff White]

They are used almost exclusively as a breaching tool to blow off door hinges and locks. The other main use for them currently is to pepper civilian vehicles that get too close to convoys.

The fighting is still mostly done with M16s and M4s....

Jeff

 

[AStone]

They are used almost exclusively as a breaching tool to blow off door hinges and locks.

So, like, M16s and M4s can't do that?

OK, well, then, I'll take a shotgun.

If they'll take a lock off, up close and personal
- which is the only kind of "combat" I'll be involved in -
then I imagine it'll do the same for a face.

Good enough for me.

I'll take slugs & 00, please.

 

[Diesel man]

I agree with Nematocyst-870,if a guy is wearing body armor you shoot him where he is not wearing it the Head and face.If you dont know if hes wearing body armor you shoot him one time in the chest and if that doesent work the head.Shotguns are very usefull and the best close range man stoppers ever made and will serve for many generations to come.And besides the man wearing body armor will have a painfull bruise from the 00 buckshot and will most likely be distracted from the pain and shock then you can point for his head and plan if he is going to shoot you or not then its your life and death decision to pull the trigger again.Never underestimate Buckshot or any bullet for that matter even if body armor can stop it doesent mean its not usefull or cant kill.

 

[Jeff White]

Shotguns are very usefull and the best close range man stoppers ever made and will serve for many generations to come.

That must be why the military has relegated them to special purpose use and why police departments are buying rifles and painting their shotguns orange and blue and just using them for less lethal applications.

Jeff

 

[Fred Fuller]

When we go to war here in "The Homeland," and I get drafted into the Superannuated Last Ditch Hero Brigade, I'll break out an AR, M4gery or more likely one of the M1As, if I am not issued one by our ever-so-prepared goobermint betters.

Till then, the go-to defensive gun hereabouts is still an 18" 12 ga. 870. Yet again, the key word is DEFENSIVE. Fighting rifles or pistols have a role there too, for those who feel their carbine-fu or pistol-fu is more advanced than their shotgun-fu. Everyone should run what they feel best/most confident using to defend their own hearth and home.

Personally I will continue to prefer .72" bores over .22" or .30", and 437.5 grain projectiles over 55- 165 grain projectiles for the home defense role. And the heck with range and velocity arguments, because range is going to be short and velocity isn't going to matter that much at close range. In my case penetration is only the concern of whoever I have to shoot at, as there are no nearby neighbors.

And if some fool starts plinking at me from the property line a few hundred yards away, there's a loaded AR handy too. No one gun can really do it all. But I still want a shotgun for the halitosis-range stuff, thanks.

Anyone else feel free to choose whatever works best for you, but please let us get off this "X gun is best" schtick. Most ANY gun will do, if the SHOOTER will do. Concentrate on making yourself the best shooter/operator possible for whatever you choose to shoot, and worry less about the hardware and more about the software.

Rant off,

lpl/nc

 

[CWL]

I think what's been lost in this diiscussion is that Military use, LEO use, and civilian/HD uses for the shotgun are all different.

A shotgun for HD is really sufficient, but it may not be the right weapon for a soldier to clear a bunker, or for LEOs responding to a call. For the military, there is often a whole stick of alternatively armed people as back-up.

Three different applications for shotguns. They shouldn't be lumped together and judged as one.

As an individual and homeowner, I will stick with my 12ga. If in the field, I have carried other weaponry.