Is the Militia Appropriate for Our Time?

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I just find in interesting that many on this board are supportive of the concept of an unorganized/citizens' militia, yet are unwilling to join or form a group. Can someone help me out with this?
Finding enough people who are smart about a militia seems unworkable. With an intense gov't and social pressure against "militias", and enough bozos ready to screw things up from the inside, formally instantiating one seems not worth the effort.

Yes, in principle it's something we should all be actively doing and standing up for. Practically speaking, for most it will not go beyond forming a bunch of shooting buddies; formal arrangements would be made when needed.
 
I have been involved with my local militia group for nearly three years.

I don't speak for any other groups out there. As for us, we are not collectively racists, bigots, religious extremists, etc. Might some of our individual members hold any of those beliefs? I don't know, it doesn't come up in conversation. Everyone has their own beliefs and they are not the focus of our group.

Any paramilitary group that exists to promote racial or religious hatred has no business calling itself a militia.

We focus on field training, marksmanship, medical training, disaster preparedness, and emergency response.

For the record, we are not "playing army". So why the camo and evil black rifles? For the same reason the military uses them---THEY WORK! I suppose if pink bathrobes and bunny slippers were what worked, we might use that, too.

But to answer the original question of this thread, yes the militia is appropriate for our time. It's not just about running around in the woods with camo and guns.

It's about having the knowledge, experience and equipment to be prepared for almost any situation. Those are skills that never go out of date.
 
ctdonath said:
Finding enough people who are smart about a militia seems unworkable. With an intense gov't and social pressure against "militias", and enough bozos ready to screw things up from the inside, formally instantiating one seems not worth the effort.
How do you know? Is it purely speculation? Would you be opposed to forming a militia with other like-minded THR members?

If our goal is to form the "right" kind of militia, then it has to start somewhere, correct? Why not me? Why not you? Or should we do nothing, sit back, and let others do the work?

There's so much defeatism in this thread; I'm beginning to wonder if there's any hope for us. I mean, if you want something (in this case, an upstanding citizens' militia), it ain't gonna happen by doing nothing.

It's sad to say, but we were once a nation of doers. Today we are a nation of talkers. Instead of getting off our butts and doing something to make a change, we talk about it... :(
 
There are probably more "doers" here than you might think, ML, but many of them are probably afraid of being watchees. The fact is that we are living under an executive administration that has declared itself above the law as set forth in the Constitution of the United States. This is an administration that has publicly advocated the use of torture and has expressed a desire to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 in order to combat the flu. Neither of the past two presidents have shown such blatant disregard for the Constitution, and both have attacked and killed members of militia-type groups (Clinton=Waco, Bush I=Ruby Ridge). And both previous presidents were making an attempt to appear to abide by the Constitution. Bush II isn't even pretending; he's just running roughshod over the Constitution. It makes sense to me that today's doers would go to great length to create the appearance of being watchers.
 
Is the Militia Appropriate for Our Time?

Yes.

The benefits of a militia havent magicly dissapeared with the creation of the national guard.

Is a militia practical in our current times? Not really.

Needed?
Well, you dont 'need' that .357 until a guy pulls a knife on you, now do you?
 
Lobotomy Boy:

Your fears are completely unfounded.

I’ve been involved with a militia for three years. I have yet to see any evidence the Evil Federal Government is "watching" or trying to undermine us.

Try again.

Besides, even if your claims are legit, so what? I'm not afraid of the government.
 
The militia as defined in federal law is already formed. You are already in it. Nothing more needs to be done. In times of crisis you will step forward and volunteer your services.

Groups of armed people forming into military type organizations are not wanted nor needed. We have an organized militia it's already been defined in the same law that provides for the unorganized militia that you are a part of. If you want to be part of the organized militia, you can call 1-800-GO GUARD and speak to a recruiter.

The militia as provided for in federal law does not exist to be the final arbiter of what is constitutional and what isn't. It's not a check on the powers of the duly elected government. It's a part of that government. The part of the second amendment that is the check on an out of control governemnet is the line about the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The well regulated militia, i.e. trained and organized is the organized militia as provided for in the law...the National Guard.

Something like 28 states have laws making private paramilitary training illegal. I don't know if anyone has ever been prosecuted under one of the laws, but it would be interesting if they used the militia defense. That would probably settle the issue once and for all. Until then, if you want to be part of the organized militia, jin the guard, they pay well, and will give you the same training the regular Army gets.

Jeff
 
Is the Militia Appropriate for Our Time?

Of course it is. That is what helps us stay free and sets us apart from other goverments. Technology has changed, not people or human nature. The militia is an asset to the country and should be used more often.
 
ML, you have a lot more faith in the government than I have.

Here's a story that happened to a good friend of mine. He lived in the Black Hills of South Dakota, where he made and sold hand-crafted jewelry, and spent his free time hunting. He was a liberal hippy, but his best friend and hunting buddy was a conservative redneck. My friend had been involved with drugs while in college during the 1960s, but hadn't used any drug, including alcohol, in over a decade. His friend had never touched any illegal drugs in his life. They owned adjoining land, land a local gold mine wanted. They had been hunting turkeys and one night both of them had the doors of their homes kicked in by a team consisting of multiple law enforcement agencies, complete with television news crews. They were being targeted for running a poaching operation. The LEOs confiscated a number of legally tagged turkeys and the local news crews got footage of my friend and his buddy being hauled to jail in handcuffs. No charges were filed because they had done nothing wrong--they even got their turkeys back--but the local television station never covered that part of the story and from then on they were considered criminals in their community. My friend got scared, sold his property to the gold mine, and went back to college. His buddy held tough, and one day his door was once again kicked down by federal agents, this time DEA. Even though the guy was adamantly anti-drug, the DEA guys found a pound of cocaine behind the door panel of his pickup truck. When he relented and sold his land to the gold mine, the charges were dropped.

I believe that you could have the most well-meaning militia comprised of the most upstanding, unbigoted, law-abiding citizens in the U.S. Things could go along fine for years, but I believe that there is a distinct possibility that you could very well be providing your own spectacle on the evening news, under the headline: "ATF raids headquarters of paramilitary white supremicist organization--none survived."
 
In America we say "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". In China it is said that "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down".
I've always figured that it's best not to stick out until something needs poked.
Biker
 
Jeff White said:
The militia as defined in federal law is already formed. You are already in it. Nothing more needs to be done. In times of crisis you will step forward and volunteer your services.
Agree. But we're untrained. Yea, all of us here know how to shoot a gun. But we don't know how to move. And we don't know how to communicate. Don't you think we ought to be practicing these things - in group settings - before our services our needed?

Biker said:
In America we say "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". In China it is said that "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down".
I've always figured that it's best not to stick out until something needs poked.
Biker
I'm sure glad the minuntemen of 1775 didn't feel the same way. They trainined in the open. Up to three days a week. Despite the fact they were living under tyranny, they had no fear...
 
It's not about fear, Friend, it's about common sense today. I signed up for a war at 17. Nothing against militias at all, just my POV. If as and when the time comes, I'll be up and standing. No need to advertise.
Biker
 
The problem with the National Guard as "organized militia" is its tendancy (or perception thereof) to be the cannon fodder for overseas operations. What we need is another layer of organization, one focused on local/state defense exclusively: ready to act in defense inside our borders. I'd contend (disagreement suitable for another thread, not here) that there is a difference between repelling hostiles from our soil vs. hunting them down before they get here, and for most of us not choosing to actively engage in the latter, we are indeed willing to do the former. The Militia Act of 1792 addressed this, requiring the militia - to wit, able-bodied males - to equip themselves and participate in training, and requiring the gov't to provide suitable training ... all toward the purpose of internal defense, not external.
 
As referring to what a well regulated militia is.......

No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state.Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen. -- Richard Henry Lee

What well regulated meant by them did not mean "regulated by government."It meant a well disiplined,trained militia.I did not mean a army of armed computer nerds.Thus people who train and take their citizenship seriously are not nuts that "play army."There is nothing playful about it.Get off your butt and train if you take your freedom seriously.

Numerous quotes about what the militia is by our fore fathers:
http://www.famous-quote.net/quotes-militia.shtml
 
Hawkmoon said:
My sister lives in NH and because I know the MA State Guard includes people from NH, I have read up on y'all a bit. And I have to wonder what your legal status is. You have attached yourselves to the MA National Guard as a way of obtaining a degree of legitimacy that might be otherwise unavailable in your paranoid state. But what if we had a situation in which a true militia would be called upon to OPPOSE the established government? Would you folks fight the government, or would you go along with the National Guard and mobilize against your neighbors to put down the "insurrection"?

Hawkmoon,

I don't have the citation handy, but if you search THR for my previous posts, I've pointed it out before (I know, I'm being lazy). We're allowed to exist by MA state law or constitutional law - I forget which (it's late, I'm tired, and not thinking quite straight *grin*).

By law, we're organized to operate under the orders of the Governor of Massachusetts and The Adjutant General (TAG) of the National Guard. If I read the law right, TAG can disband us at any time he wishes. Thus, we are attached to the NG by law, not by our own doing.

Now, TAG has decided to use us to support the NG, so we are also attached by his office. Again, this is not our choice, but the choice of those in charge. Please don't take this to imply anything about what the choice of the MASG would be. I neither know the director very well, nor would it be appropriate for me to speak for him.

As far as individuals fighting a corrupt government, I cannot answer. That is not a question that has been brought up, and is not something that I plan to bring up. Fighting a corrupt government is a very personal decision, and I wouldn't pretend to be able to answer for any group, or for any individual other than myself.

Additionaly, I humbly refuse to answer for myself. I have not been in such a situation, and, while I hope to make the best decisions I can should the soap, ballot, and jury boxes fail, I cannot garuntee what I will do if the time comes (and I pray it never does).
 
Molon Labe said;
Yea, all of us here know how to shoot a gun. But we don't know how to move. And we don't know how to communicate. Don't you think we ought to be practicing these things - in group settings - before our services our needed?

If you want to get training, you can enlist in the Oganized Militia the National Guard. You will get the best training available, it will be free, in fact they will even pay you.

Federal law has established the Militia, the organized militia has training provided by the federal government, The unorganized militia has no provision in the law for it to be trained.

You need to face up to the fact that the days of the militia drilling on the village commons have been over with for almost 200 years. The NRA was formed after the civil war in order to promote civilian rifle practice because the average soldier didn't enter service with very much skill as a marksman.

ctdonath said;

The problem with the National Guard as "organized militia" is its tendancy (or perception thereof) to be the cannon fodder for overseas operations. What we need is another layer of organization, one focused on local/state defense exclusively: ready to act in defense inside our borders.

We already have it, with the various state guard forces. The problem is that no one really funds them. Right now during the GWOT we could make great use of these forces protecting our still (for the most part) unprotected infrastructure. Expanding those resources would have been the natural thing to do in the days after 11 September 2001. Yet no one wanted to discuss that. All of the states don't even have a state guard.

This article was on National Review Online:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-barnett091801.shtml
Saved by the Militia
Arming an army against terrorism.

By Randy E. Barnett is the Austin B. Fletcher Professor at Boston University and the author of The Structure of Liberty: Justice and the Rule of Law.
September 18, 2001 11:30 a.m.


well-regulated militia being essential to the security of a free state. . . ." The next time someone tells you that the militia referred to in the Second Amendment has been "superceded" by the National Guard, ask them who it was that prevented United Airlines Flight 93 from reaching its target. The National Guard? The regular Army? The D.C. Police Department? None of these had a presence on Flight 93 because, in a free society, professional law-enforcement and military personnel cannot be everywhere. Terrorists and criminals are well aware of this — indeed, they count on it. Who is everywhere? The people the Founders referred to as the "general militia." Cell-phone calls from the plane have now revealed that it was members of the general militia, not organized law enforcement, who successfully prevented Flight 93 from reaching its intended target at the cost of their own lives.

The characterization of these heroes as members of the militia is not just the opinion of one law professor. It is clearly stated in Federal statutes. Perhaps you will not believe me unless I quote Section 311 of US Code Title 10, entitled, "Militia: composition and classes" in its entirety (with emphases added):

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are —

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

This is not to score political points at a moment of great tragedy, though had the murderers on these four airplanes been armed with guns rather than knives, reminders of this fact would never end. Rather, that it was militia members who saved whatever was the terrorists' target — whether the White House or the Capitol — at the cost of their lives points in the direction of practical steps — in some cases the only practical steps — to reduce the damage cause by any future attacks.

An excellent beginning was provided by Dave Kopel and David Petteys in their NRO column "Making the Air Safe for Terror." Whether or not their specific recommendations are correct, they are too important to be ignored and they are not the only persons to reach similar conclusions about the need for effective self-defense. Refusing to discuss what measures really worked, what really failed, and what is likely to really work in future attacks — on airplanes and in other public spaces — for reasons of political correctness would be unconscionable. And we need to place this discussion in its larger constitutional context.

Asking all of us if we packed our own bags did not stop this attack. X-rays of all carry-on baggage did not stop this attack (though it may well have confined the attackers to using knives). And preventing us from using e-tickets or checking our bags at the street (for how long?) would neither have stopped this nor any future attack. All these new "security" proposals will merely inconvenience millions of citizens driving them away from air travel and seriously harming our economy and our freedom. As others have noted, it would be a victory for these murderers rather than an effective way to stop them in the future. A way around them will always be open to determined mass murderers. More importantly, none bear any relation to the attack that actually occurred on September 11th.

Ask yourself every time you hear a proposal for increased "security": Would have in any way have averted the disaster that actually happened? Will it avert a future suicide attack on the public by other new and different means? Any realistic response to what happened and is likely to happen in the future must acknowledge that, when the next moment of truth arrives in whatever form, calling 911 will not work. Training our youth to be helpless in the face of an attack, avoiding violence at all costs will not work. There will always be foreign and domestic wolves to prey on the sheep we raise. And the next attack is unlikely to take the same form as the ones we just experienced. We must adopt measures that promise some relief in circumstances we cannot now imagine.

Here is the cold hard fact of the matter that will be evaded and denied but which must never be forgotten in these discussions: Often — whether on an airplane, subway, cruise ship, or in a high school — only self defense by the "unorganized militia" will be available when domestic or foreign terrorists chose their next moment of murder. And here is the public-policy implication of this fact: It would be better if the militia were more prepared to act when it is needed.

If the general militia is now "unorganized" and neutered — if it is not well-regulated — whose fault is it? Article I of the Constitution gives Congress full power "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia." The Second Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights in large part because many feared that Congress would neglect the militia (as it has) and, Congress could not be forced by any constitutional provision to preserve the militia, the only practical means of ensuring its continued existed was to protect the right of individual militia members to keep and bear their own private arms. Nevertheless, it remains the responsibility of Congress to see to it that the general militia is "well-regulated."

A well-regulated militia does not require a draft or any compulsory training. Nor, as Alexander Hamilton recognized, need training be universal. "To attempt such a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable extent, would be unwise," he wrote in Federalist 29, "and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured." But Congress has the constitutional power to create training programs in effective self-defense including training in small arms — marksmanship, tactics, and gun safety — for any American citizen who volunteers. Any guess how many millions would take weapons training at government expense or even for a modest fee if generally offered?

Rather than provide for training and encouraging persons to be able to defend themselves — and to exercise their training responsibly — powerful lobbying groups have and will continue to advocate passivity and disarmament. The vociferous anti-self-defense, anti-gun crusaders of the past decades will not give up now. Instead they will shift our focus to restrictions on American liberties that will be ineffective against future attacks. Friday on Fox, Democratic Minority Leader Dick Gephart was asked whether additional means we have previously eschewed should be employed to capture and combat foreign terrorists. His reply was appalling. Now was the time, he replied, to consider adopting a national identity card and that we would have to consider how much information such "smart" cards would contain.

Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, however, Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. The Founders knew — and put in the form of a written guarantee — the proposition that the individual right to keep and bear arms was the principal means of preserving a militia that was "essential," in a free state, to provide personal and collective self-defense against criminals of all stripes, both domestic and foreign.

A renewed commitment to a well-regulated militia would not be a panacea for crime and terrorism, but neither will any other course of action now being recommended or adopted. We have long been told that, in a modern world, the militia is obsolete. Put aside the fact that the importance of the militia to a "the security of a free state" is hardwired into the text of the Constitution. The events of this week have shown that the militia is far from obsolete in a world where war is waged by cells as well as states. It is long past time we heeded the words of the Founders and end the systematic effort to disarm Americans. Now is also the time to consider what it would take in practical terms to well-regulate the now-unorganized militia, so no criminal will feel completely secure when confronting one or more of its members.
 
Attala_County said;

What well regulated meant by them did not mean "regulated by government."It meant a well disiplined,trained militia.I did not mean a army of armed computer nerds.Thus people who train and take their citizenship seriously are not nuts that "play army."There is nothing playful about it.Get off your butt and train if you take your freedom seriously.

In much of the country people who conduct paramilitary training are breaking the law.
http://www.adl.org/mwd/faq5.asp
States with Both Anti-Militia and Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws (7)

-Florida. FLA. STAT. ANN. ch. 870.06, 790.29.
-Georgia. GA. CODE ANN. ss 38-2-277, 16-11-150 to -152.
-Idaho. IDAHO CODE ss 46-802, 18-8101 to -8105.
-Illinois. ILL. REV. STAT. ch. 1805, para. 94-95.
-New York. N.Y. MIL. LAW s 240.
-North Carolina. N.C. GEN. STAT. ss 127A-151, 14-288.20.
-Rhode Island. R.I. GEN. LAWS ss 30-12-7, 11-55-1 to -3.


States with Anti-Militia Laws Only (17)

-Alabama. ALA. CODE s 31-2-125.
-Arizona. ARIZ. REV. STAT. ANN. s 26-123.
-Iowa. IOWA CODE s 29A.31.
-Kansas. KAN. STAT. ANN. s 48-203.
-Kentucky. KY. REV. STAT. ANN. s 38.440.
-Maine. ME. REV. STAT. ANN. tit. 37-B, s 342.2.
-Maryland. MD. CODE ANN. art. 65, s 35.
-Massachusetts. MASS. GEN. L. ch. 33, s 129-132.
-Minnesota. MINN. STAT. s 624.61.
-Mississippi. MISS. CODE ANN. $ 33-1-31.
-Nevada. NEV. REV. STAT. s 203-080.
-New Hampshire. N.H. REV. STAT. ANN. s 111:15.
-North Dakota. N.D. CENT. CODE s 37-01-21.
-Texas. TEX. GOV'T CODE ANN. s 431.010.
-Washington. WASH. REV. CODE s 38.40.120.
-West Virginia. W. VA. CODE s 15-1F-7.
-Wyoming. WYO. STAT. s 19-1-106.


States with Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws Only (17)

-Arkansas. ARK. CODE s 5-71-301 to -303.
-California. CAL. PENAL CODE s 11460.
-Colorado. COLO. REV. STAT. s 18-9-120.
-Connecticut. CONN. GEN. STAT. s 53-206b.
-Louisiana. LA. REV. STAT. ANN. s 117.1.
-Michigan. MICH. COMP. LAWS s 750.528a.
-Missouri. MO. REV. STAT. s 574.070.
-Montana. MONT. CODE ANN. s 45-8-109.
-Nebraska. NEB. REV. STAT. s 28-1480 to -1482.
-New Jersey. N.J. REV. STAT. s 2C:39-14.
-New Mexico. N.M. STAT. ANN. s 30-20A-1 to -4.
-Oklahoma. OKLA. STAT. ANN. tit. 21, s 1321.10.
-Oregon. OR. REV. STAT. s 166.660.
-Pennsylvania. 18 PA. CONS. STAT. s 5515.
-South Carolina. S.C. CODE ANN. s 16-8-10 to -30.
-Tennessee. TENN. CODE ANN. s 39-17-314.
-Virginia. VA. CODE ANN. s 18.2-433.1 to -433.3.

Laws limiting private armies and unauthorized militias were held to be constitutional by the US Supreme Court in 1886 in Presser v. Illinois:

In the 1886 case of Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 615. the U.S. Supreme Court found constitutional an Illinois law against unauthorized military organizations and unauthorized armed parading. In doing so, the Court discussed the First and Second Amendments.

A. Herman Presser was indicted in September, 1879 for violating the Illinois law that stated:

"It shall be unlawful for any body of men whatever, other than the regular organized volunteer militia [note all the qualifications - since the 1792 Uniform Militia Act was still the law], and the troops of the United States, to associate themselves together as a military company or organization or to drill or parade with arms in any city or town of this state, without the license of the Governor thereof, which license may at any time be revoked [goes on to exclude ceremonial wearing of swords, educational groups with consent of the Governor, etc.]"

At this time, under Illinois law those subject to militia duty were those defined in the 1792 Uniform Militia Act. However, as was common, only the regular organized volunteer militia served. It was limited by statute to 8,000 men and officers. The "license of the Governor" means that the Governor could grant permission to unauthorized groups.

Presser belonged to a private organization called Lehr und Wehr Verein, a corporation organized under Illinois law in 1875 for the purpose of "improving the mental and bodily condition of its members...Its members shall therefore obtain, in the meetings of the association, a knowledge of our laws and political economy, and shall also be instructed in military and gymnastics exercises."

"Presser,in December, 1879, did march at the head of said company, about 400 in number,in the streets of Chicago, he riding on horseback and in command; that the company was armed with rifles and Presser with a cavalry sword." [p.618]

The Court determined that the Illinois law was not made invalid by the federal militia laws.

Then the Court disposed of the Second Amendment argument by saying:

"We think it clear that the sections under consideration, which only forbid bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law, do not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms." [p.619]

The Court could have stopped there with its discussion of the Second Amendment and these laws. In fact, this statement means that the Second Amendment cannot be used against either federal or state anti-militia laws.

However, the Court then nails down the issue as far as state law is concerned. In 1879, the Court followed the the non-incorporation doctrine that held the restrictions of the Bill of Rights applicable to the federal government alone, not to the states. Nonincorporation has been abandoned for many of the rights under the Bill of Rights, but under current case law still applies to the Second Amendment.

The Court goes on:

"But a conclusive answer to the contention that this Amendment prohibits the legislation in question lies in the fact that the Amendment is a limitation only upon the power of Congress and the National Government, and not upon that of the States" ..." [p.619]

The next paragraph is often misinterpreted. The context is that Illinois must comply with federal law, in this case the 1792 Uniform Militia Act. The state cannot restrict the militia beyond the limits set by federal law. As the federal law changes, within its constitutional boundaries, the state law must also change. The issue is that the state (surprise, surprise) cannot interfere with the federal right to 'provide for the organizing, arming and disciplining' of the militia.

"It is undoubtedly true that all citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved military force or reserve militia of the United States as well as of the States; and, in view of this prerogative of of the General Government, as well as of its general powers, the States cannot, even laying aside the constitutional provision out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, so as to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security, and disable the people from performing their duty to the General Government. But, as already stated, we think it clear that the sections under consideration have no such effect." [p.619]

The Court also discussed the First Amendment, again in terms of the nonincorporation doctrine. That is, the only free speech issue for the Court dealt with the federal government. Since the Presser case, the First Amendment has been held to apply to the state governments. However, much the same language could be used to discuss whether this state law is valid when state laws must also meet the freedom of assembly test. Part of this passage, is quoted 100 years later in the Vietnamese Fisherman case.

"The only clause in the Constitution which, upon any pretense, could be said to have any relation whatever to his right to associate with others as a military company is found in the First Amendment, which declares that "Congress shall make no law ..abridging.. the right of the people peacably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances..." [p.619]

"The right voluntarily to associate together as a military company or organization, or to drill or parade with arms, without and independent of an Act of Congress or law of the State authorizing the same, is not an attribute of national citizenship. Military operation and military drill and parade under arms are subjects especially under the control of the government of every country. They cannot be claimed as a right independent of law. Under our political system they are subject to the regulation and control of the state and federal governments, acting in due regard to their respective prerogatives and powers. The Constitution and laws of the United States will be searched in vain for any support to the view that these rights are privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States independent of some specific legislation on the subject.

"It cannot be successfully questioned that the State governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions, have the power to regulate or prohibit associations and meetings of the people, except in the case of peaceable assemblies to perform the duties or exercise the privileges of citizens of the United States; and have also the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations, except when such bodies or associations are authorized by the militia laws of the United States. The exercise of this power by the State is necessary to the public peace, safety and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the State to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine." [pp 619-620]

The last paragraphs quoted make clear that the Court did not, as some have argued, deal only with 'unauthorized armed parading.' The Court was equally concerned and found equally valid the provisions dealing with 'unauthorized military company or organization.'

Here is the Illinois law:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...IVE+BRANCH&ActName=Military+Code+of+Illinois.
(20 ILCS 1805/94) (from Ch. 129, par. 220.94)
Sec. 94. It is unlawful for any body of men or women, other than the regularly organized militia of this State, troops of the United States, Grand Army posts, camps of the Sons of Veterans or organizations of veterans of the Spanish‑American War, Philippine Insurrection, World War I, World War II, or any future wars, dedicated to the welfare of the State and nation, to associate themselves together as a military company or organization, to drill or parade with arms in this State, except as hereinafter authorized; but, by and with the consent of the Governor, independent regiments, battalions or companies, organized for the purpose of recreation or to acquire military knowledge that may better enable them to serve the State in time of public peril, if such should arise, may associate themselves together as a military body or organization and may drill or parade with arms in public in this State, and students of educational institutions, where military drill is a part of the course of instructions, may, with the consent of the Governor, drill and parade with arms in public under command of their military instructors. Nothing herein contained shall be construed so as to prevent benevolent or social organizations from wearing swords. All military organizations in and by this Section permitted to drill and parade with arms, shall, on occasions of public parade, be required to carry the United States flag in addition to any private ensign which they may carry. The consent herein specified may be withdrawn at the pleasure of the Governor.
(Source: Laws 1957, p. 2141.)

(20 ILCS 1805/94a) (from Ch. 129, par. 220.94a)
Sec. 94a. (a) As used in this Section, unless the context clearly requires otherwise:
(1) "Civil disorder" means any public disturbance involving acts of violence by assemblages of 3 or more persons which causes an immediate danger of or results in damage or injury to any real or tangible property or person.
(2) "Firearm" means any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive; or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
(3) "Explosive or incendiary device" means (A) dynamite or any other form of high explosive, (B) any explosive bomb, grenade, missile or similar device, or (C) any incendiary bomb or grenade, fire bomb or similar device, including any device which (i) consists of or includes a breakable container including a flammable liquid or compound, and a wick composed of any material which, when ignited, is capable of igniting such flammable liquid or compound and (ii) can be carried or thrown by one individual acting alone.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to:
(1) Teach or demonstrate to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, incendiary device or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know and intending that same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or
(2) Assemble with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, incendiary device or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ unlawfully the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.
(c) Violation of subsection (b) of this Section is a Class 4 felony.
(d) Nothing contained in this Section makes unlawful any activity of:
(1) law enforcement officials of this or any other jurisdiction while engaged in the lawful performance of their official duties;
(2) federal officials required to carry firearms while engaged in the lawful performance of their official duties;
(3) members of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard while engaged in the lawful performance of their official duties;
(4) any game commission, fish commission or law enforcement agency (or any agency licensed to provide security services), or any hunting club, rifle club, rifle range, pistol range, shooting range or other organization or entity whose primary purpose is to teach the safe handling or use of firearms, archery equipment or other weapons or techniques employed in connection with lawful sporting or other lawful activity;
(5) any assembly for public historical re‑enactment purposes by a historic military re‑enactment group portraying events in military history presented for the purposes of public education and entertainment; provided that any participants utilize historically appropriate uniforms, weapons and accoutrements.
(Source: P.A. 86‑1370.)

(20 ILCS 1805/95) (from Ch. 129, par. 220.95)
Sec. 95.
Whoever offends against the provisions of the preceding Section or belongs to, or parades with, any such unauthorized body of men or women with arms shall be guilty of a Class B misdemeanor.
(Source: P. A. 77‑2609.)

I noticed that Mississippi also has an anti militia law. Do you know what is says?

Jeff
 
I am sitting here just shaking my head.

We, as a nation, are so screwed.

It is surreal that this discussion is even taking place on a
board that is supposed to be frequented by people that
are supporters of the American way of life.

Discussions like this really drive home the point that
there exist no hope of America ever returning
to its full glory.

Doomed I tell ya, doomed.
 
chas_martel said:
I am sitting here just shaking my head.

We, as a nation, are so screwed.

It is surreal that this discussion is even taking place on a
board that is supposed to be frequented by people that
are supporters of the American way of life.

Discussions like this really drive home the point that
there exist no hope of America ever returning
to its full glory.

Doomed I tell ya, doomed.


"Glory", come on...stop the madness...what are you talking about...are you talking about the "real" America or your biased opinion of what you have know America to be to you...YMMV our nation's history has been more full of less that desireable characters lives than we can shake a stick at...and to top it off, we hold some of them up to be our "heroes"....what can i say, people are people...despite your belief to the contrary...where you came from, what colore you are, what politicall affiliation or whatever else you want to set as a defining characteristic of an American....there will be some(people) who will stand out as examples of less than ideal representatives of what an American is thought to be by "popular"definition...that's my take and i'm sticking to it...:scrutiny:
 
You know, I'm fairly well stocked as far as rifles and ammo go. Got a good way to carry them too, along with miscellaneous other stuff. I even have a fair idea of how to use them should I ever need to.

I've got a vehicle, some maps, ham radio gear (and some knowledge there too, thanks), basic tools, fuel, food, and so forth.

I have these things because I think one of the things life teaches us is that you simply can't predict the future, and you need to be able to take care of yourself. "Be prepared" and all that.

When Katrina came around I was ready to move out for a few weeks and help out, though I found the Red Cross didn't have a real need for me. Those people like me that had enough connections to show up and help out? They're the "militia," though they don't have group standards and patches on their arms. When something had to be done, they stepped up and did it.

When people are needed -- even to fight tyrrany -- they'll show up. Whether they want some "general" to organize their PT and do land-nav training in the woods twice a year is a separate issue, entirely. Being ready to serve your community and nation is one thing; choosing to hang out with a bunch of folks you wouldn't normally give the time of day to and call yourselves a "militia" (while you make yourself a target for "the man") is another.
 
>are you talking about the "real" America or your
>biased opinion of what you have know

I am talking about the gun owning "Americans" on this post.........

It has been said that we can only be beat from within. It
is happening.
 
During the 1980's a communist group called "Shining Path" was raising hell in Peru.A large part of their agenda was terrorizing and murdering the indians.As a last ditch solution the US sent some pump shotguns. They organized themself into local patrols and fought back.At most maybe 20% had the guns and the rest machetes.The situation improved drastically as they F@&ked up their oppressors.
Rather than using the term "militias", I prefer "self defense forces".
 
chas_martel said:
>are you talking about the "real" America or your
>biased opinion of what you have know

I am talking about the gun owning "Americans" on this post.........

It has been said that we can only be beat from within. It
is happening.
It's very sad, but most gun owners have lost sight of the real reason we have a right to bear arms. Most are strictly hobbyists, and cannot be counted on to help defend their communities when the SHTF. When they get around to banning guns, these hobbyists will handover their guns without a fuss, and will quietly switch over to remote control helicopters to satisfy their penchant for tinkering with mechanical devices.

And then there are the gun-owning elitists, who believe the (federalized) National Guard is the One and True militia, and believe the idea of a citizens' militia is a rogue, illegitimate, and archaic concept. These elitists look down on us who are active in citizens' militias, and perceive us as being a bunch of fat, uneducated, lowbrow rednecks who do not possess their superior intellect and wisdom. These people are sorely in need of a history lesson.
 
A question for Molon Labe

You made good points in your post directly above. I agree with it. Now the question. Why do you spend time and effort chiding ones like me for not thinking of the militia the way you do (organized groups) instead of focusing on educating the fence sitters that an armed citizenry is good and necessary? Turning a soccer mom into a gun owner is more productive than trying to get me to do things your way.
 
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