Is the Militia Appropriate for Our Time?

[Molon Labe]

You made good points in your post directly above. I agree with it. Now the question. Why do you spend time and effort chiding ones like me for not thinking of the militia the way you do (organized groups) instead of focusing on educating the fence sitters that an armed citizenry is good and necessary? Turning a soccer mom into a gun owner is more productive than trying to get me to do things your way.

I apologize if my comments are coming across as abrasive, insulting, or confrontational; such is not my intention. But as an active member of a citizens' militia, it frustrates me to hear people discounting the important of something I am deeply passionate about.

 

[Jeff White]

molon labe said;

And then there are the gun-owning elitists, who believe the (federalized) National Guard is the One and True militia, and believe the idea of a citizens' militia is a rogue, illegitimate, and archaic concept. These elitists look down on us who are active in citizens' militias, and perceive us as being a bunch of fat, uneducated, lowbrow rednecks who do not possess their superior intellect and wisdom. These people are sorely in need of a history lesson.

The law is the law my friend. The constitution says that the militia exists and it's defined in federal law. If you want your citizen's militia to be recognized and legitimate, the way to go about it is to get your congress person to introduce and pass legislation changing the law to provide for training and utilization of the unorganized militia. Congress is charged with the responsibility of training and equipping the militia. There is your first talking point for your conversation with your congressman.

Until the law is changed, which dates back to 1903 BTW, way before anyone on the federal level even considered gun control, the militia exists only as defined in the US Code.

The militias as they exist today are no more then armed political parties. We don't use force of arms to promote our political agenda in the US. We are a nation governed by laws. Any so called militia group that operates outside the limits of the law is using arms to further their political agenda.

Historical examples of militias that are similar to the current militia movement in the US are: the SA and SS in Germany in the 1930s, various armed peoples militias throughout the free world promoting communism, the armed militias in Somalia, the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Black Panthers, the Black Gangster Disciples street gang....all of these groups sought to further their political beliefs using the fact that they were armed as an intimidation factor to increase their influence. Some were more successful then others.

But that's not the way political discourse is done in the United States. When the militia becomes interested in a political cause, and they publically take a stand, they are in essence holding a gun at the head of the government.

That isn't the purpose of a militia as defined in the constitution and in federal law.

I believe that there is a modern purpose for the militia in the homeland security area. However the powers that be don't agree. We should be concentrating on changing their minds.

The current militias with their extremist political agendas and their thinly veiled threats of violence if they are ignored are doing more to make the second amendment obsolete in the minds of the American public them any other group.

Jeff

 

[Molon Labe]

Jeff:

Thanks for the response.

It was very much against the law in 1775 to shoot at Redcoats. Now I'm curious about this... if you were living in Concord back then, would have you shot at the Redcoats as they marched back to Boston from Concord? Please don't beat around the bush... a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice, followed by an explanation.

(And yes, I know the militias were sanctioned by the towns back then. I just want to know if you would have been one of the minutemen who were illegally shooting at the Redcoats.)

 

[Jeff White]

Molon Labe,
No beating around the bush is required. I would have participated in the revolution. Yes I would have shot the British troops and become an outlaw. The situation was very different then. The colonists had little or no voice in their government.

That is not the case now. Anyone can have a voice in the government, all they have to do is choose to participate in it. The modern militias have removed themselves from the political process, preferring to advance their agenda by spreading fear then actually convincing anyone that theirs is the right path to take. We fought a revolution and a civil war to establish representative government and to maintain it.

The militia is part of the government. It's called for in the constitution and defined in US Code. It's not one of the checks on the government. Conceivably a mayor, county board chair or governor could call out the militia to move in and eliminate one of these unauthorized militias that was deemed to be a threat to public order. What would you do then? Are you ready to go to war against your neighbors?

The USSC ruled in 1886 in Presser v. Illinois that the states had the right to regulate the militia and prohibit private armies. It wasn't exactly a liberal court that made that decision.

As I said in my earlier post, when it's time to refresh the tree of liberty, the right people will step up and what needs to be done will be done. There is no need to worry about being trained up for it. There are still plenty of people fighting the way the founding fathers intended us to, by using the political process. By walking away from the political process and stockpiling guns and ammunition and training for the day when you can become a patriot and take the country back to the ideas you espouse, you're just marginalizing yourselves.

Get involved. Vote, join a political party, run for office....use the system that many good men died for. We are a long way from not having any representation.

Jeff

 

[Molon Labe]

Thank, Jeff.

It's apparent we both agree that, while observance of the law is important, there may come a time when the right thing to do is not follow the law.

There is no need to worry about being trained up for it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

[IndianaFF]

Confused

First, Im brand new to the site, was browsing and came across it. Im from Central IN, and a Vol. FF/EMT.

While I was reading this thread, it almost immediately became apparent that most of the posters in here keep talking about two different groups. there are the "freaks" (Aryan Nation, ect.) that are being thought of, as soon as someone mentions Militia. And then there are the everyday
law abiding civilians who are if need be, ready to take up arms in defense of their way of life and the Red,White, and Blue.

My brother is in the Militia, and due to him talking about it to me. I have been doing alot of browsing on the web, checking out some of the Militia web sites. Like alot of you, the first time my bro., mentioned the word Militia, my mind went to the Hollywood sterio-type of the neo-nazi groups and others.
but after listening to him and checking out the sites he gave me. They appear to be no different from us law abiding folks, other than they get together and train every month.
As I said before, I am a Firefighter, and as you may already know. We Train alot more than once a Month. There is no possible way to be able to willingly put your life in the hands of one who you never have worked with before,nor do you have the slightest clue as to their capabilities. And as a citizen living in the area, I would much rather have a ff come to my house and take care of the emergency whatever it may be; who trains all the time and is confident is his capabilities to handle the situation.

that being said. If I were in the militia, I would much rather train with 4 or 5 guys and all of us know and trust each other.
than to have SHTF, and have a whole community armed and standing behind me. I'd personally be more worried about being shot in the back, than I would from those we were fighting.

Respectfully
IndianaFF

 

[Attala_County]

My apolgies as well Jeff White.I believe you.Im just so used to defending my position on the militia that sometimes i get a little too defensive.My stance on the militia is that we should train and organize ourselves so we can be more effective in a situation where we need to be called up.Not as "private armies."But as the public army.

Sadly though ,i don't ever see the government calling the militia up unless there was a foreign invasion where the invaders crippled our armed forces enough to where the only way they could keep thier power is if they called the militia forth.I can't see the government ever calling the militia up to fight a tyrannical government they are a part of.Not necessarily saying that the government is tyrannical at this point and time,but since it is clear that the government will never call us up or train us as the real unorganized militia(not under goverment command unless called into service of the state)
.It is important that we merge our skills together and hone them to operating level.Lest the need ever be.

Second,i can never support the violent overthrow of the government unless under extreme conditions.Such as,civilian disarmament or living under a communist or fascist type regime.

Mr.Moore and some others didn't seem to get my point on that.I disrespect him for unneedingly reporting me to the FBI.He claims im a terrorist for holding the views stated above.Now that im thinking about it,i wonder how many other people he has reported on this thread and MS Militia thread.

My apologies all.

 

[yonderway]

Put it this way, what most Americans know about the militia, they learned from the same journalists that tought them about guns.

How often does the media get it right when talking about guns?

 

[Attala_County]

Not much.But sometimes they do.Bill O'reilly just now came to the realization that every citizen needs to own arms after Hurrican Katrina.The O'Reilly Factor,which claims to be "a great bastion of common sense"seems to be just as confused as the politicos he crit'ics in in government.At least he woke up on this issue though.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Ever since first posting on this thread I've noticed a strange phenomenon--every time I turn on my phone I hear three distinct clicks before I hear a dial tone. A friend also heard it. I had never heard that before.

Do you suppose simply discussing this subject has put us on a list of suspected terrorists?

 

[Don Gwinn]

Like alot of you, the first time my bro., mentioned the word Militia, my mind went to the Hollywood sterio-type of the neo-nazi groups and others.

Don't forget the really fat guys in gigantic BDU's.

 

[Attala_County]

Lobotomy,i wouldn't doubt it.That should not make us waver in our free speech though.I dont think you will.Just reminding you that the government should never be able to intimidate us from healthy discussion.

Does the government think you are a terrorist?Well,I found a terrorism brochure that the FBI was passing out to law enforcement officers.Look at it yourself at Keep And Bear Arms web site.(scroll half way down the page and under "Read The Flyer For Yourself" click on "front page" and then "back page")Here's the link http://keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2126

Potential terrorists are defined as "defenders of the Constitution","people who make numerous references to the Constitution."Also,there is no mention of Islamic Jihadists as terrorists.But the first ones on the list are patriots ,defenders of the Constitution

This brochure is just another example of the propaganda masters of the federal government chipping away at the people's patriotism.They are conditioning law-abiding citizens not to resist when government attempts to take your liberty.Especially the liberty to keep and bear arms if they come to confiscate.


Don Gwinn,lets not forget that you are a militia member as well.In fact,you know as well as i do that many National Guard and Police Officers are fat.Let's not just demonize the citizens.

The majority remains that Miltia Members,National Guard,Police Officers are not fat.

 

[Molon Labe]

Ever since first posting on this thread I've noticed a strange phenomenon--every time I turn on my phone I hear three distinct clicks before I hear a dial tone. A friend also heard it. I had never heard that before.

Do you suppose simply discussing this subject has put us on a list of suspected terrorists?

Are you being serious or facetious? Assuming the former, the answer is no, the clicks do not indicate your line is bugged. I mean, think about it... if the feds bugged your line, do you really think they would use a device that left an audible click? I'm an EE, so trust me on this: if the feds bugged your telephone line, you would never know it.

 

[Attala_County]

I doubt very seriously the government would tap your phone.But discussing the "Militia" in a positive manner may possibly put you on some kind of potential terrorist list.Hell,Senator Larry Craig and Ted Kennedy have showed up on those kind of lists before and in one case a pro-gun congressman(can't remember his name) showed up on that kind of list and wasn't allowed to board a plane.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

I'm serious about the clicking. The rest was just thinking out loud.

That FBI brochure was fascinating, especially in light of the Bush administration's admission that it is using the NSA to monitor U.S. citizens without warrants.

 

[Molon Labe]

discussing the "Militia" in a positive manner may possibly put you on some kind of potential terrorist list.

Nonsense. I've never been secretive about my involvement in the militia, yet I've had no problem getting a government security clearance, no problems boarding a plane, etc.

 

[Molon Labe]

I'm serious about the clicking. The rest was just thinking out loud.

That FBI brochure was fascinating, especially in light of the Bush administration's admission that it is using the NSA to monitor U.S. citizens without warrants.

Dude, they're not watching you. Paranoia will destroy ya....

 

[Biker]

Dude, they're not watching you. Paranoia will destroy ya....

Paranoia isn't paranoia if it turns out to be true.

Biker

 

[spartacus2002]

The situation was very different then. The colonists had little or no voice in their government.

That is not the case now. Anyone can have a voice in the government, all they have to do is choose to participate in it.

Please don't take this personally, but the above is a tremendously naive, if well-intentioned, statement.

The vast majority of legislators pay little attention to our voices unless they see some personal/political gain for themselves. Even on an issue like illegal immigration, which has so many people supporting stopping it, Congress is hemming and hawing.

Unless you have a bunch of money to donate, are a bigwig in a Party, or are part of the voting bloc upon which that politician depends, forget it. Hell, the Congress authorized the USA PATRIOT Act without even having read it! And you expect THAT august body to listen to their constituents like Mr. Smith Goes To Washington?

I'm all for writing my Senators/Congressman, but unless you have hundreds and thousands of your fellows doing the same don't expect to change their minds from their Party's dogma.

 

[Jeff White]

Please don't take this personally, but the above is a tremendously naive, if well-intentioned, statement. The vast majority of legislators pay little attention to our voices unless they see some personal/political gain for themselves. Even on an issue like illegal immigration, which has so many people supporting stopping it, Congress is hemming and hawing.

Actually, the above sounds tremendously cynical. The vast majority of the legislators do in fact pay attention to their constituants. Congress is hemming an hawing on the immigration issue because the Democrats want the illegals as a constituancy and the republicans want the cheap labor. But as soon as a real groundswell of public opinion hits they will stop looking inside the beltway and do something. The American people usually get what they want, even if it's not the right idea.

Unless you have a bunch of money to donate, are a bigwig in a Party, or are part of the voting bloc upon which that politician depends, forget it. Hell, the Congress authorized the USA PATRIOT Act without even having read it! And you expect THAT august body to listen to their constituents like Mr. Smith Goes To Washington?

You don't have to be a party big wig to make your voice heard. First you need to join a party. I'm a lowly precenct committeeman and I get more personal contact from the candidates and officials then I care to have. Most legislation is passed without being read. Not that that's a good thing, but with bills that are thousands of pages in length it's the way things are.

They do listen to constituants, just like in Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Only nowdays the constituants have to have numbers behind them.

I'm all for writing my Senators/Congressman, but unless you have hundreds and thousands of your fellows doing the same don't expect to change their minds from their Party's dogma.

The way to change the party's dogma is to become a member of party and change it from within. Are you really advocating that you'll be better represented if you arm yourself and make implied threats? That's what the militia movement is doing.

The militia is part of the government. It's created in the constitution and defined in public law. The constitution makes the president the commander in chief of the armed forces, to include the militia of the several states.

Any militia that doesn't accept the president as it's commander in chief and fails to abide by the provisions of federal and state law concerning the militia is nothing more then a rogue unit. In other countries, rogue units are disbanded and their members imprisoned or executed.

the members of these so called militias are not patriots, but are either extremists who see armed conflict or the threat of it as the only way their voice can be heard, or people who are living out some TETOWAKI scenario in their mind, or good people who have been duped by the extremists who lead these organizations.

Patriots participate in the system. We change our government by peaceful means in this country.

Jeff

Jeff

 

[Lambo]

Link, http://www.michiganmilitia.com

 

[Attala_County]

"the members of these so called militias are not patriots, but are either extremists who see armed conflict or the threat of it as the only way their voice can be heard, or people who are living out some TETOWAKI scenario in their mind, or good people who have been duped by the extremists who lead these organizations."--Jeff White
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true.

Militias take part in the system as much as any other people.Militias believe that they should use the political process as long as peacfull resistance to tyranny is possible.Its still very possible.

 

[HonorsDaddy]

Actually, the above sounds tremendously cynical. The vast majority of the legislators do in fact pay attention to their constituants.

Uh-huh, and Santa Claus is real.

The militia is part of the government.

Not true. The militia is the people. They may be called up by the government at certain times, but they are not of the government.

It's created in the constitution

No it isnt.

and defined in public law.

Yes it is - and you should read that law before you make uninformed statements.

The constitution makes the president the commander in chief of the armed forces, to include the militia of the several states.

Not entirely true. He is the CinC, but he is not in command of the militia of the states - either the select militia (the National Guard) or the unorganized militia - except when certain conditions are met.

Any militia that doesn't accept the president as it's commander in chief and fails to abide by the provisions of federal and state law concerning the militia is nothing more then a rogue unit.

I dont believe that is entirely the case, but until i can find the appropriate statues, i'm not going to definitively say otherwise.

In other countries, rogue units are disbanded and their members imprisoned or executed.

Note the first 3 words of that sentence.

the members of these so called militias are not patriots, but are either extremists who see armed conflict or the threat of it as the only way their voice can be heard, or people who are living out some TETOWAKI scenario in their mind, or good people who have been duped by the extremists who lead these organizations.

I submit to you that you are incorrect, but even if you were right, so what? As long as they commit no illegal act, what do you care? It is their right.

Patriots participate in the system.

Sometiimes that means they invoke Rule .308, or at least the threat thereof.

We change our government by peaceful means in this country.

Really? Seems to me the last two major changes in this nation's government were through less than peaceful means. Did I misunderstand my history teacher's assesement of the late 1700's and mid 1800's?

 

[Attala_County]

Originally Posted by Jeff White:
"The constitution makes the president the commander in chief of the armed forces, to include the militia of the several states."
==========================================================

Not true.The Governor is Commander in Chief of the militia unless its called up in service to the nation.Which is only done under extreme conditions.Such as an invasion.

Even still:

The President, and government, will only control the militia when a part of them is in the actual service of the federal government, else, they are independent and not under the command of the president or the government. The states would control the militia, only when called out into the service of the state, and then the governor would be commander in chief where enumerated in the respective state constitution. -- Alexander Hamilton in Federalist Paper No. 69

 

[Lambo]

Wouldn't Local Control be the County Sheriff?